Things That Make No Sense to Me

[ilivenanigloo]

I am a new snake owner and I have been some reading and finding things that don't quite make sense.

1) No cohabitation, EVER! They will eat each other no matter what!

 

[ilivenanigloo]

UGH! That wasn't supposed to happen!

Continuing:

1) If snakes are so willing to eat each other over mice, why bother feeding them mice? I realize I kind of exaggerated, but the point is it doesn't make sense rat snakes will necessarily eat each other. There are people who say it's rare, so what's the real deal? I know someone with about 10 corns in a large enclosure (he has a petting zoo set up) and they all seem fine.

2) When they do cohabitate, they huddle for warmth. Aren't they ectotherms? Why would an animal seek heat from an animal that can't produce heat? Or is this like using a warm rock?

OK, that's all I have for now.

 

[Nanci]

If they live together, as adults, it's rare for them to eat each other, or fight, but it does happen. We just had an experienced breeder who lost two males when one female ate one and one female killed her mate. It's not unusual for people to put snakes together for breeding. This goes to show that no matter how much you know, how well things have gone in the past, there can come a day when two cohabbed snakes can have a conflict with one or both dying.

Snakes don't huddle together for warmth, or because they like each other. They are found in the same spot because each one has decided that those are the perfect conditions to be in at that time, and is not so afraid of the other snake as to avoid the area. So they both want to be under the board, and neither is willing to abandon the area in order to be alone. However, they have the whole outdoors to escape to, if they want, and aren't trapped in a tiny area with another snake, where they have to choose between solitude or warmth/perfect cover/coolness, etc.

 

[starsevol]

UGH! That wasn't supposed to happen!

Continuing:

1) If snakes are so willing to eat each other over mice, why bother feeding them mice? I realize I kind of exaggerated, but the point is it doesn't make sense rat snakes will necessarily eat each other. There are people who say it's rare, so what's the real deal? I know someone with about 10 corns in a large enclosure (he has a petting zoo set up) and they all seem fine.

2) When they do cohabitate, they huddle for warmth. Aren't they ectotherms? Why would an animal seek heat from an animal that can't produce heat? Or is this like using a warm rock?

OK, that's all I have for now.

Snakes are solitary animals. They do not huddle for warmth, they are competing for space. In nature they only come together to breed. Snakes do not "like" each other, or get "lonely". Snakes are not very bright, and if you feed two together, they may both grab the same food item, and just swallow, eating the other snake.
If snakes are kept together, they are under constant inescapable stress. This stress can contribute to regurgitation, bad sheds and other health issues and can shorten their life expectancy. Your friend that keeps 10 snakes in a tank is really hurting his animals, and I consider co habbing to be animal cruelty.

Imagine if you were locked in a room with someone you really really hated, and were forced to be with that person every minute of your life. Don't you think your health would be affected?

 

[ghosthousecorns]

Cannibalism is rare but happens. But there are many other good reasons not to cohabitate. Nobody has mentioned this one yet so I want to add that if you have a male and female together, she is at risk of getting bred too young and getting eggbound. And even if she is big enough to breed, she should not have to go through it unless the owner has actual breeding plans and has researched how to do it. Every year we have a few "oops I found eggs" threads around here... drives me crazy

 

[ilivenanigloo]

Cannibalism is rare but happens. But there are many other good reasons not to cohabitate. Nobody has mentioned this one yet so I want to add that if you have a male and female together, she is at risk of getting bred too young and getting eggbound. And even if she is big enough to breed, she should not have to go through it unless the owner has actual breeding plans and has researched how to do it. Every year we have a few "oops I found eggs" threads around here... drives me crazy

Yeah, my sister's cockatiel got egg bound...twice. It's not pretty. In no was I under the impression that snakes need company; that's one of the reasons I like them. I am actually thinking about getting another snake and it would be awesome not to have to buy another tank, which is part of why I am asking. In accordance with ya'll's advice, I will be keeping them separate. I will probably get a male since I have a female and they need to be separated anyway, so breeding shouldn't be an issue. Also, maybe, possibly, but probably not, I may want to breed them after a few years of experience and researching the matter. Just having the option would be nice; it's a cute idea, but it's expensive and may not ever be a practical or sensible option for me.

Of course, there is the possibility the little escape artists are also entrance artists and I could wind up with 15 or so cute little accidents with no effort on my part. That would suck. I mean, it happens all the time and snakes are fine (otherwise there would be no snakes!) but that's no excuse for going about haphazard breeding and not considering the consequences of having strong hormones around. Have you ever heard of snakes breeding despite separate enclosures?

The other reason is just to get some clarification on what exactly goes on when 2 snakes live together since I've heard so many vastly different things. Obviously wild snakes avoid each other, but they also hibernate in in dens, but that's probably more due to the, "Hey, this spot is too nice to leave, so you leave if you don't like me being around," sort of attitude people have mentioned. Plus, if they're hibernating, they're probably too dormant minded to care.

How do snakes sleep/hibernate, anyway? I would imagine sleep would difficult for an animal lacking eyelids. I imagine it's more of a prolonged period of extreme laziness, like most hibernation.

And yes, as an introvert, I totally understand not wanting someone else around, especially if I don't have the option of leaving (or kicking them out). But, hey, maybe snakes are cuddly creatures who develop deep emotional bonds with tank-fellows but they're too obsessed with keeping up their callused appearance to show it. Deep down, all they want is LOVE!!! unch:

 

[ghosthousecorns]

They just kind of go into a torpid state, their body temps drop and since they are not expending any energy they usually don't suffer any harm from a prolonged period of inactivity like this, although it is normal they lose a little weight over the winter. A snake kept in a warm temp is naturally more active because they are ectotherms.

The hibernaculums (I think that is how it is spelled) that snakes use are often the same ones year after year. I can imagine there are not that many places underground to go in winter when it gets below freezing, a snake that freezes will die so the presence of many together is a safety in numbers thing, more bodies = more insulation? Perhaps someone else can she morre light on this

In no way did I want to discourage you from the experience of breeding a clutch of snake eggs and hatching them it is one of the the most rewarding things you can do as a keeper. The "oops" clutches just get me

 

[Stormy]

A good example of why snakes should not be kept together.
we went to the pet store a few weeks ago and they had ball pythons. The women told us the one kept getting returned to the store because he was really mean and territorial. So we asked to see him. They had two ball pythons in the same tank, only one hide, the tank was way to hot. The mean one was pretty mean, but we quickly figured out he was that mean because they only had one tiny log hide for them that was barley big enough for both of them to hide in and he was defending his territory.

I also quickly found out the cornsnakes were also being kept together so we looked at those to, one was very very tiny. Looked like they just got it in it was so small. And the other was double its size. I dont doubt that tiny one will get eatten soon if it is not bought first because pet stores like petsmart and petco (depending on the manager from my experience) tend to underfeed their snakes. Which is probably why yours was so hungry when you got it home.
But it sounds like you have a good match! Post some photos when you have a chance

 

[EsotericForest]

The real reason for no co-hab is that it's simply not worth the possible risks of one snake inflicting injury on the other, or passing along illness to the other. Yes, it can be done, but most argue that it's just not worth it. Corn snakes aren't social animals, so it doesn't even come naturally to them...which COULD cause additional stress.

Also, they more than likely aren't huddling together for warmth...it's more likely that they're both just on the best possible heat source and hiding spot, so they're forced to be in the same area together.

 

[ilivenanigloo]

In no way did I want to discourage you from the experience of breeding a clutch of snake eggs and hatching them it is one of the the most rewarding things you can do as a keeper. The "oops" clutches just get me

You didn't! I just wanted to clarify that it's not something I am going to just jump into and it really is up in the air. I am thinking that if I do get a second snake I am going to try to get an amelanistic male in case I do decide to breed them one day since that seems to be the combination that would produce the most varied offspring with an anerythristic.

Also, for further clarification, I saw others on other sites (yes, more than 1) saying snakes huddle for warmth, which doesn't seem possible. The ridiculous notion is not of my own design! Maybe the people who said that meant they will huddle together for warmth in the sense that if huddling is the only way to get close to whatever heat source, they will. That does make sense.

Oh, and this is my snake. I have two other pictures in my album and I intend to take more soon. I think she's an anerythristic corn snake.

 

[Asbit]

First of all, cute little snake.

I agree with the others that have said some people have co-habbed successfully but there is always multiple risks involved. For myself it is just not worth the risk.

I would also tend to say that if co-habbing is going to be attempted it should be done by someone who is very experientially knowledgeable with corn snakes. It should not be done with mixed sexes, in fact it preferably only with females, each snake should be sexed multiple times with the same result before considering co-habbing. It should not be done with snakes who are younger than sub-adult and adults. and each snake should have been housed seperately and closely monitored first so that the owner can get to know each snake's personality. The person also needs to have the time to closely watch the snakes once added together. This way they can see changes in behavior and personality, as they are the best indicators of stress before things get out of hand and the snake becomes so stressed it either gets ill, starts to regurge, go off feed, have bad sheds etc.

Personally, I know breeders who very successfully co-habb some of their snakes with out ill effects. Having said that they got to know each snake while being housed individually first and they closely monitor each snake who is in a co-habb set up. As well the co-habb set up is very large with multiple levels, hides and areas so that the snakes can get away from each other(which I personally have seen that they will separate themselves).

* NOTE: This is not to say that there have been no risks, there are always risks when co-habbing is done and as I mentioned above my self I feel that I can not take that chance with my snakes.

As well I just thought I would link you to the Corn Snake Calculator, so that you can input varies genes/morphs and see what you would get should you decide to breed. Amel X Anery will result in a clutch of all Normal corn snakes as Normal is the dominant gene, unless there are some other hidden genes in one or both snakes that you are unaware of.

I am not really good with genetics yet(still learning) but the simplest way I can put it is for you to have more than Normals to hatch out you need each parent to carry a specific gene either in the homo or het state.

When a gene physically shows it's self(homo) it is called the Phenotype ex: Anery

When a gene is carried by the snake but is not physically expressed/seen(het) it is called Genotype ex: het Amel

One step further just to add to the confusion is possibly het(might carry), which is when there is a pairing that makes the babies have a chance of carrying a gene but not for sure. ex: ph Amel

So for this example I will use the Anery and Amel genes as they are the ones you mentioned. Let's say your Anery is actually Anery het Amel and you buy and Amel het Anery. The way you write their breeding is Anery het Amel X Amel het Anery, this is the potential offspring.

25.0% Anery het Amel
25.0% Amel het Anery
25.0% Normal het Anery, Amel
25.0% Snow (Amel, Anery )

Now another way to get the Anery and Amel genes is to buy a Snow as it's genetic make up is Anery and Amel in the homo state and when this Phenotype was expressed it got named Snow. So next ex. Let's say your Anery is just an Anery no other hets(hidden genes) and you bred it to a Snow. Anery X Snow here are the potential off spring:

100% Anery het Amel

This is because the only gene that was in the pairing twice was Anery, is it starting to make sense?

Hope that helps some, but I am sure it is clear as mud.

Here is that link for the Calculator http://www.corncalc.com/

 

[ilivenanigloo]

Thanks for the info!

As for genetics, I do have a basic (very basic) understanding of genetics, so you did make some sense. Figuring out which patterns are Dominant/recessive, dominant dominant or recessive recessive is tricky and would take quite a bit of research. The more complex genetics (when the punette square consists of more than 4 boxes) still confuse me a bit, having not had biology in a few years. I have no idea what my anerythristic snake is, having gotten her at a pet store. Thanks for the calculator, but how does it work? Is the first column the offspring and then the male and female column say what the parents have to be? Only thing I could figure.

I was looking at the anerythristcs on that website and they were all an^a an^a. The amelanistics were all a^a a^a. The snows are shown as a^a a^a an^a an^a Are they all homozygous or just the ones they were showing or do I just understand how they are posting their genetic makeups?

I know some traits are just incompatible and will produce normals. It seemed to me that no red (hence an-erythr) and no black (an-melanin) could produce a white snake and that site seems to think so too. But apparently anerythritics are just boring to breed as far as varied offspring is concerned. Amelanistic and snows are still worth a shot since I'd be getting normals with anything else I may breed her with.

 

[Asbit]

Ok let's take your questions one at a time:

I will start with the gen calculator,

the first column is the Locus which is the name of the gene on a specific spot in the genetic code(put simply), ex: the gene or Anery or Amel or Motley.

The second column is where you select the genetic make up of the dad.

The third column is where you select the genetic make up of the mom.

Below the column is a click button that says percentage and if you click it, once you have entered the genetic info and clicked calculate, it will show you the potential off spring on the right of the columns and it will show you the percentage break downs.

Now your Anery was from a pet store so the only thing you know for sure about it is the fact that it is homo for Anery(it shows Anery or simpler put you need Anery to make it look that way). I am unsure if you know it's sex but for the example we are going to say it is the dad. Now you would go to the Locus column for Anery and under drop down under the male column select Anery.

Let's say you bought another Anery female(just to keep things really simple) and it was from a breeder and they told you she was not het for anything. You would then go to the Locus column and look for Anery and in the corresponding drop down under female you would select Anery.

Now you have selected all of the genes at play(that you are aware of) remember your pet shop purchase may or may not have surprise genes. So now click the calculate button and you will see that you are going to get:

100% Anery

This is because the only gene represented in both parents was Anery.

Now this is just a computer program it can not account for unknowns, such as the possibility that your pet store purchase might have hidden genes.

So let's take another ex. and say that your Anery is actually Anery het Amel (amel is a very common gene) and you bought a Snow hoping to prove whether or not your Anery had Amel as a hidden gene.

I was looking at the anerythristcs on that website and they were all an^a an^a. The amelanistics were all a^a a^a. The snows are shown as a^a a^a an^a an^a Are they all homozygous or just the ones they were showing or do I just understand how they are posting their genetic makeups?

The genetic make up of a Snow is full or homo Amel and full or homo Anery, meaning both parents had to carry both genes in either the homo or het form to be able to make a Snow. If one parent had both genes and one parent only had one gene you would not get the Snow that is why they show the gene code for both Anery and Amel genes being present under Snow(hopefully that makes sense).

So the pairing of your Anery(if we are saying it carries Amel) to a Snow would be entered into the calculator like this.

Still going with your Anery as the male.

Under the Locus column find Anery and the corresponding drop down under male and select Anery, then under the Locus column find Amel and the corresponding drop down under male and select het Amel.

Going with the Snow as the female, you would look under Locus to find Anery and and the corresponding drop down under female and select Anery, then under the Locus column find Amel and the corresponding drop down under female and select Amel.

Click percentage button and click calculate and it will tell you:
50.0% Anery het Amel
50.0% Snow ( Amel, Anery )

So if you bred your Anery to a Snow and the above were the results then you would know for sure that your Anery was actually Anery het Amel. You would then have proved your Anery to be carrying the Amel gene.

If you did that pairing and got still got 100% Aneries then you know that your Anery is not carrying the Amel gene but it still may be carrying other genes. As well because you had done the breeding of Anery to Snow at the very least you would have 100% Anery 50% ph Amel which means that because one parent had the Amel gene then 50% of the babies will carry it and 50% will not(but I still have no idea how you would tell).

But apparently anerythritics are just boring to breed as far as varied offspring is concerned. Amelanistic and snows are still worth a shot since I'd be getting normals with anything else I may breed her with.

So hopefully you can see that trying to breed for a desired result when you have no idea what a snake is carrying gene wise not as simple as "I like how these snakes look can I breed them and get these?" There is a lot of genetic background information that has to be understood and known first. Then if you do not know the background genetics you need to prove them out as I showed in one of the examples above.

Finally I can not help you with the Punnet Squares I have never done one yet as I am still learning the genetics and having to do a lot of reading, research, asking questions, confirming what i think I understand, getting help from my husband and members here and esp. Susan's genetic tutorial on here and Charles Pritzel's book "Genetics For Herpers".

*p.s. playing with the two genetic calculators helps me out to understand as well, that and learning what genes are needed for each morph. Here is a link to another genetic calculator. http://geneticcalculator.traxxtec.de/en/rechner.aspx

 

[ilivenanigloo]

The genetic make up of a Snow is full or homo Amel and full or homo Anery, meaning both parents had to carry both genes in either the homo or het form to be able to make a Snow. If one parent had both genes and one parent only had one gene you would not get the Snow that is why they show the gene code for both Anery and Amel genes being present under Snow(hopefully that makes sense).

OK, so snow is recessive? Is anery recessive? It sounds like two of the same alleles are needed for these phenotypes to manifest.

So hopefully you can see that trying to breed for a desired result when you have no idea what a snake is carrying gene wise not as simple as "I like how these snakes look can I breed them and get these?" There is a lot of genetic background information that has to be understood and known first. Then if you do not know the background genetics you need to prove them out as I showed in one of the examples above.

Genetics are anything but simple! I guess if I can get a male snow, I will do that so that, if they do breed, I will know what my anerythristic's genetic makeup is.

Finally I can not help you with the Punnet Squares I have never done one yet as I am still learning the genetics and having to do a lot of reading, research, asking questions, confirming what i think I understand, getting help from my husband and members here and esp. Susan's genetic tutorial on here and Charles Pritzel's book "Genetics For Herpers".

Punett squares are fairly simple, as long as you're sure you know what alleles you're talking about.

Example: You're friend is going to have a baby! What sex and what eye color will it have? The parents both have brown eyes. Brown eyes are dominant, blue eyes are recessive. Let dominant Brown be represented by B and recessive blue be represented by b. Since brown is dominant, the parents may have the recessive allele and not show it, which will be known if a child of theirs has blue eyes

Mother: Bb Father: Bb

....B b
B BB Bb
b Bb bb

So, 25% chance the kid will have blue eyes, 25% chance it's homo for brown and 50% chance it's het for brown and blue.

Sex would be done the same way. (Mother=XX, Father=XY) For added fun, do two traits at once!

That may or may not help; you may already be beyond this stage, but these are fun. :crazy02:

 

[omni]

But apparently anerythritics are just boring to breed as far as varied offspring is concerned.

Oh Anerys are anything but boring! You already know Snow uses Anerythrism, there are other morphs: Granite, Avalanche, Ghost to name a few. Granted they are all somewhere in the 'gray-scale' color, but in combo with another or more genes, you have some really varied looks. There is also a member or 2 here that looks to breed toward an all-black anery or morph, a super-melanistic. Charcoal is aka Anery B, similiar alone, but in combo, is pretty different looking than Anery A.
Don't give up on Anerys since you already have one, and might get into breeding in the future! And Good Luck because I already see how your thinking of the hobby, and I know it's got you- You have the Bug!!

 

[ilivenanigloo]

Oh Anerys are anything but boring! You already know Snow uses Anerythrism, there are other morphs: Granite, Avalanche, Ghost to name a few. Granted they are all somewhere in the 'gray-scale' color, but in combo with another or more genes, you have some really varied looks. There is also a member or 2 here that looks to breed toward an all-black anery or morph, a super-melanistic. Charcoal is aka Anery B, similiar alone, but in combo, is pretty different looking than Anery A.

Oooh, neat! An almost solid black corn (like the almost solid whites) would be pretty!

Don't give up on Anerys since you already have one, and might get into breeding in the future! And Good Luck because I already see how your thinking of the hobby, and I know it's got you- You have the Bug!!

Oh, I shan't give up on aneries! Especially since I have one currently. I just think a variety of F1s would be neat, but I guess I could also have an excuse to produce some F2s!

And I've wanted snakes since I was about 12 and a woman showed me her house in Raleigh, NC. She introduced me and my sisters to her bird, cats and dogs and then lead us up the stairs and opened the first door to her right. I was in total awe; it was a reptile wonderland! She had snakes of various species and an iguana and a few other things just lining her walls. Then, she walked over to her closet, opened the closet doors and showed us where she bred her mice and guinea pigs to feed the snakes. It's been my dream to have a similar set up ever since.