To be.. or Not to be... (stripe vs striped/mot)

[Quigs]

Alright genetic geeks, once again now...(but with a twist!)

First off....

A couple pictures of the suspect.

Little bit of back ground:

This is a female 04 hatch. I would call her an Anery striped/mot from reading several related threads over the last couple years and knowing what her parentage is. Her parents are: Mother is Normal het Anery, Amel, mot ~ Father is Amel het Anery, mot. I did not produce this girl but she is mine and I now also have both parents.

This pairing, to the best of my knowledge, has only been bred two years and the female double clutched both times. I do NOT believe she has EVER bred with any other male. I don't have exact numbers but I would guess they have produced somewhere in the neighborhood of 40-50 viable eggs total. Siblings to the little girl pictured above include: normals, normal mots, amels, amel mots, amel striped/mots (only 1 to the best of my memory) anerys and a couple snows.

[NOTE: No normal striped/mots, anery mots, snow mots or snow striped/mots have appeared at all. This girl (above) and the one male 03 amel stripe/mot that Zach (Shep151) now owns are the only two striped/mots.]

Time for the question...

Several of us were discussing the "cubed" relationship to stripes and striped/mots last night in the chat room. I presented one of the pictures above as a good example of a striped/mot.

It was then questioned, after hearing that both parents were only het mot, how then could this girl be what she is? And where does the stripe come from?

Thanks in advance for looking and reading. My hopes are this turns into a good conversation and/or discussion as well as a learning experience for many!

 

[Joejr14]

Welcome to the mystery of the motley, stripe and striped/motley genes at work.

 

[Jason B.]

My question in the chat was how can you know the parents are het motley? Most of us that have bred stripe x motley get mostly motley looking offspring(correct me if I'm wrong), But wouldn't they have to be motley/stripe even if they look motley? If they are motley/stripe and you bred one to a normal wouldn't the offspring be %50 het striped and %50 het motley on average? So asuming that is correct how could Quigs know both parents are het motley? A grandparent could have looked motley , but may have been motley stripe.
While we are at it, is it still believed that it's imposible or near imposible to get perfect type stripes out of a line thats been bred with motleys? I remember reading that often a while back. True or not, A prodigy predictor will tell you that you will get the stripes.

 

[cornsnake00]

This one came from a motley x het motley. They also had some stripe-motleys and motleys?

 

[JTGoff69]

is. Her parents are: Mother is Normal het Anery, Amel, mot ~ Father is Amel het Anery, mot. I did not produce this girl but she is mine and I now also have both parents.

Gorgeous girl Q, do you have pics of the parents? Some mots I've seen have produced striped/mots. Some dorsal striping is longer than others, yours seems to be an extreme version.

 

[Quigs]

From easiest to hardest...

JTGoff69~

I have never photographed the parents. To be honest, there is nothing visually spectacular about either, in my opinion. Both are very well tempered and the male is HUGE, in fact in my opinion overweight. I have only had them since mid December, he still eat quite well but has been cut back a little bit. Thanks for the compliment on her and yes, she has nearly a perfect head to tail stripe. Ironically enough, she will be going to a new home when the weather breaks a bit more...lol

cornsnake00~

From all that I have read, especially from Joe Pierce. Your snake although has a nice almost full stripe, it in fact (to me) looks as if it's actually a stripe/mot.

If you look closely and notice how the stripe jumps off pattern every now and then for a couple scales. A true striped corn, from my understanding does not do that, it will maintain a "crisp edge" if you will. But true stripes don't necessarily have solid stripes either. This is where the "cubed" look come into play. Although from true stripe genes, there may be breaks in the stripe. Does that makes any sense?

Again, I really hope someone with more experience chimes in here to correct me if I'm wrong and shines some more light on this aspect for you.

Jason B.~

LOL...I told you I was tired last night/this morning as were you, I believe. I think some wires may have been crossed and we're misunderstanding each other. OR perhaps, it was just me not thinking or expressing myself clearly.

What I was trying to tell you was, the parents of this girl are AT LEAST het mot. They are not visual mots, not even close. However, that does not rule out the possibility that they are in fact BOTH het stripe/mot.

One thing to consider though is, not that 45-50 viable eggs is alot, but only two striped/mots out of all of them? A fair share have been mots, I'll even go as far as saying close to half have been mots.

Perhaps Zach can and will post a pic of the 03 Amel striped/mot for comparison. I can't recall off hand but I don't believe it's stripe is quite as nice as this girls is. (No offence Zach...lol) As JT pointed out, this girls stripe is fairly extreme. Damn near perfect head to tail, as far as striped/mots go.

 

[Serpwidgets]

Quigs, the snake you posted is either:

m^m·m^m

or

m^m·m^s

Without breeding trials against the striped gene, nobody will know which one it is.

 

[Menhir]

I'm not quite shure what you mean by Motley/Stripe?
Thats why we use MotleyStripe for the phenotype of the snake and Motley-X-Stripe for the genotype. I know, that doesn't look nice, but I don't think it's usefull to drift into the same problems we have with bloodred by mixing pheno and genotype. (not the same with bloodred, but the same confusion)

So, I agree to Serp, I don't believe you can judge the genotype of a motley by being Motley/Stripe or normal Motley. But one question from me - has someone ever seen Motley x Motley (and I mean the "normal" ones without any tend to striping) throwing Motley/Stripe (phenotype again)???

 

[Jason B.]

From easiest to hardest...

JTGoff69~

I have never photographed the parents. To be honest, there is nothing visually spectacular about either, in my opinion. Both are very well tempered and the male is HUGE, in fact in my opinion overweight. I have only had them since mid December, he still eat quite well but has been cut back a little bit. Thanks for the compliment on her and yes, she has nearly a perfect head to tail stripe. Ironically enough, she will be going to a new home when the weather breaks a bit more...lol

cornsnake00~

From all that I have read, especially from Joe Pierce. Your snake although has a nice almost full stripe, it in fact (to me) looks as if it's actually a stripe/mot.

If you look closely and notice how the stripe jumps off pattern every now and then for a couple scales. A true striped corn, from my understanding does not do that, it will maintain a "crisp edge" if you will. But true stripes don't necessarily have solid stripes either. This is where the "cubed" look come into play. Although from true stripe genes, there may be breaks in the stripe. Does that makes any sense?

Again, I really hope someone with more experience chimes in here to correct me if I'm wrong and shines some more light on this aspect for you.

Jason B.~

LOL...I told you I was tired last night/this morning as were you, I believe. I think some wires may have been crossed and we're misunderstanding each other. OR perhaps, it was just me not thinking or expressing myself clearly.

What I was trying to tell you was, the parents of this girl are AT LEAST het mot. They are not visual mots, not even close. However, that does not rule out the possibility that they are in fact BOTH het stripe/mot.

One thing to consider though is, not that 45-50 viable eggs is alot, but only two striped/mots out of all of them? A fair share have been mots, I'll even go as far as saying close to half have been mots.

Don't think any wires were crossed. I understand your comments and I may be wrong . I would like to learn if I am. If your snake is het motley and stripe it would be a motley/stripe.
As far as your comment about two out of 45-50 being visible motley/stripe from het mot x het mot? ; that would be close enough to my one out of about seventeen being visible motley/stripe from a motley x stripe breeding to make me wonder even more.

 

[Jason B.]

cornsnake00 and JTgoff69, niether of your comments are inconsistent with what I am sugesting.

 

[cornsnake00]

Zipper effect?

Is the zipper effect common only to the stripe-motley breeding.

 

[ecreipeoj]

The biggest problem when discussing this issue is everybody’s definition of what Striped/Motley, Striped-Motley, Striped Motley and the like means. Many times, people are meaning the exact same thing, but saying it differently so it seems as if they are disagreeing, but they are not. Sometimes they think they are agreeing and they are not. I think if we are talking about a Corn with one Motley and one Striped gene we should refer to them as Motley/Stripes. Putting the striped descriptive term in front of Motley can have too many meanings. To some, it describes the pattern and to others it means the Striped gene. The Striped gene should be capitalized and the descriptive term should not be, like a striped Motley, but that is not how it is used or understood.

I know for a FACT that pure Motleys can look exactly like Quigs and Cornsnake00 photos. Cornsnake00 referred to the pattern as looking like a Zipper in another thread and from now on that is what I am calling them Zipper Motleys. We can go on and on about trying to tell the difference between a Motley/Striped, Zipper Motley, or Striped with poor striping, but you just can not tell from a single animal.

My Motley and Striped Lines go back to the beginning of their time. It is possible that they were mixed by somebody before I got them, but I have bred the lines separately for a very long time, so I have a lot of offspring to consider when stating opinions about my lines. In the past, when people produced a Motley with some dorsal striping, they saved them back. In time, more Motleys with dorsal striping were produced on a more regular basis, but it is more like producing Aztecs than a simple recessive gene. The striping on Motleys not the Motley gene itself. I am more inclined to believe that Motleys with dorsal striping are Aztec Motleys than Motley/Stripes, until proven otherwise.

I also know for a FACT that Four Lined Stripes can be recovered from a Motley/Striped X Motley/Striped breedings. I think the only way to know if your Motley with dorsal striping is a Motley or a Motley/Striped is to breed them to a Striped. Striped offspring should definitely be produced. Personally, I would assume that any Motley with dorsal striping is a Motley until proven otherwise, because I know for a FACT that pure Motleys can have a complete Zipper all the way down their back and even a perfect narrow striped exactly like a Striped California King Snake without the Striped gene being involved at all.

I do not believe that the Cubes are a result of a Motley X Striped breeding at this time, but I have been know to change my opinions in time when more results come in. I believe they are pure Stripes or a new allele at the Motley locus called Cubes. If they are pure Stripes, they are just at the complete opposite end of the possibilities within that genes spectrum like the Patternless Corns are from the Striped Line. I would not rule out the possibility that the Patternless are another allele as well. The Cubes and Patternless could be caused by the introduction of another gene as well, like a Double Homo Striped and mystery gene.

The confusing part about the Cubes is they can come from Stripes or Motleys. If it is an allele, the reasoning is clear. If Cubes are actually Stripes, that are not Striped, then perhaps a Motley/Cubed Striped looks exactly like a Motley since Motley seems to be more dominant over Striped anyway. In a Cubed Stripes weakened state, a Motley/Cubed Striped could look exactly like a Motley, but when it is separated out, you get the Cubes from Motleys. This might be the case if they are alleles and not Stripes as well. A Motley/Cubed may look exactly like a Motley, if Motley is dominant over Cubed.

At this time, I would theorize that Motleys, Stripes and Cubes are alleles and their dominance over each other is in that same order. I can base my theory on very large numbers of offspring produced from my lines of Motleys and Stripes. So far, I have never produced a Motley from my Striped Lines or a Striped from my Motley lines. I have produced lots of Cubes from my Striped Line, but not one from my Motley line. This is the only reason, that I am unsure if the Cubes are an allele or just a Cubed Striped. The Cubes from others Motleys could be a result of an allele or Motleys dominance over Cubes in a Motley/Cubed Striped combo.

These Zipper Motleys have nothing at all to do with the Striped gene, however I can see that a Motley/Striped may look like them, but as long as there is no suspension that both the Striped and Motley genes are in the mix, I am going to assume they are pure Motleys until I am looking at a Four Lined Stripe that is produced from them.

Well, I think I have this written where I can understand what I said, but this topic will always be confusing to discuss, due to the @#$% *& English language.

 

[cka]

ahhh...gracia's Q ;*)...

keep forgetting she's also an anerythristic...Always loved the fact it seemed to be the pattern break down in her back was "contained" in a stripe...kinda like my aztec's, who'll (hopefully) she'll breed by '07...just hoping any sibling breedings produce a few extra scriggly lookin' patterns in the F2's someday...

 

[Shep151]

Darn it, Pat!

I can't believe it took me this long to notice this thread!

I don't believe it's stripe is quite as nice as this girls is.

Harumph! Let me refresh your memory!
Not much help on the genetics discussion here, so I'll leave you all with his pic only!
Ok, she's cuter.