Upset & Need to vent - what do you think?

[Tsuhei]

So, back in September/October of 2013 I rehomed/sold off my leopard gecko collection to different people in Arizona. Each time I sold a gecko, I told them that if there were any problems and if there was some sort of reason they could not take care of the geckos I sold them, that I would buy them back - no questions asked. Ever since I sold them, I've always regretted selling my favorite gecko, Typhon, since he is my very first leopard gecko. I raised him when he was only 4 grams and I loved every little think about him - from his personality to his silly little mouth gap he got when he bit onto tongs too hard and got gingivitis (which I had no idea geckos could get! I have vet paperwork to prove this ).

Last week, I was going through the pets section on Craigslist and was flipping through random reptile ads. To my surprise, I found my gecko, Typhon, on that ad by the same guy I originally sold him to. I was extremely concerned because I never got a call from the guy about not being able to take care of him and trying to get me to take him back. What was also concerning is that he was trying to sell Typhon for double the amount of money I originally sold him for, advertising him as two years old instead of four years old, and he was extremely skinny.

When I tried to text/call the number that was provided, I was displeased to find out that the phone number was disconnected. I wasn't getting any responses via email either. Luckily I had the guy's number back from 2013 and was able to call him. He told me that Typhon was at the vet due to not eating and being skinny.

The next day, the guy texts me back and tells me which vet he went to, which vet saw Typhon, and that he was negative for Crypto and any other parasite. When I offered to pick him up, he told me that he didn't mind making him better before giving him to me...of course, I declined since I wanted my gecko back after seeing his condition in photos (sunken in head, almost no tail fat, skinny arms/legs, and visible spine).

The guy didn't charge me anything for picking him up (which I am very grateful for - I even offered to pay him the original amount that I sold Typhon for, but the guy declined), but was hasty to leave as soon as Typhon was in my possession. When I took him home, he ate right away, no problems until he pooped.

His poop was flat, watery, and extremely smelly - basically, something was amiss and I quickly took him to Dr. Johnson at AZ Exotic Animal Hospital. When I originally gave Typhon to this guy, he was 81 grams. At the hospital, he clocked in at 34 grams and is completely loaded with flagellated protozoa and some sort of possible infection. Typhon is currently on enrofloxacin and ronidazole with pending Crytposporidium test results. My vet also mentioned that there's no way that this serious of an infection could have been overlooked. So, needless to say I'm pretty ticked off.

I decided to call the vet clinic that the guy took him to - they told me that they've never seen/heard of the guy and have never seen my gecko. They even checked all of the appointments on the day that Typhon was supposedly there.

I've asked this guy multiple times to produce the paperwork showing negative lab/fecal results. I finally got a response today saying that his phone wasn't working, he was at work/school, and that he has priorities (which I don't doubt, everyone has priorities). I did tell him that the vet might be able to send him a copy of the results via email since he's busy, but is claiming that his phone isn't able to make calls but he will be going to the vet when he can to get the paperwork.

One thing I didn't tell him is that I called the same vet office he claims he's going to get the paperwork from. I'm not sure whether I should disclose this or not, since I want to give the guy the benefit of the doubt before calling him a liar (even though I'm leaning in that direction already). I'm also waiting to see if he tries to forge vet paperwork, since I'm obviously going to bring it to that clinic's attention.

There's not much for me to complain about since I'm not really out any money (minus vet bills, but you gotta do what you gotta do for your animals ). I'm primarily concerned that he has other geckos up on Craigslist that have the same potential parasitic infection (and either he won't get them treated or sell them to people while claiming for them to be healthy).

Other than the long rant, Typhon is currently on the mend and taking icky medications that he will definitely not miss the taste of.

What do you guys think, though? I feel like this guy just couldn't handle taking care of sick geckos and was trying to make up for any losses/gain a buck without taking responsibility for them. Should I put up warnings on some local reptile sites, or how long should I wait for him to get me some paperwork that shouldn't even exist?


TLDR: I sold my first and favorite gecko to a guy in 2013. I found my gecko last week on CL and the same guy claimed that my gecko was healthy and has seen a vet. My gecko was returned to me at half his weight and is full of parasites. I haven't seen any paperwork from the guy I got my gecko back from, and I've almost had Typhon back for a week. Thoughts?

 

[Tsuhei]

I like every little thing*** about him.

I also failed to mention that he told me he was keeping his geckos at 80ºF. Pictures also show all of his geckos being kept on either moist eco earth or coco fiber...I also gave this guy lots of information about leopard gecko care and answered lots of questions back in 2013. I'm really shocked that my advice pretty much fell on deaf ears.

 

[DollysMom]

I know nothing of geckos, but I'm glad you got Typhon back and that he's on the mend. Sadly, when you sell an animal, even with the provision that you'll take him back there just are no guarantees on what the new owner will do. There probably is no good way to screen potential owners. You can talk to them and exact promises, but there is nothing else you can do. People who lie are usually very good at it and very convincing in my experience. It is very difficult to guard against them. It's frustrating because one bad owner not only harms his own animal(s), but can give all herp owners a bad name.

I'm sad that your little guy suffered. I don't really know what more you could have done. All you can do is put the buyer on your personal bad list and warn your associates/friends about him.

 

[Rich Z]

In my opinion, anyone who kills leopard geckos are not competent to have ANY animals in their possession.

 

[compasslogic]

Wow, what a scumbag. Can you report people to craigslist? He did lie about the thing he was trying to sell. If not I think you definitely have enough of a case to post about him to a buyer beware thread or something. I would hate for other people to go buying geckos from him that are in bad shape.

I can't believe he lost over half of his weight, that's just insane! Honestly, you're lucky to have gotten your baby back alive. What if you had never seen that craigslist ad? I would stay on top of this guy's case.

Also, with (good) dog breeders, the seller makes the buyer sign a contract saying that if they can not care for the animal any more or do not want it, that they have to return it to the seller. This protects breeders from having their puppies ending up abandoned in shelters. This is maybe something you could modify and use in the future to protect you from having this happen again. If this guy had signed some kind of contract like that then you could seek legal action against him.

 

[Ravenessa]

I am so sorry... Thank God you got him back!! Hope he heals up soon!

 

[Tsuhei]

I've decided to add pictures to show his condition from then vs. now. It's a real shock to see how much he's declined...the Craigslist photo is one that the guy took (probably a month prior to posting based on tail girth compared to now).

Here's the before:

Here's the ad picture:

And here's pictures from last night:

@DollysMom - I'm definitely spreading the word to people I know personally at the moment, and he's on my list of people that I won't be doing business with ever again.

@Rich Z - I agree. Leopard geckos aren't exactly a difficult reptile to take care of. What sickens me moreso is that Typhon isn't the only gecko he purchased from me. He also got a really nice female Afghan Mack Snow from me named Kokomo. I haven't seen her advertised, and he talks about her in the past tense. I'm fairly certain that she did not survive his care. I did not want to question her whereabouts before securing Typhon into my care, since I didn't want him to try to claim he was deceased while selling him to someone else behind my back.

@compasslogic - I can attempt to flag his posts, but I'd rather give him the opportunity to hand over paperwork (real or fraudulent) to add to a BOI. I did tell him about the protozoa, and advised him to seek medical care for his remaining geckos. He claims to have not sold any.... and he became defensive and told me that my gecko wasn't sold to me :shrugs: not sure how he thought that was relevant to getting veterinary attention for some potentially exposed or infected herps.

The paperwork is a good idea, though I've never seen or heard of it in practice in the reptile hobby. I like it, and I believe I'll create something in the near future.

I'm just thankful to have Typhon back... I feel terrible for letting him go to such a poor home. I should be hearing back about the crypto test this week - regardless of what paperwork is provided to me, if the test is positive, I'm going straight to the BOI with this and he can explain himself there. Luckily, I even have old texts and emails between us from the 2013 transaction.

 

[Ravenessa]

oh my god So sorry...
I really hope the female is ok..

 

[DollysMom]

First, IANAL.

While contracts are always possible, legal action is not always realistic. This is the same kind of individual that even if you get a judgement, then try to collect. Judgement enforcement can be difficult to impossible, especially when dealing with a scumbag. The remedy the courts can give are monetary. It's probably a small claims case at best.

The other route would be to use animal cruelty laws, but then you have to interest the state in enforcing the law. That could be done in this case, no contract needed.

I've just spent the last three years in civil litigation. Courts rule on the law, but that's not always the same thing as justice. I guess that's why I'm pretty cynical about the remedies contract enforcement can provide in a case like this. Scumbags are scumbags. What a contract can do is show your intent, but be realistic about enforcement going into it.

Sadly, a contract will no more protect an animal than an order of protection will actually protect a person from bodily harm. It may help encourage compliance when dealing with generally decent folks, but will do nothing to change the behavior of a scumbag. It's fine to have a contract, just be realistic about what it can and cannot achieve.:headbang:

 

[DollysMom]

P.S. When I wrote my last post I hadn't seen the pics. I'm so sorry. I'm also sorry the buyer has more of your animals. I hope you can get them back.

 

[Tsuhei]

@DollysMom - The main thing that I'd want from the paperwork is to possibly deter people like this guy. Unfortunately, as you said, it's just a piece of paper and what happens at the person's home is out of your control - and generally you don't always get to hear about what happens to the reptiles you sell or rehome. I was just lucky in this case by stumbling across him on Craigslist before he was sold off.

@Ravenessa - I hope Typhon does well, too, on his recovery. I'll probably prod this guy for information on Kokomo when I can confirm if he'll give me paperwork or not (which doesn't seem likely at this point, but I might be being too nice to this guy).

 

[Ravenessa]

I would probably fish less for paper work as he is most likely lying to cover his ass.. and fish for her so he doesn't break off contact in case he still has her..

 

[Artemisace]

This guy sounds like he needs to get out of our hobby. I live in Arizona as well and would hate to get an animal from someone like that or worse sell him an animal. I'm not much of a lizard guy but what he did to your poor little guy is just deplorable and should not be tolerated.

Sent from my SM-G920T using Tapatalk

 

[Tsuhei]

I would probably fish less for paper work as he is most likely lying to cover his ass.. and fish for her so he doesn't break off contact in case he still has her..

I'm going to message him later today to see what happened to Kokomo. At the same time, I'm afraid of asking as I am fearing for the worst of news. I will update everyone with what info I receive.

 

[Ravenessa]

Keeping fingers crossed for you <3

 

[Tsuhei]

At this point, it feels like all I'm getting is a snowball effect of lies. I'm trying to look at this situation as objectively as possible without losing myself in anger or frustration, but it's starting to get a little irritating. I'm doing my best not to express my anger toward him so he doesn't sever communication with me.

I asked for a status update on Kokomo, which he tells me she's fine, fat, and cherished by his children. He's telling me she's kept separate from everyone else, and has gained 10 grams from when I originally sold her. I asked for a picture, but have yet to receive one (of course, he's claiming to be at work so I can't really rush a photo if that's true). It also intrigues me how he was originally referring to her in past tense until today when I asked about her, which now he is referring to her in present tense. Though, I don't know if this means anything since grammar seems to slip peoples' minds.

He also keeps referring to his geckos "going through winter", so I think he's referring to brumation. He mentioned the other geckos "springing back" while Typhon wasn't. I'm thinking that he didn't properly brumate them and pretty much starved his collection - but I can't prove anything since I have no idea where the other geckos came from or how he attempts to brumate his geckos.

It seems that he keeps pinging blame onto other people, saying that his daughters and his father assist with feeding the geckos because he's busy. Then he pinged it onto his wife feeding them when he's out of the country. He admitted some fault, but only for the month of May by being busy and possibly neglectful. It just feels like excuse after excuse with no pictures, no paperwork.

Also, he said Typhon maintained his weight at 85 grams for over a year. I looked back at my records, and it looks like the exact day I sold Typhon was Friday, September 13 of 2013. So, assuming the tracking started in September or October of 2013, that means Typhon was 85 grams until September/October of 2014 or later. The ad on Craigslist showing Typhon's condition was posted near the end of May (if my math is right, based on the ad being 23 days old, it should have been posted May 24, 2015).

So, that means from at least September/October 2014 until late May of this year, Typhon lost 51 grams.

When is it okay to let your geckos get to the point of skin and bones? How could you not tell how sick he was based on his appearance and poop? How do you not know how to take care of a leopard gecko after I gave you advice and you have the internet at your fingertips? :headbang:

 

[Ravenessa]

awww I am sorry... Keeping fingers crossed <3 <3

 

[Myca]

I'm amazed you recognized your gecko. So sorry you went through that. Hopefully he recovers. I have always liked geckos, I have never had one.

 

[Nanci]

Cute little guy. Glad you got him back.