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what kind of corn?
- Thread starter revxus
- Start date
I also thought it was a beautiful corn myself, thanx for the compliment there - I'm sure if Pluto could talk he'd also say the same. =)
The breeder told me it was a normal phase anery, but I have seen pix of these guys and they look different - mine seems to lack the orange/red pigment. I guess it seems like a cross between an anery and a ghost? I'm not sure. I am just beginning to learn about these guys. =)
The breeder told me it was a normal phase anery, but I have seen pix of these guys and they look different - mine seems to lack the orange/red pigment. I guess it seems like a cross between an anery and a ghost? I'm not sure. I am just beginning to learn about these guys. =)
Darin Chappell
Very Senior Hillbilly
It's difficult to tell what it IS from the angle shown, but it's not hard to say that it is not an anery or a ghost of any type. It may very well be a miami phase, but what degree of miami is tough to see. The outlines of the saddles appear very black, so I doubt it is hypomelanistic. Until further evidence (pics from other angles) is available, the best guess I could offer is that your snake is a normal, possibly toward the miami phase end of that spectrum.
Darin Chappell
Very Senior Hillbilly
This is far from a definitive identification, mind you, but that sanke looks like it has emoryi in it to me. The saddle count, shape, and coloration all say "rootbeer corn," and it may be a normal colored offspring from someone's creamsicle project.
Again, it's impossible to tell from just a picture, but did the place from where you got the animal have any creamsicles for sale by chance? If so, I would question him/her/them about the possibility of your animal having Great Plains Rat snake (E.g.emoryi) in its heritage.
If it does turn out to have emoryi blood, that's not necessarily a bad thing, but many people are against the idea of intergrades, and that might affect your future decisions about whether you breed the animal, or not. Of course, it has no effect on the ability of the animal to serve as a wonderful pet!
Pure speculation on my part, based on some experience with creamsicles and rootbeer corns. Let us know, if you find anything out more concretely.
Again, it's impossible to tell from just a picture, but did the place from where you got the animal have any creamsicles for sale by chance? If so, I would question him/her/them about the possibility of your animal having Great Plains Rat snake (E.g.emoryi) in its heritage.
If it does turn out to have emoryi blood, that's not necessarily a bad thing, but many people are against the idea of intergrades, and that might affect your future decisions about whether you breed the animal, or not. Of course, it has no effect on the ability of the animal to serve as a wonderful pet!
Pure speculation on my part, based on some experience with creamsicles and rootbeer corns. Let us know, if you find anything out more concretely.
When I first saw it, I thought it was a beauty! I still do, but as I began my research into these corns I knew that this guy was different in the coloration and patterns. I guess we will never know for sure, unless I actually ask the breeder... though when I brought up the question to him, he said the anery type is a cornsnake which lacks red pigment and it's a "paler" color - somewhere around those lines is what he made me understand.
He did have other that look very similar and I believe he may still have more, I bought it for $29.95 - the cheapest price in his corns.
I will approach him about it once again, although he's a reputable breeder in this town and I always buy from him I sure hope he doesn't find it offensive when I approach him.
And in regards to the rat snake's bloodline topic, are there any disadvantages to this if indeed this really happened? Why would people disagree with the crossing of these species?
He did have other that look very similar and I believe he may still have more, I bought it for $29.95 - the cheapest price in his corns.
I will approach him about it once again, although he's a reputable breeder in this town and I always buy from him I sure hope he doesn't find it offensive when I approach him.
And in regards to the rat snake's bloodline topic, are there any disadvantages to this if indeed this really happened? Why would people disagree with the crossing of these species?
Darin Chappell
Very Senior Hillbilly
Hybrids are much more offensive to many people because they are the crossing of two separate species (Cal King and Corn, for instance), but intergrades, the crossing of two sub-species (Great Plains Rat and Corn, for example), is still a problem for those wanting pure corns.
Although the genetics of the two situations is different, the analogy of what transpires in people's minds is the same in relation to the pure bred dog versus the good ol' "Heintz 57" variety. Everyone knows that mixed breeds make good pets, but they are not breeding material for those that want to raise champion show dogs. In fact, they are not even fit for those who just want a purebred pet for any reason. What if you had specifically paid $400 for a purebred german shepherd, and you later found out it had a beagle ancestor? It doesn't change the reality of the dog's attitude, conformation, or beauty; in fact, it may look like the best german shepherd ever. Even so, YOU KNOW it's not a purebred dog, and that makes it valueless for the purposes for which you bought it.
The same is true for intergrade corns. They may look exactly like every other corn in the show, but if it has emoryi blood in it, it is worthless to those who are looking for purebred corns only. That doesn't make them good or bad, it just means that many people are not interested in purchasing them.
What this fact DOES mean for an intergrade owner, is that he has a tremendous responsibility to never allow that animal to produce offspring, which would be labeled as anything other than intergrade babies. Why? Because if he permits his produced offspring (no matter how many generations down the road) to be passed off as pure corns, he has rung a bell that cannot be unrung. Once that emoryi blood has been passed into the corn genetics, it is impossible to later remove it.
Just some things to consider before you start to breed your snake. Hope it all helps --
Although the genetics of the two situations is different, the analogy of what transpires in people's minds is the same in relation to the pure bred dog versus the good ol' "Heintz 57" variety. Everyone knows that mixed breeds make good pets, but they are not breeding material for those that want to raise champion show dogs. In fact, they are not even fit for those who just want a purebred pet for any reason. What if you had specifically paid $400 for a purebred german shepherd, and you later found out it had a beagle ancestor? It doesn't change the reality of the dog's attitude, conformation, or beauty; in fact, it may look like the best german shepherd ever. Even so, YOU KNOW it's not a purebred dog, and that makes it valueless for the purposes for which you bought it.
The same is true for intergrade corns. They may look exactly like every other corn in the show, but if it has emoryi blood in it, it is worthless to those who are looking for purebred corns only. That doesn't make them good or bad, it just means that many people are not interested in purchasing them.
What this fact DOES mean for an intergrade owner, is that he has a tremendous responsibility to never allow that animal to produce offspring, which would be labeled as anything other than intergrade babies. Why? Because if he permits his produced offspring (no matter how many generations down the road) to be passed off as pure corns, he has rung a bell that cannot be unrung. Once that emoryi blood has been passed into the corn genetics, it is impossible to later remove it.
Just some things to consider before you start to breed your snake. Hope it all helps --
I understand now. I never thought of mating this corn with another, but in the future I am sure I will make plans for it. I guess I should probably invest in another type, or consider an exchange even if I have to pay a difference in price to something like an albino or okeetee type. But thanks a lot for your help, you do have lots of knowledge indeed and these postings will help me better understand this issue and approach the breeder. He may just think I don't know much about it, but I am learning.
CornCrazy
What's one more???
The breeder may have meant that the snake was normal het anery. I would definitely contact the breeder to find out. I am not against hybrids and intergrades, but I am definitely against misrepresenting those crosses. Darin is right...breeding hybrids and intergrades does come with a lot of responsibility...
Here is a picture of an anery, by the way...
I am posting it for comparisons purposes. Your snake has the red pigment, whereas anerys don't.
Here is a picture of an anery, by the way...
I am posting it for comparisons purposes. Your snake has the red pigment, whereas anerys don't.
Attachments
J_Daniels
New member
And besides, if it does turn out to be a Rootbeer produced from someone trying to get Creamsicles, all you would have to do to breed this beauty, without really worrying about the "gene-crossing" issue is purchase yourself a nice Creamsicle of the opposite sex.
In my area at least, Creams sell like crazy, because noone locally produces them on a yearly basis.
Just a though.
JCD
In my area at least, Creams sell like crazy, because noone locally produces them on a yearly basis.
Just a though.
JCD
Darin Chappell
Very Senior Hillbilly
Well, that's all a person has to do for HIMSELF/HERSELF not to be worried about the whole "gene-crossing" issue, but what about the people to whom you sell those offspring? What will THEY do with them? And the people to whom they sell???
It never ends, and that's the problem. Once the genes have been crossed, there is no uncrossing them. If the resulting intergrades were sterile, there wouldn't be an issue at all, but they are not. They can pass those polluted genes (and they are polluted as surely as roses are weeds if you are TRYING to grow dandelions) on to subsequent generations. However, once the babies are out of your hands, you have no control over how they will be bred, sold, or represented.
That is why breeding intergrades and hybrids is SUCH a huge responsibility. You have to take steps to make certain that your desire to see "what will happen, if I cross this with that" doesn't cost other people the ability to get a pure corn in the future.
P.S. All referrences of "you" in this post are intended in the generic sense of "to whomever this applies." I have not meant to direct this at anyone, so please don't feel like I'm jumping down your throat.
It never ends, and that's the problem. Once the genes have been crossed, there is no uncrossing them. If the resulting intergrades were sterile, there wouldn't be an issue at all, but they are not. They can pass those polluted genes (and they are polluted as surely as roses are weeds if you are TRYING to grow dandelions) on to subsequent generations. However, once the babies are out of your hands, you have no control over how they will be bred, sold, or represented.
That is why breeding intergrades and hybrids is SUCH a huge responsibility. You have to take steps to make certain that your desire to see "what will happen, if I cross this with that" doesn't cost other people the ability to get a pure corn in the future.
P.S. All referrences of "you" in this post are intended in the generic sense of "to whomever this applies." I have not meant to direct this at anyone, so please don't feel like I'm jumping down your throat.
This is going really deep into the whole "gene theory" that I am not understanding in the bredding and selling of cornsnakes in general - the breeder has yet to answer my question re: my corn, but I now know he isn't working the shop all week and instead working a 2nd job as construction and probably won't get back to me until next week. But I can't wait to find out what he knows.
I got an answer today. He responded through his website's forum. The breeder's answer is: "Yes it is a cross breed thay got all the different phases by crossing them with rat snakes."
However, he never said this when I bought it. Was I taken advantage of for NOT knowing what I was buying?
However, he never said this when I bought it. Was I taken advantage of for NOT knowing what I was buying?
lothien
New member
i wouldn't say taken advantage of, per se. it runs more along the lines of "well, why didn't you say so?" "you didn't ask." if you bought him cause you love him, it doesn't really matter. you know now that breeding him would be undesirable, and it doesn't affect him being a good pet. if you decide later that you want to breed corn snakes, you have better information now than you did before
kenalotia
New member
That breeder is wrong. Creamsicle, Rootbeer, and Jungle are the only "phases" that were created by crossing corns with other species. The jungle corn, btw, is a cross between a corn and a Cal. King snake; not a rat snake at all. The rest of the morphs, or phases, were created using only corn snakes.
Do you feel that you were taken advantage of? If you do, then you were. Even if the monetary value of the animal is no different, if he told you that you were buying a corn snake, and you in fact bought a corn-emoryi cross, I'd say there's something wrong here. It may or may not matter to you, but it will matter very much to some people, and he should not be misleading his customers. This is exactly the problem that many people have with breeding intergrades or hybrids. Someone like this breeder may sell his hatchlings to others, simply calling them corns. The buyers believe them to be pure corn, and sell their offspring as pure corn. End result: many people, not just his own buyers, who want pure corn snakes are unwittingly getting intergrades.
He may have thought you were just a beginner and wouldn't care if the snake was an intergrade. However, it's not for him to decide what you will or won't care about! And you won't always be a beginner, either. I, personally, would not put my trust in this particular breeder.
Do you feel that you were taken advantage of? If you do, then you were. Even if the monetary value of the animal is no different, if he told you that you were buying a corn snake, and you in fact bought a corn-emoryi cross, I'd say there's something wrong here. It may or may not matter to you, but it will matter very much to some people, and he should not be misleading his customers. This is exactly the problem that many people have with breeding intergrades or hybrids. Someone like this breeder may sell his hatchlings to others, simply calling them corns. The buyers believe them to be pure corn, and sell their offspring as pure corn. End result: many people, not just his own buyers, who want pure corn snakes are unwittingly getting intergrades.
He may have thought you were just a beginner and wouldn't care if the snake was an intergrade. However, it's not for him to decide what you will or won't care about! And you won't always be a beginner, either. I, personally, would not put my trust in this particular breeder.