ultimatecorns
New member
Sorry about the Alibino Okeetee (Albino Okeetee) I mada a typo
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Whats Your Favorite Double Traited Corn That Contains Albino?
- Thread starter ultimatecorns
- Start date
Sorry about the Alibino Okeetee (Albino Okeetee) I mada a typo
Kat
I'm talkin' to YOU.
More than one...
You may as well just ask people, "What morphs should I try to make that you would buy from me?" rather than posting a gazillion polls all over the place "What is your favorite <insert criteria here>?". Your thinly veiled attempts to disguise your intentions do not work on me. Go away.
-Kat (annoyed now)
ultimatecorns
New member
Uh...
I'm not going away, but thank you for the kind suggestion. The poll is not scientific, nor was it ever intended to be. It does not have any external validity, thus it is of little use for market research. External validity is the application of one sampling (poll) for others. Thus a political poll is useful if it has both good internal and external validity. My poll is merely a conversation piece. Anyone who wants to can participate. Save the snobbery for someone who is insecure.
This is the last time I am going to tell you that a sunkissed is not a single type but is the combination of hypomelanistic and okeetee. Hypomelanism is the reduction of dark pigmentation. If you have any questions about sunkissed, ask Kathy Love, who is an expert on Okeetees, and is after all the one who will tell you that sunkissed are formerly called "hypo okeetee".
Peace
I'm not going away, but thank you for the kind suggestion. The poll is not scientific, nor was it ever intended to be. It does not have any external validity, thus it is of little use for market research. External validity is the application of one sampling (poll) for others. Thus a political poll is useful if it has both good internal and external validity. My poll is merely a conversation piece. Anyone who wants to can participate. Save the snobbery for someone who is insecure.
This is the last time I am going to tell you that a sunkissed is not a single type but is the combination of hypomelanistic and okeetee. Hypomelanism is the reduction of dark pigmentation. If you have any questions about sunkissed, ask Kathy Love, who is an expert on Okeetees, and is after all the one who will tell you that sunkissed are formerly called "hypo okeetee".
Peace
Clarification needed, I suppose
The Sunkissed (or Sunkist as I STILL think of it) is based on a different form of Hypomelanism than my Hypomelanistic Okeetees are. When I discovered that the Hypo Okeetees that Kathy was marketing were a different line of Hypomelanism, I suggested that this new genetic line of Hypomelanism would severely confuse people if the animals carrying it were called "Hypomelanistic". For instance, anyone breeding this alternate line of "Hypo Okeetee" to a Hypomelanistic Lavender would logically expect to get Hypomelanistic offspring. This would not happen. I did not relish the thought of getting hundreds of emails every egg hatching season from people wanting to know what the heck went wrong. So I felt a renaming was in order to help head off this problem at the pass.
Since I happened to have had a can of Sunkist soda pop sitting on my desk, that name seemed to pop into my head. When I called Kathy, I did not ask that she change the name of her cultivar, I merely suggested that I was going to refer to them internally here as Sunkist corns, to keep them isolated and identified as the different genetic Hypomelanistic trait they were exhibiting. Kathy, agreeing that a name change would be well worth doing, yet being concerned that she might run afoul of copyright or trademark infringement, decided to change the spelling slightly to "Sunkissed".
So, if you breed those Sunkissed Corns to ANYTHING else that is Hypo, you will get normals (maybe - Hypo is a joker in the deck at this time). Therefore Sunkissed Corns != Hypomelanistic Okeetees. (!= means "does not equal").
And I'll tell you something else. There apparently is more than one hypomelanism that we have been referring to as Type 'A' as well. At this point I have no clue as to whether they were genes that snuck in somehow, or I have had one or more spontaneous mutations take place. It is going to be hard enough trying to identify which individuals are which genetic type, much less trying to track backwards to figure out where the gene(s) came from.
Trust me, sooner or later just about everyone is going to breed a Hypo something to a Hypo something and not get Hypos as a result.
The Sunkissed (or Sunkist as I STILL think of it) is based on a different form of Hypomelanism than my Hypomelanistic Okeetees are. When I discovered that the Hypo Okeetees that Kathy was marketing were a different line of Hypomelanism, I suggested that this new genetic line of Hypomelanism would severely confuse people if the animals carrying it were called "Hypomelanistic". For instance, anyone breeding this alternate line of "Hypo Okeetee" to a Hypomelanistic Lavender would logically expect to get Hypomelanistic offspring. This would not happen. I did not relish the thought of getting hundreds of emails every egg hatching season from people wanting to know what the heck went wrong. So I felt a renaming was in order to help head off this problem at the pass.
Since I happened to have had a can of Sunkist soda pop sitting on my desk, that name seemed to pop into my head. When I called Kathy, I did not ask that she change the name of her cultivar, I merely suggested that I was going to refer to them internally here as Sunkist corns, to keep them isolated and identified as the different genetic Hypomelanistic trait they were exhibiting. Kathy, agreeing that a name change would be well worth doing, yet being concerned that she might run afoul of copyright or trademark infringement, decided to change the spelling slightly to "Sunkissed".
So, if you breed those Sunkissed Corns to ANYTHING else that is Hypo, you will get normals (maybe - Hypo is a joker in the deck at this time). Therefore Sunkissed Corns != Hypomelanistic Okeetees. (!= means "does not equal").
And I'll tell you something else. There apparently is more than one hypomelanism that we have been referring to as Type 'A' as well. At this point I have no clue as to whether they were genes that snuck in somehow, or I have had one or more spontaneous mutations take place. It is going to be hard enough trying to identify which individuals are which genetic type, much less trying to track backwards to figure out where the gene(s) came from.
Trust me, sooner or later just about everyone is going to breed a Hypo something to a Hypo something and not get Hypos as a result.
Serpwidgets
New member
A couple points to be made:
(D'oh! Rich this was directed at the post prior to yours... you must have posted before I finished, hehe)
1 - Please do your research. As Kathy says specifically on her site:
How could I possibly know about that? We all do. Anyone who has paid attention in this hobby over the last couple years noticed that a new strain of hypomelanism has cropped up, and was proven by Rich Z to be incompatible with the "standard" strain, or what is now being referred to as "Hypo A," whereas the new incompatible strain is being alternately referred to as "Hypo B."
I suggest you read this, since it probably pertains to your fledgling "business"
http://www.serpenco.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=16178&cat=250&page=4
---
2- If you breed a standard hypo to an Okeetee and then cross the F1s, what are the results in the F2? I'd like to hear your answer. (Not the answer you will claim Kathy Love or some other "name" gave you, but YOUR answer, since you have claimed to be the morph/genetics know-it-all.)
---
3- Enough of the "name dropping" already. There are a lot of us in this hobby who owe a lot to Kathy. She is a very kind, generous, and helpful person who has made a big difference to many people. You are not by any means "special" or the only one she has talked to in this hobby. In fact, I will assert that it is because of people like her, and Rich, and many other well-respected people who go out of their way to make a difference and take newbies under their wing, that this hobby is as cool and special as it is.
You are not the one who is special in all of this, they are. Make no mistake about that.
And I can assure you that I am not the only one who takes huge offense at your willingness to try to drag Kathy's name through the mud in order to try to make yourself sound credible. It will not go unchallenged in my presence, period. (Or anyone else's name, for that matter. Stand on your own two feet, this is supposed to be YOUR business, so don't try to park it on someone else's real-estate and claim they represent you, because it will not be tolerated.)
(D'oh! Rich this was directed at the post prior to yours... you must have posted before I finished, hehe)
1 - Please do your research. As Kathy says specifically on her site:
This is not a "mistake" or a re-interpretation of her words, it is an exact quote. What she is saying here is that these popped up spontaneously within her Okeetee lines.
How could I possibly know about that? We all do. Anyone who has paid attention in this hobby over the last couple years noticed that a new strain of hypomelanism has cropped up, and was proven by Rich Z to be incompatible with the "standard" strain, or what is now being referred to as "Hypo A," whereas the new incompatible strain is being alternately referred to as "Hypo B."
I suggest you read this, since it probably pertains to your fledgling "business"
http://www.serpenco.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=16178&cat=250&page=4
---
2- If you breed a standard hypo to an Okeetee and then cross the F1s, what are the results in the F2? I'd like to hear your answer. (Not the answer you will claim Kathy Love or some other "name" gave you, but YOUR answer, since you have claimed to be the morph/genetics know-it-all.)
---
3- Enough of the "name dropping" already. There are a lot of us in this hobby who owe a lot to Kathy. She is a very kind, generous, and helpful person who has made a big difference to many people. You are not by any means "special" or the only one she has talked to in this hobby. In fact, I will assert that it is because of people like her, and Rich, and many other well-respected people who go out of their way to make a difference and take newbies under their wing, that this hobby is as cool and special as it is.
You are not the one who is special in all of this, they are. Make no mistake about that.
And I can assure you that I am not the only one who takes huge offense at your willingness to try to drag Kathy's name through the mud in order to try to make yourself sound credible. It will not go unchallenged in my presence, period. (Or anyone else's name, for that matter. Stand on your own two feet, this is supposed to be YOUR business, so don't try to park it on someone else's real-estate and claim they represent you, because it will not be tolerated.)
Serpwidgets
New member
Oooooh! That reminds me... have you bred any of the double hets this year (Hypo X Sunkist?)
Any eggs?
I fully expect the same results you probably will expect: they'll probably all be boring, and if any of them are 'interesting' those will be the ones who decide to starve themselves to death or otherwise do everything they can to assure their own demise.
(I got one of those myself this year, very nifty pattern, named her "will probably die" and so far she hasn't even tried to prove me wrong... heh.)
Any eggs?
I fully expect the same results you probably will expect: they'll probably all be boring, and if any of them are 'interesting' those will be the ones who decide to starve themselves to death or otherwise do everything they can to assure their own demise.
(I got one of those myself this year, very nifty pattern, named her "will probably die" and so far she hasn't even tried to prove me wrong... heh.)
ultimatecorns
New member
thanks
Thanks Rich for the great story. I am aware that the Hypo in sunkissed is a different strain than regular hypo. Kathy Love patiently explained that to me last winter.
Here is the real question: Is sunkissed another basic morph to be added to the 9 listed in the poll at the top of this thread? I personally don't think so since it is a combination. I still maintain that there are 9 basic types. I can see the point that hypo B be added as the 10th type though, just as there is anery A, and anery B listd in the 9 above.
Serpwidge, cool your jets, no one is dragging anyone through anything. I know you feel compelled to dispense advise. Unsolicited advice is worth what you pay for it. I love this hobby and appreciate the founding fathers and mothers as much as anybody else. Relax, I easily pass the patriotism, and appreciation test.
Thanks Rich for the great story. I am aware that the Hypo in sunkissed is a different strain than regular hypo. Kathy Love patiently explained that to me last winter.
Here is the real question: Is sunkissed another basic morph to be added to the 9 listed in the poll at the top of this thread? I personally don't think so since it is a combination. I still maintain that there are 9 basic types. I can see the point that hypo B be added as the 10th type though, just as there is anery A, and anery B listd in the 9 above.
Serpwidge, cool your jets, no one is dragging anyone through anything. I know you feel compelled to dispense advise. Unsolicited advice is worth what you pay for it. I love this hobby and appreciate the founding fathers and mothers as much as anybody else. Relax, I easily pass the patriotism, and appreciation test.
When I think of single traited animals, I think of those that are so because of a simple recessive mutation. That's where the flack is coming from.
Okeetee phase and Miami phase are selectively bred looks, not single traits. Sunglows are selectively bred amels (or selectively bred amels + hypo, depending on the breeder). Candycanes are amels, plain and simple. Yes, they are very, very, very, very nice amels, but still...single trait. Reverse Okeetees (Amel Okeetees) are single traited animals with a particular look. You breed a candycane to reverse okeetee, get the F1's, breed them to each other...you will not get the standard 9:3:3:1 ratios of double morphs.
Same goes for Sunkisseds. It is a Hypo B animal, period. Has an Okeetee look, for sure, but it only includes one trait: Hypomelanism B/Sunkissed.
In my mind, single traits include the following:
Amel
Anery A
*Bloodred
Charcoal (Anery B)
Caramel
Hypo A
Lavender
*Motley \
------------apparently alleles, codominant to each other
*Stripe /
Sunkissed (Hypo B)
*+/- Zigzag/Aztec --I guess internally, I consider this one a trait, but I never call anything het for it since it doesn't breed true. I think it sits somewhere in the realm of selectively bred looks.
(*=pattern)
And in all honesty, I have to agree, I hate to see Kathy's name drug into this. If she wants to come on here and validate things, that is up to her. Please don't drag her name around. Like Serpwidgets said, alot of us in this hobby owe a lot to Kathy, Rich, Don, and the others. I'm sure she has spoken with you numerous times and at length, she's a very patient lady. Using her name to validate your statements/name-dropping is just, well, weak. It certainly isn't going to buy you validity in the world.
"If you can't stand on your own two feet, sit down."
(Always thought that was a cute saying, just seemed to apply.)
Okeetee phase and Miami phase are selectively bred looks, not single traits. Sunglows are selectively bred amels (or selectively bred amels + hypo, depending on the breeder). Candycanes are amels, plain and simple. Yes, they are very, very, very, very nice amels, but still...single trait. Reverse Okeetees (Amel Okeetees) are single traited animals with a particular look. You breed a candycane to reverse okeetee, get the F1's, breed them to each other...you will not get the standard 9:3:3:1 ratios of double morphs.
Same goes for Sunkisseds. It is a Hypo B animal, period. Has an Okeetee look, for sure, but it only includes one trait: Hypomelanism B/Sunkissed.
In my mind, single traits include the following:
Amel
Anery A
*Bloodred
Charcoal (Anery B)
Caramel
Hypo A
Lavender
*Motley \
------------apparently alleles, codominant to each other
*Stripe /
Sunkissed (Hypo B)
*+/- Zigzag/Aztec --I guess internally, I consider this one a trait, but I never call anything het for it since it doesn't breed true. I think it sits somewhere in the realm of selectively bred looks.
(*=pattern)
And in all honesty, I have to agree, I hate to see Kathy's name drug into this. If she wants to come on here and validate things, that is up to her. Please don't drag her name around. Like Serpwidgets said, alot of us in this hobby owe a lot to Kathy, Rich, Don, and the others. I'm sure she has spoken with you numerous times and at length, she's a very patient lady. Using her name to validate your statements/name-dropping is just, well, weak. It certainly isn't going to buy you validity in the world.
"If you can't stand on your own two feet, sit down."
(Always thought that was a cute saying, just seemed to apply.)
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
Hypo okeetee confusion (very long)
Rich really hit the nail on the head when he suggested changing the name early on to avoid "hypo okeetee" before lots of people started breeding the old tpye A into okeetees to create more confusion than we already have.
It is a constant problem requiring explanations with albino okeetees (which may not have a drop of okeetee blood in them, just a name based on the way they, and their ancestors, looked. ) It is too late to change the alb. okeetee name: it is too well-established. Since I don't mix traits into okeetees, and still call them okeetees, I didn't forsee the problem way back then. But we got to the hypo B okeetee name in time and now sunkissed or sunkist is pretty well accepted. I am not entirely excited by that name, but I don't have a better one, and it sure beats being confused with hypo okeetee.
I have avoided mixing the 2 hypos (I don't even want to THINK about other, unidentified hypo genes floating around) together. Rich did it before I did, proved it to be different, so I don't want to deal with babies that I have to breed just to figure out which hypo they are. Whenever I get new babies for future breeders from other people, I am giving them the 3rd degree about ancestry, but I know sooner or later I'll be faced with the sunkissed hypo gene in some unrelated ghost or other morph.
Have you noticed that the more we learn, the less we know?
Rich really hit the nail on the head when he suggested changing the name early on to avoid "hypo okeetee" before lots of people started breeding the old tpye A into okeetees to create more confusion than we already have.
It is a constant problem requiring explanations with albino okeetees (which may not have a drop of okeetee blood in them, just a name based on the way they, and their ancestors, looked. ) It is too late to change the alb. okeetee name: it is too well-established. Since I don't mix traits into okeetees, and still call them okeetees, I didn't forsee the problem way back then. But we got to the hypo B okeetee name in time and now sunkissed or sunkist is pretty well accepted. I am not entirely excited by that name, but I don't have a better one, and it sure beats being confused with hypo okeetee.
I have avoided mixing the 2 hypos (I don't even want to THINK about other, unidentified hypo genes floating around) together. Rich did it before I did, proved it to be different, so I don't want to deal with babies that I have to breed just to figure out which hypo they are. Whenever I get new babies for future breeders from other people, I am giving them the 3rd degree about ancestry, but I know sooner or later I'll be faced with the sunkissed hypo gene in some unrelated ghost or other morph.
Have you noticed that the more we learn, the less we know?
Serpwidgets
New member
There may be hope...
A few of us are breeding Sunkissed into other lines to create new combinations. We will definitely be creating "Sunkissed from non-Okeetee lines" in the process. Maybe we'll get lucky and these hypos will be distinguishable from the type A hypos.
Since Rich was the first to create other hets, he will probably be one of the first to hatch out something double-homozygous for both hypo types. Maybe these will be "even more hypo" than either single trait.
I'm not holding my breath waiting for such miracles, and I'm sure Murphy is already having a good laugh at me at this very moment. But we can hope anyway... might as well dream sweet dreams before the alarm goes off.
A few of us are breeding Sunkissed into other lines to create new combinations. We will definitely be creating "Sunkissed from non-Okeetee lines" in the process. Maybe we'll get lucky and these hypos will be distinguishable from the type A hypos.
Since Rich was the first to create other hets, he will probably be one of the first to hatch out something double-homozygous for both hypo types. Maybe these will be "even more hypo" than either single trait.
I'm not holding my breath waiting for such miracles, and I'm sure Murphy is already having a good laugh at me at this very moment. But we can hope anyway... might as well dream sweet dreams before the alarm goes off.
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
Mixing hypos
I am glad that some people are working on the project. My gut feeling is that they won't be distinguishable, but I could be wrong and something gorgeous could come of it. I have limited space, time, and energy, so I don't plan on working on it myself unless I see something that changes my mind.
It's a good thing that there are now so many serious people who are interested in taking on complicated, longterm projects. Unfortunately, the results of our tinkering will probably eventually return to haunt us in a few generations, once they get out into the mass market, but that is just the price of progress (and fun!), I guess!
I am glad that some people are working on the project. My gut feeling is that they won't be distinguishable, but I could be wrong and something gorgeous could come of it. I have limited space, time, and energy, so I don't plan on working on it myself unless I see something that changes my mind.
It's a good thing that there are now so many serious people who are interested in taking on complicated, longterm projects. Unfortunately, the results of our tinkering will probably eventually return to haunt us in a few generations, once they get out into the mass market, but that is just the price of progress (and fun!), I guess!
Serpwidgets
New member
True. There are somewhat similar issues with charcoal/anery, and I might be looking at one in my big project, hehe. I bred a charcoal ghost to a bloodred (het anery/charcoal) and, they haven't all shed yet, but I swear I'm looking at 3 charcoals and an anery. I probably won't be "sure" for another few years.
I have the same gut feeling: they won't be "interesting," and it will end up being confusing (fun, hehe) at some point. But I wouldn't be willing to give up pewters in order to get rid of that confusion.
I have the same gut feeling: they won't be "interesting," and it will end up being confusing (fun, hehe) at some point. But I wouldn't be willing to give up pewters in order to get rid of that confusion.
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
Since you metioned bloodreds...
I just had a small clutch hatch out from a small, first-time breeder female hypo blood x a male blood het hypo. I think there were only 8 or 9 babies, mostly hypo bloods, but there was something very interesting about them. Several of the normal bloods and hypo bloods have what looks like a white /whitish head with little or no markings at all. (new morph - bald bloods?? haha!) None have shed yet, so I will know more in a few days. Once they have shed, Bill will photo them for me. It's always exciting to see something different.
I saw your post about bloodred theory and it looks interesting. I may have something to add, but I have to read it thoroughly when my head is not swimming from dealing with all of these babies. Everything hatched early, as planned, and I am now going crazy early, as planned.
I just had a small clutch hatch out from a small, first-time breeder female hypo blood x a male blood het hypo. I think there were only 8 or 9 babies, mostly hypo bloods, but there was something very interesting about them. Several of the normal bloods and hypo bloods have what looks like a white /whitish head with little or no markings at all. (new morph - bald bloods?? haha!) None have shed yet, so I will know more in a few days. Once they have shed, Bill will photo them for me. It's always exciting to see something different.
I saw your post about bloodred theory and it looks interesting. I may have something to add, but I have to read it thoroughly when my head is not swimming from dealing with all of these babies. Everything hatched early, as planned, and I am now going crazy early, as planned.
Kathy,
Is this what you are seeing, or something different?:
I have seen many of the Hypo Blood Reds have these basically white heads on them. Some completely so, with no pattern.
Matter of fact, a few years ago, someone working for me wanted me to call them the "Death Head Corns". Obviously, I didn't think it was a very marketable name for them.
Unfortunately, it fades away to the normal ground color with maturity.
Is this what you are seeing, or something different?:
I have seen many of the Hypo Blood Reds have these basically white heads on them. Some completely so, with no pattern.
Matter of fact, a few years ago, someone working for me wanted me to call them the "Death Head Corns". Obviously, I didn't think it was a very marketable name for them.
Unfortunately, it fades away to the normal ground color with maturity.
kathylove
Pragmatic & Logical
What a beauty!
Some of them looked like that photo, but a few are, as you said, virtually white heads without pattern. But they haven't even shed yet. I will try to get photos soon to see if they are the same as you described. I have only produced a few hypo bloods each year, so haven't yet seen the range of color and pattern that you have seen by now. Even if they turn "normal", they still sure are pretty!
Some of them looked like that photo, but a few are, as you said, virtually white heads without pattern. But they haven't even shed yet. I will try to get photos soon to see if they are the same as you described. I have only produced a few hypo bloods each year, so haven't yet seen the range of color and pattern that you have seen by now. Even if they turn "normal", they still sure are pretty!