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White sided Granite vs Pied Side Granite?

Michael823

Michael823

New member
Hey everyone,

Just curious if anyone with direct knowledge of the two can clarify what is exactly referenced when describing the two (separately). I understand what pied is, and I think I have a clue what differentiates it from 'white sided' (one is separated by diffusion that appears white, the other is actually pied white?...).

But more so, I am curious if anyone has any hatch-ling photos to reference, that they wouldn't mind sharing. I know it's not uncommon that people post 'the most unusual hatch-lings in the world' at times, when in fact it may be something not all that unusual. But I have hatched out a clutch of Granites (Granite x Ghost Blood), and I am absolutely certain that something is, at the very least, unusual. Four of the six have excellent diffusion, while of those four, three are without a doubt different. They have completely white sides. Not just diffused white, but completely, solid white (from the belly all the way up to just about where the dorsal pattern starts... not even any of the typical stitching pattern that occurs in diffused animals between the belly and the very bottom of the lateral markings). Of course waiting until they shed is a must before I can even get any sort of reliable answer (and of course photos might help too, lol), but I'm just too antsy to wait before I ask for reference photos.

And of course there's a chance this is premature speculation, or at least 'too soon to tell'... I get that, and I'm by no means just looking for a label to pawn these off as something they are not. But where I'm most likely keeping the three that look like this (given they eat and grow healthy), I'm just looking to see if I can consolidate the information that may be out there.

Anyways, any info at all would be greatly appreciated. I understand that no determinations can be made on mine whatsoever (especially without pics), but if someone is gracious enough to share their own photos (or experiences with the morph/s) I would be most thankful. And I will certainly be posting photos the minute they shed (should be any day now, as they're eyes were glazed blue last night).
 
I don't know if I can help but my understanding of this topic is that white sided granites are "just" extreme diffused granites (displaying more or less white at the laterals) and pied sided granites are indeed those animals with the typical white areas at the laterals.

I believe much white sided granites are indeed "NO WHITE piedsided" granites. my personal understatement of pied is that it's most likely a defect which is codom to blood OR a polygenetic trait. If it's codom to blood, that would explain why pieds are hatching from pied x unrelated blood. It would explain results like pied x pied = just a few pieds.....it would pretty much explain every strange behavior in pied inheritance. Further more I do believe all blood hatchlings with those weird translucent pied bellys, but with NO WHITE, are still pieds! I believe these killer diffused animals with the translucent bellys are the "real" pieds, the pieds with white spots are just an extreme form of that morph (btw that would explain why you can hatch pieds from "blood" x "blood"). Nevertheless, this is just my understanding of the pieds. With this way of looking at the topic, this one would be a

"white sided granite" aka piedsided no white granite (this animal is from a pied pairing and showes the "pied belly")
o2y78mki.jpg


and this one a piedsided granite
ls6ezw5x.jpg


both are clutchmates btw...

I really don't now if it's correct, but it works for me and explains all the weird stuff I got in my coop pied pairings during the last 3 years. Hope it helps...
 
This greatly helps, and I very much appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts and photos. Gorgeous animals as well.

I'm completely unaware of either of the parents to this clutch having pied in their makeup, but that second photo could be a dead-ringer for some of these babies that have hatched (not to be presumptuous about their genetics, but honestly the white is just that apparent). And they certainly have the translucent appearance on their bellies and sides. To the point where you can actually almost candle them and see where the diffusion ends, and the clear white on the sides begin).

After doing a quick search through the forums, I've also found a couple of posts that seem to relate to this discussion. So I apologize for making you take the time to post when I may have been able to find some photos with a search, but I greatly appreciate having the information consolidated here. It also seems that these strains of Granites (at least those posted here) are from the UK.... is this just by coincidence of who posts, or is this just a line/morph that was picked up on over there sooner?

I'll at least try and get some photos up tonight (shed or not), and hopefully it will give some reference to the hatch-lings I'm talking about. But again, I thank you for posting, and I look forward to sharing more (as well as looking at more photos of your amazing snakes as well). I know most people probably prefer the 'wow' colors of some of the other morphs out there, but Granites are one of my absolute favorite morphs. I love how uniform in color they become with each shed, and the highly diffused and pied examples are some of the nicest looking snakes in all of the pet trade, IMO. I will most definitely stay up on this thread (and your postings).
 
I do continue to feel that it is a natural expression of the extreme diffusion we breed for. Has anyone to date seen an example of the PS trait in a *poorly* diffused animal?
 
Shiari said:
I do continue to feel that it is a natural expression of the extreme diffusion we breed for. Has anyone to date seen an example of the PS trait in a *poorly* diffused animal?
Click to expand...
Right.... also a reason why there will probably never be a pied animal that isn't diffused (at least not with a pied gene that's compatible with the one found in the extremely diffused animals now).

It would also help to explain the white-sided effect in Granite's. Perhaps there are many more extremely diffused blood-reds that are in fact pied, which would, if expressed with anery (as with Granite's), show the layers of white underneath all of the (would be) intense red of some of the pied Bloods out there.

It's all very interesting. I personally love the blood morphs, and pied just seems like an added surprise to really showing off the beauty of the morph.
 
I agree that pied-sided is directly linked somehow with the diffuse gene. Otherwise, where are all the pied-sided non-diffuse hatchlings? I do prefer to make sure to include "-sided" when referring to this trait as I do hope to one day see an actial pied corn that is like the pied ball pythons. And as for "white-sided", I reserve that term as well because I would also like to see a white-sided corn like the white-sided (licorice) black rats.
 
I can see where the 'white sided' would add confusion, as it's more dramatically seen in some of the other white-sided snakes out there. And you're right, a truly pied animal would be great to see in the future, and I don't believe that this is the gene exhibited in the highly diffused animals shown with pied sides today.

So can I deduce that that white-sided is referring to pied-sided? or is a better interpretation needed to describe any of them as anything other than just "highly diffused" or pied-sided?

I guess it does get a little confusing, as far as labeling. I'm getting even more excited to get home and check on the babies now, because I really want to post a couple of them in particular. One of them has the white-sided markings running high up on his sides, and straight down to the vent, and I really would like some I.D'ing help/opinions there.

Again, thank you guys for posting.
 
I have no baby photos or actual info to add, but this a GBR that is definitely pied-sided. She belongs to Angela.
 

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I was able to get a few shots this morning. The 1st picture shows the clear difference between two of the clutch mates. Of course there's a lot of variation with the 'diffuse' gene, but I think they look unusual, to say the least.

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I have read, I think, that the pied-side gene is just a higher expression of the white-side gene. You know how a paint horse can have zero amount of white all the way up to an extreme amount of white? So if a cornsnake is white-sided, it can have zero pied, or low to high expression of pied- just luck of the draw, more or less. I think this is speculation at this point- but it makes a lot of sense to me. You always see pied on snakes that have that absent side pattern.
 
*I'll try getting some updated photos tonight before I feed them.

I'm not in any rush to label them anything, but it would be interesting to know why a percentage of the babies are so vastly different from the others. The pattern cuts off onto white/patternless at the same point on 4 of them, and two are more varied in diffusion/pattern (but still with clear white bellies).. I want to get them a little larger to see how they develop anyways, so I think it should really show how white the sides remains as they age.
 
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