Who heats with wood? Habitat considerations...

[CornBoy]

We live here in the great northeast, and we heat with wood.

Our corns, and even our other tropical pets are in our living room. In winter, during the nights, the room temperature can reach a low point by morning. When the temperatures outdoors drop to 20 below, the living room may drop from 65 when we go to bed down to about 50 degrees by morning. Yes, this year was warmer, usually around 55 on the coldest mornings.

I believe that this normal 24 hour winter temperature cycle is a wonderful way for our snakes to stay healthy, if we provide well thought out habitats.

We have had many different types of reptiles and fish and tropical plants for many years. And a lot of research and thought goes into designing habitats for our exotic pets. For example, our snake vivs offer warm areas, cool areas, and intermediate areas. We closely observe our animals and their behavior, and provide hides that are warm enough for the coldest night. I have found that just laying a sheet of newspaper over a screen top at night will keep the air temps inside the viv at 65 or higher on the coldest morning. Since the heat supplied is from under the tank, the temperature gradient is therefore excellent, and the animal has complete freedom to select perfect comfort.

An example of this is the viv for our large adult corn. King Wrath is in a 20 long, he has a large heat pad AND bright flood lamp (which he grew up with and loves) for heat. He is right by a window, so he needs the double heat source in winter. At night, the light goes off, newspaper cover goes on, and he's good to go!

Some of our vivs share heat energy from other habitats. For example, Our 29 Gal heavily planted aquarium has a 2-bulb 24" fluorescent fixture with overdriven ballast that gives off heat all day. Guess what? The tubs we use for our 2 year old corns Lucy & Ricky fit nicely right on top of the light fixture, keeping the vivs warm all day for "free". (no, there are no dangerous hot spots) When I shut the light off at night, I switch on the heat mats.

Another "free heat" set up we have is for our new baby corn (couldn't help myself in petco!). He/she is in a plastic critter keeper that is acting as a cover for our 10 G hermit crab habitat. Their tank is very warm and they have a black light overnight, so the new baby doesn't even need a heat mat! It stays beautiful all day and night.

On snake feeding day, I wrap everyone's f/t in plastic wrap and thaw them on top of another warm fish tank.

So I do lots of monitoring during winter, just another excuse to spend more time with my babies!

Anyone else have similar opinions/stories/ideas?

Rob

 

[Susan]

I'm not sure if I am following you correctly, so let me ask a blunt question...What is the temp range you are keeping your corns at?

It sounds as if during the winter, you are letting the night-time temp go to 65F or potentially lower. If you are feeding your corn snakes and not brumating them, those temps are too low for proper digestion and you are risking regurges. Your tropical pets may be experiencing these temps in their native habitat during the winter, but they are not being kept or fed in the same way you are keeping yours. They are in dens (for lack of a better word) where the temps are that low or lower, but they are much more constant. They are not experiencing the fluctuations to the higher temps you are probably keeping them at during the day. And they are definitely not eating.

 

[diamondlil]

Have you checked the substrate temperatures for your corns with a digital probe thermometer?

 

[CornBoy]

Hi Susan and Janine!
Thanks for the questions! I let the snakes thermoregulate themselves, so I don't "keep" them limited. Please assume I've read all the literature about cornsnake care, and I know what's too hot and too cold. I have taken hide temperatures and substrate temperatures, but the best way to know what the snakes like is to watch the snakes!

My snakes have never had a regurge. It is very easy to see the pattern in the feeding cycle. After feeding, the snake will always be more sedentary for a couple of days, seeking out the warmest or medium hide. As the days progress, activity increases and different hides or none at all are used.

This winter, I swear, my son's adult female, Jenny (I call her J-Lo ) self-brumated. She has a very large viv and went to the farthest, coldest corner, under the substrate, under the newspaper, under the waterbowl. She stayed there for 2 weeks and I chased her out on the next feeding day - I got "punched" in the process. She fed, hung out in her warm hide a few days, pooped, and went back into the cold corner for 3 more weeks!

Rob

 

[diamondlil]

It is very easy to see the pattern in the feeding cycle. After feeding, the snake will always be more sedentary for a couple of days, seeking out the warmest or medium hide. As the days progress, activity increases and different hides or none at all are used.

Um, This is exactly what my snakes do in their thermostatically-controlled rack system. The difference is that mine cannot get too hot or too cold, because the temps are regulated to stay in the correct range

 

[diamondlil]

This winter, I swear, my son's adult female, Jenny (I call her J-Lo ) self-brumated. She has a very large viv and went to the farthest, coldest corner, under the substrate, under the newspaper, under the waterbowl. She stayed there for 2 weeks and I chased her out on the next feeding day - I got "punched" in the process. She fed, hung out in her warm hide a few days, pooped, and went back into the cold corner for 3 more weeks!

'Self-brumation? Not at all, because a snake cool enough to brumate wouldn't feed, no matter how hard you tried, until it had come up to temperature to be active again, which is a gradual process. No corner within a viv should be cool enough to make a snake become torpid, unless you are cooling the whole viv to induce brumation.

 

[snakewispera snr]

Pop corn and chair ready....
This thread looks set to be a real learning curve.... LOL

 

[CornBoy]

Thanks again Janine!
Glad to hear we agree that the feeding cycle is an obvious phenomena.

Point well taken about the "self brumation" ! She was hardly torpid and she did feed after waking up for a while. So now I know that that is the definition of brumation. Can you help me with this then, I struggle to come up with the proper words to describe her behavior. What would you call it for her to seek out a 60 degree corner of her viv for weeks at a time as I described? If she could choose any temperature in that 25 degree gradient between 85 and 60, and she chooses 60, I figure she does it because she can, and she wants to.

Hey Mike popcorns on me, man

Thanks again, I love to have my way of thinking questioned, I always come out learning a lot!

Rob

 

[diamondlil]

I'd hazard a guess (and it's just a guess) that settling into that cool area reduced the snakes activity level such that leaving there may have been too much effort without the stimulus of you chasing her out. I am positive though that such a low temperature could increase the risk of a respiratory tract infection for a corn.
Out of interest, what is the substrate level temperature measured by a probe thermometer? It could well be within range and the measured air temperature a red herring.

 

[CornBoy]

a red herring.

LOL!! Indeed, Thanks for trying to help out!
Best regards
Rob

 

[CornBoy]

Okay, back to my original question for this thread, anyone else have similar opinions/stories/ideas? I guess I'm appealing to the small scale hobbyist! I see you breeders with your racks and clinical conditions don't have time for this nonsense.

So if you are unconventional, but smart and observant of your snakes, are you doing cool things with habitats in winter in less than conventional surroundings? Now I can see from experience, if you think outside the box, people may assume your thinking is wrong, because it is different from what they know and do. Maybe that's why you're not posting?

How about a simple discussion of how easy it is to change the temperature choices in a viv by simply rearranging things? Or how a hide's size, shape, material of construction, and placement within the viv can really change it's internal temperature. Or how by simply increasing the depth of substrate you can offer a warm viv in a room that would otherwise be too cold.

These are all such simple, simple things. Common sense, really, but not something everyone spends a lot of time thinking about.

 

[Outcast]

I have to heat my house with wood, so I brumate my snakes. It is easier on them than constant massive fluctuations in temperature. And, I save money on feedings during the winter.

 

[starsevol]

Increasing the depth of substrate does not make a viv any warmer...snakes have no body heat!!
I brumate too, I read that brumation can extend a snake's lifespan in captivity and it saves me heating and feeding bills and time cleaning cages.

 

[CornBoy]

Thanks Aaron!
Sounds like a good option if my collection gets bigger. What kind of problems did you encounter before you started that? For now, the way I have things set up, they don't have massive fluctuations, but they definitely have a daily cycle where they may want to move to a different location within the viv throughout the 24 hour day. Works for them, so it works good for me.

Bethany, thanks!
With a UTH, if you have a deeper layer of substrate above it - temps within the substrate will be very warm --- but if it's a thin layer, the heat will quickly dissipate into the air above.

Another way to do the same thing, imagine you have your warm hide on top of the substrate, directly over your UTH, OK? If you were to pile substrate over it, the temps inside will be warmer, right? That's common sense!

Also vivs can easily be insulated on the outside back and underneath - thereby keeping temps higher inside. But if underneath, you must leave an air space for the UTH! I gotta say at this point, you need to be very careful to get very accurate temperature readings at the inside glass surface where the UTH is stuck on! Any of the methods I mention could cause the temp to become too high in YOUR situation! As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I thoroughly research, think through, test, and observe, observe, observe. The snakes will tell you what they like.

Cold blooded indeed! They are loving, caring, warm individuals!

 

[diamondlil]

I am a small scale hobbyist, my snakes are pets foremost and breeding them is for my interest and enjoyment. The proceeds slightly offset the cost of initial purchsae, set ups and maintenance. So hardly some clinical industrial set up here.
By the tone of your last couple of posts you seem to think your way is better? If you are using thermostatically controlled heat to offset fluctuations in ambient room temperature, then that's exactly what everyone else is doing. If you are using random heat sources without control and trusting to luck, I wish you all the best in your experimentation.

"As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I thoroughly research, think through, test, and observe, observe, observe. The snakes will tell you what they like."

Ever seen thermal burns from snakes that settled on unregulated heatmats or wrapped around a heat lamp?

 

[CornBoy]

Janine,
Woah! So sorry, never meant to threaten you or your way, that would be nuts! Obviously I do it in a way that is works best for me! I enjoy fussing with my snakes, tweaking and making adjustments their environment. This is part of the fun for me.

I'm also happy to take back the "clinical" word too, if it upsets you! I should have said "strictly controlled temperature gradient," because that is what I was thinking.
Glad to hear you got offsets! Congratulations!
No, nothing against thermostats, I use them on my tropical fish. Sometimes they fail and you get fish mortality, but the wise fish keeper will keep 2 undersized heaters running to minimize death if one fails.

Sorry, I never used the words "industrial," "random heat sources," or "luck;" so those are yours.

So sorry you felt the need to conjure those nasty burn images, you must feel very threatened?
But yes, I have seen the horrible pictures and read of the dangers in several books, articles, and on line.
Peace!
Rob

 

[skelator]

i heat my house entiriely with wood. i dont get anywhere near that much tempature swing you are getting. my snakes are in 20gallon long tanks in my living room right next to my fish tank. thecoldest it gets in here is maybe 64. thats only if i didnt get my lazy butt outta bed to load the stove. normal temp in my house is over 75. my living room is probly closer to 75 most of the time.

i dont get the swing you do in temps but i just have the 2 heat mats set to 85. i also have lights that i use of i wanna watch them with the light on but i seldom do that anymore.