Who REALLY wants a registry???

[red_nan]

I am willing to do to work to put it together.
How ever I need in put and data from the breeders.
I am working on getting all the "Morphs" and colour guide books that I can.

What I do need is pixs!
I've seen several Morphs/colours have different names - the registry will only take ONE name per Morph/colour.
It should come from the first person who breed for it, got it and is able to reproduce it.
Also what is the lightest the colour can go until it's a drifferent Morph/colour?
Whats the darkest?

Should there be several types of Morphs/colours/-Such as is horse registry's there are several colours/types of grays, bays, paints, appys, roans, ect....
grays-white, flea bitten, rosy flea bitten-bays-blood, dark, seal, ect.

And when I print up the forms I need to have something tangible -motley comes to mind--I have read several times in here that it ( the pix in Q) isn't just right to be called that-but it's something that you know when you see it--that won't work for me-I need help tighening EASY to understand discriptions for patterns-thank god most are so easy to spot and discribe.

I used to keep the books for my dad's breeding farm-we had 300-500 head of horses on any given day. I also did ALL the forms for the Arabian Horse Registry and the Jockey Club -which was a pain.
So I do realize what I am undertaking.

And too before anyone gets their panties in a knot--there will be a very small fee to be submitted --- I have to get the forms made up then printed- I have to by the diskes, file folders and cabnits ect.-POSTAGE-I have to advertise that I am really doing this in different newsletters and forms-I am not rich and I will have to break even.
Also my time-I ussally make crafts and sell them in the evenings-so I will be losing income.And this will in no way make up for that!!!!

So please don't moan over the three or five or what ever amount of dollars I ask that you send in - so I can add you and give you a certificate of regisration, and then go file your paper work. And send you out clutch paper work and breeding paperwork ect And up date how many show points you've earned--if the shows ever make it around. :cheers:

so now that i've done my "bitch" session
this is what i've decided on
1.what is the colour of the body
2. what is the colour of the eyes
3.what is the colour of the tongue
4.what is the patteren
5.what are the belly markings
6. are there any scars or defects-to help identify if need be
or unusall markings
7. what sex is it
8. when was it hatched=how old is it (or what is the best guess you can get)
9. what are the parents reg. #
10. who was the breeder
11.where was it bred/or gotten from

photos
one very clear close top of the head shot
one side head
one of the back-patteren must be clear
one of the belly
photo of and scars, defects, markings

anything that i've forgotten??? please let me know

Also when would be fair to call a close to the open book time period?
lets say that on 01 FEB 05 it's ready to roll
should we close the books in 06? 07? 08?
i would say in 08 to hopefully give enough time for all who want to to get reg'd

remimber this isn't my registry it's going to be for all of us
so if you don't suggest it now don't bitch about it later


also please forgive the spelling errors here -- i had another night where i couldn't sleep
so i'm rather tried with out my sleep and spell check isn't on right now

so here are the two addys i have please keep topics to the "rightest" one

Thanks Red
[email protected]
[email protected]
:shrugs: :crazy02: :dancer:

 

[Hurley]

I think this will be a nice tool for having a running record on some of our cornsnakes. I know the larger breeders probably won't be putting theirs in, but for those of us with a managable number that like to keep up with the family trees of our corns, it could be fun. It'll act as a central record system across many breeders.

Much like with horses, you'll never guarantee that every person submitting the paperwork knows what morph their cornsnake is for sure (I've certainly seen plenty of cremellos in the quarter horses with papers calling them palominos, and greys listed as bay because they were as babies), but hopefully the majority of submitters will take the time to find out if they don't know.

I know that some people love to trace back bloodlines on their pets and this will give an opportunity to start a public record, at least for those submitted.

Brings up a lot of questions on how you're going to handle some of these things, like:

After the books close, are you going to have a process by which a corn from outside stock can be enrolled? (like the appendix system with quarter horses)

Are you going to do like most and just have the phenotype listed on the papers (amel, anery, hypo, etc.)? If so, how are you going to list combos, by their common name (butter, opal, ghost) or by their gene names (Amel+Anery, etc.)? Are you going to allow people to list known hets? (That would be a difficult thing to keep correct, for sure.)

Is there going to be an ongoing registry for clutch results and things so people can try to research what genes are in the background, hets, and try to track morphs back?

What to do when you have a hypo of indeterminite genotype?
Have the option of checking:
Standard Hypo (Hypo A) _____
Sunkissed Hypo (Hypo B) _____
Lava Hypo (Hypo C) ______
Ultra Hypo (Hypo D) ______
Ultramel (Hypo D + Amel) _______
Hypo, type undetermined _______

Same for anery?
Anery A ___
Anery B/Charcoal ___
Anery, type undetermined ___


I'm just interested in the process and final outcome. It's a large project and will be very time consuming, it takes dedication to take it on. Good luck with it. :cheers:


edit: add-in

Are you going to allow info to be entered now on parentage when they aren't registered corns? What I mean is, for example, I have pedigrees of sorts on some of my corns listing any numbers that were given by other breeders, preceeded by the initials of the breeder, along with genotype in my form of shorthand.

So, entries from stock that isn't mine could read something like:
(this is not an actual number or animal, just an example)

RZ #EGG042369
AM,LV/hy (an)

That would be for a Rich Z corn with an id number of EGG042369 that is an opal het hypo and possibly anery.

I've got these listed for anything known on my stock, if the grandfather or whatever is unknown, it's just listed as unknown. (much like the pedigrees of the original quarter horses, lol, or something like Bay Mare or Joe's Grey Mare)

 

[Shep151]

Wow!

:sidestep: That is one heckuva daunting task you are tackling! Personally I'm not sure what to think of it, but I have to give you credit for the courage and ambition it's going to take to see it through! What's going to be put in there for line-breeding for traits/new genes etc? I'm pretty sure those were unregisterable for livestock.
Good Luck! :wavey:

 

[red_nan]

ummmm..............more fuel for the brain

i can make a spot for the phono. geno, het--if ya'll want me to --- it will be as an option---with some breeders so defensive about what their breeding and what their useing to get it -- i thought the most "PC" thing to do would be to list only the colour that is seen--that way they can be sure their secrets are safe with me---just as if anyone but reg. owner wanted info on another snake all they would get would be the names and the snakes # , and their current owners name-if discloser was signed by said owner


I can see how some peeps would enjoy the options being filled in--and i can also see gaurding your cash flow as a breeder by not filling them in---so i think as an option it's a very good idea --thanks!!

 

[red_nan]

we know that new colours/morphs/traits are being breed for all of the time--so until a new one comes out - we got what we got--but when something new does show up then we just add it in---it would be different if the breeders weren't always working on something new or different


as for the big breeders -- if all they do is send pix, current colouring, and what ever they call it --- for all i care it could be: u77t4oh9, sunkissed, female, red eyes, red tongue, checker belly, hatched in 00
i'm not trying to be diffincult - i don't think thats to much to do-except for body colour, everything else there is just place an "X" in the corect box.

will finish this tomorrow--but being tried just washed over -- i think i get to sleep tonight :dancer: :dancer: :dancer: :dancer: :dancer: :dancer:

 

[Hurley]

On eye color, are you recording their iris color or the pupil color or both?

I only ask because people are commonly told if it has red eyes, it's an amel of some sort...meaning red pupils. On the pupils there is only red, black, and ruby.

Otherwise by iris color, an amel would have pink or orange eyes, maybe red, a normal may well have red or brown or even close to yellow....etc.

Just curious which system you're going by.

 

[red_nan]

i would have to say both then
red

 

[red_nan]

have gotten some great suggestions--please keep them coming----and thank you

 

[red_nan]

time line is bumbed back

:cry :sobstory: :
so to do this but there have been more deathes in my family and teens on sucide watch--hopefully by this time next yr????????

 

[Amanda E]

so to do this but there have been more deathes in my family and teens on sucide watch--hopefully by this time next yr????????

How horrible! I feel so bad for you.



About your idea...

Well, I too am not sure what this would be for, other than tracing pedigree in order to figure out if your current snake could be a possible het for so-and-so. So unless the person writes down exactly what the genetics are I don't understand the point. But then again, I've never really understood the reason dogs and other animals are registered except for the owner to feel like an elitist that they have a pedigreed animal.

Also, one thing that I think is a problem is that if I didn't register my snake with you, I could still be able, through my own records, to provide the pedigree of my hatchlings to customers. And I may have better hatchings than the guy next door whose snakes are registered. Yet he can sell them for twice what I can just because his snakes are registered and mine aren't. I don't think thats fair just because he spent the extra money to get his animals registered.

Can you tell I'm not a fan of this idea? Sorry. Personally, I don't think that it will actually go anywhere just because of the sheer amount of snakes that people have. They aren't going to want to spend any money to get them registered unless this idea of yours takes off like crazy and they feel like they have to keep up with other breeders that do have their snakes registered.

as for the big breeders -- if all they do is send pix, current colouring, and what ever they call it --- for all i care it could be: u77t4oh9, sunkissed, female, red eyes, red tongue, checker belly, hatched in 00
i'm not trying to be diffincult - i don't think thats to much to do

Well, think of it this way... a lot of breeders have MANY animals to care for, so that they don't have the time to do a lot of the things they have to do much less to do the paperwork to register each and every snake. Breeders like Rich have thousands of snakes. It would take him FOREVER to fill out the paperwork and take the photos that you would require. Not to mention the money he would have to pay to do so. I can be about 99% sure that he would tell you that YOU would have to pay HIM to register his snakes with you.

 

[Hurley]

I personally think it is a good idea for some people. I think the audience, so to speak, will be those smaller breeders who are really into the pedigrees of their corns. It would basically be a unifiying body, a tracker. I don't think it's necessary to have every corn snake ever produced anywhere by anyone to be registered. I also don't think having a registration number automatically means that snake is "worth more" just for that number alone.

The benefit of a registry for a breed is as a history book. I can trace my quarter horse clear back to the very first registered horses...and in one branch back even further since the thoroughbred registry has been around longer. A registry compiles data from all of its submitters and at least in those lines serves as a log for where the stock came from and what traits they carried, etc. Having a pictoral log would be even better. If you wanted to try and trace back head patterns, for instance, you could look back through the pictures and look for trends.

I personally do do pedigrees on my animals, so for anything from my breeding there are pictures and genotype/phenotype info back as far as I can take it. It always makes me sad to have to list one branch as Unknown geno/pheno, RZ stock or something like that, but at least that tells me where the stock came from.

I think if we can get this registry on line that it would be a valuable resource amongst breeders, and the larger the participation, the more info it will provide. There are some bugs that need to be worked out and will be more in the future, but it's a start. I personally plan to participate, for sheer record-keeping and trend research alone, and I hope others will as well. No one expects Rich to catalog his 6000+ corns, or Don, etc., but for those of us who are "stupidly" into the backgrounds of our corns, it will be useful...and if given the choice, I'd buy a corn with a history over the same corn that has no history just for genotype info alone.

I also think it would be a great learning tool for those just learning genetics to physically see "case studies" of parents and the offspring they throw, grandparents, etc. We don't all have hundreds of corns, so learning from others' crosses is important. You get out of things what you put into them.

My thoughts on the subject from a different perspective. :santa:

 

[Amanda E]

If you wanted to try and trace back head patterns, for instance, you could look back through the pictures and look for trends.

Yah, I guess that would be cool. I didn't think about tracing pattern decent. I can definitely understand how someone would like to know the pattern of a snake's parents/grandparents when trying for certain looks, like perfect pattern vs zig-zag vs aztec and hurricane motleys vs q-tip motleys vs banded motleys, etc.

and if given the choice, I'd buy a corn with a history over the same corn that has no history just for genotype info alone.

My point exactly. Though I guess a clarifying question would be: Would you rather buy a registered corn than an unregistered corn even if the unregistered corn came with the exact same pedigree info?

I'm crazy into the pedigree of my snakes too (I even use genealogy software made for people to keep track of my snakes lineage), but I don't know I would want to pay for this service, especially since I can just do it on my own and pass it along to my customers when they buy a snake from me.

 

[Hurley]

My point exactly. Though I guess a clarifying question would be: Would you rather buy a registered corn than an unregistered corn even if the unregistered corn came with the exact same pedigree info?

Personally, "papered" animals to me are identical to unpapered animals. I couldn't give a rat's patootie about the status implied. What I do like about the idea is the compiling of all participants' info into a centrally accessable location. I can personally tell you everything you would ever want to know about my own snakes, but I've got sketchy info at best on the ones I didn't produce myself.

To me, "papered animal" does not = "worth more"...but I would pay more for the history that comes with them. That to me IS worth something, and like I said, if given the choice on the exact same animal, yeah, I'd buy the "papered" one....just like I preferentially acquire animals from those whose knowledge I respect and information is sound. I try my best to return the favor.

With the rate that corns reproduce, you can emass some pretty good family trees in a short amount of time. Like I said, the project will only be as good as the people involved, but hopefully enough dedicated people will get involved to make it a valuable tool and make it worthwhile. "Backyard Breeders" that just sell random corns at shows won't be in on this. Mass producers won't be in on it. The type of people that keep a moderate number of corns and really delve into the genetics of them are the type that I suspect will be most interested in registering....and honestly, those are the people I target when trading or buying snakes.

The other big plus I see for the locality people out there is a nice way of tracking those "pure" strains from wild caughts. Nice tool for them, especially if they add an optional Locality: XXXXX box. Shrug.

The fact of the matter is that some people will value papers and hence think they are worth more or sell them for more...shrug. It always happens and I don't see why it's a bad thing. Something is only worth what you're willing to sell it for or willing to pay for it.

It's an individual thing and I don't see why it's so bad if Vendor A sells his Trundlefart corns for $40 more than Vendor B. If it's worth the price when you buy Vendor A's corns, you shouldn't feel shafted when you see Vendor B's cheaper Trundlefarts. The snake was worth it at the time, it still should be. Doesn't matter what others sell them for or buy them for. Prices will never be exact, it's the beauty of a free market. Therefore I don't think price changes for papered animals should matter at all. If people find it valuable, they'll seek it out just like I seek out people with good info on their animals. If they don't give a tinker's darn, then they won't even bother to ask.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that they should or should not register, they will if they want to. Just realize the things it can (and can't) do for the corn population at large. Every system has its pluses and minuses. The decision is yours.

:santa:

 

[Joejr14]

Yeah I think this is a bit crazy. Problem is, as stated, breeders like Rich and Kathy have way too many snakes and babies to keep track of everything.

I think the ONLY way you could do this, would be with a computer program....sort of like a scanner. But again, then you require someone to take a lot of time to scan items and such. It might be feasible with smaller breeders, in order to build repuatation. I think it's obvious that big breeders such as Rich and Kathy, certainly dont need their rep increased.

There's also a lot of people who will always buy from big breeders, just because. Hell, Rich could label a rattlesnake a corn and someone would buy it. Extreme example, but you get my point.

I guess you might be able to try it, but I just dont see how it's feasbile.

 

[TheIronRod]

An interested outsider

I do not own any corn's as of yet but have been seriously thinking about it. I do think it is a very cool idea as long as the price to take care of it stayed low. But I also understand that whoever runs it needs compensation also. I am curious about a couple things. In earlier posts the deadline was mentioned and talked about a bit but I never really saw or maybe understood the answer. What happens if there is someone like me who is interested in the snakes but does not actually get one and want to register it until next march lets say? If the fact that I don't have a snake yet and am saying these things offends anyone please ignore anything I say. Also I feel like you may be wanting people to include too many pictures. I think it is fine to ask people to include photos maybe even require one but I believe 3-4 were mentioned I think that is a bit much. I know we live in a technological age where most people have digital cameras so pics seem to be easy. But for someone like me who doesn't have a great camera and can't afford to buy one and doesnt have the time to try to get pics cleaned up it could make it a little difficult.

Thanks for listening,
Rodney :santa:

 

[Hurley]

I'm crazy into the pedigree of my snakes too (I even use genealogy software made for people to keep track of my snakes lineage), but I don't know I would want to pay for this service, especially since I can just do it on my own and pass it along to my customers when they buy a snake from me.

Likewise, I have all the info on my snakes that I can gather. I give that info out with each snake. Whether you wish to pay the "upkeep costs" to register your animals or not is a personal choice and I don't think either decision is "bad". I personally like the idea of combining animal and line information from multiple breeders into a central place and would chip in the nominal fees associated to help it fly. If I buy an animal that has papered history, that automatically fills out a branch on my pedigrees that otherwise would have been a chopped off stump. If the registry gets enough participation and a few generations under its belt, it'll be a valuable tracking tool for those lines submitted.

 

[Hurley]

I wish I could say how she's going to do this thing, but I can't. If I was to put it together, I'd require one good, clear dorsal shot and leave the others optional. I also wouldn't "close the book" without leaving a workable solution for appendixing new snakes in. This isn't horses where they have one foal a year, and I think incoming info/records are a good thing.

As far as fees go, sounds like it was going to be pretty nominal. Perhaps give discounts to registration of entire clutches or X number of animals and up?

 

[Amanda E]

As far as fees go, sounds like it was going to be pretty nominal. Perhaps give discounts to registration of entire clutches or X number of animals and up?

I think she estimated $3-5 per snake, right? Well, for me (not including my hatchlings), that would end up being $33-55. Maybe I'm cheap, but that's a lot of money to me that I'd prefer to use to get another snake rather than to register my current ones. Then again, who knows, if this gets off the ground, I may get all of mine registered afterall.

 

[Hurley]

Yeah, it's all in how you look at it. To register a new colt it's $25, miss the deadline and it's $50.

Don't know if she'll offer "group discounts" or what, but it's all in what you are willing to pay or not. Some people will argue an hour for a dollar. Some wouldn't blink at $200.

But, agreed, it's either worth it to you or it isn't. It's an individual decision and if you think it's worth $3 for the time it takes to permanently track that snake etc., then you'll go for it. Or you'll register just your breeders, or whatever.

I don't know if I would register all the hatchlings or just my keepers and send forms for registration with the hatchlings with the new owners or what. Probably the latter. Just like the photos, you'll either take them all or just the minimum. I doubt there will be many in the intermediate "take some, but not all" categories.

I don't know if she'll have "litter" registrations like they do in AKC where the space (number) is held, but not active until someone submits a registration on the puppy with name, etc. I'd personally love to see a clutch listing so you have complete info on phenotypes from the crosses submitted, we'll see what she ends up doing.

Anyway, it's something fun to think about.

 

[Joejr14]

Just curious, but why phenotype and not genotype, or at least predicted.

Obviously that would be difficult to say with 100% certainty especially with a snake with many hets, but what's the real point of listing the phenotype?

If this were to work, I think you'd just have to collect a set amount to join, and then have each person be responsible for the upload of their snakes information. Maybe assign each person a batch number or serial number for each clutch, etc. Something like that seems plausable, but I just dont see it working any other way.