Why they're called "stargazers"...

[Hurley]

I recently was handed the opportunity to acquire 3 stargazing hatchlings and 3 siblings to stargazers. I welcome the opportunity to study them and see how they progress as they age. (Photos below)

Stargazing appears to be a recessively inherited abnormality and I'm hoping these guys will be breedable to prove out the theory.

Basically their neurological system is not normal. They appear to have some difficulty coordinating fine motor control, causing them to make wide-sweeping motions with their heads when stimulated to move about. They often will flip their heads up and over and sleep with their heads upside down. When not in motion, if they have their head right side up, you'd never know anything was wrong them.

Cognitively, they appear to be perfectly aware and content, willing to eat, drink, strike if need be, and explore like a normal snake, but without the normal coordination. They have the same sweet personalities and same curiosity of a normal hatchling. They don't appear to be in any distress and take what they've been handed and get on with life.

Here are a couple photos depicting why the stargazers got their name...

I've posted this here in the insider's forum to avoid some of the backlash a post like this can generate in the bulk of the forum. I thought it may be of interest to some of the corn enthusiasts here.

 

[desertanimal]

That is really quite interesting, and I think it's great that you're going to put in the effort to try to establish the genetic basis of the condition. Good luck with that. It reminds me of those little dogs with neurological disorders that can't stop "biting flies."

 

[TandJ]

Thanks for posting this Connie.. I appreciate it, and would not consider giving any back lash on this.. Hopefully your research will find a break through on the nature.. Would be nice to know and understand what exactly is going on here..

Regards.. Tim of T and J

 

[zwyatt]

Wow, that really looks interesting. It certainly looks uncomfortable, and I would hate to think that they might be in any kind of distress. I guess the fact that they seem to function normally with no problems other than the abnormal disposition is the best way to assume they're not suffering. I don't know, it still just looks so awkward.

I look forward to hearing/seeing what develops out of this opportunity you have to study them.

 

[Drizzt80]

I admire your bravery in posting your desire to study this condition further. Not sure that it is something I completely agree with, and will withhold from heated debate or discussion of the topic. From a scientific standpoint the results will be interesting to see and potentially valuable. From a hobbyist/breeder standpoint, I don't agree with it.

D80

 

[Hurley]

Point taken and understood, but one thing to consider (from my point of view - a positive) is the value of such animals in preserving lines when/if stargazing appears in them. The gene (assuming it is a gene) is out there, hidden for the moment, but outcrossing does not reduce the incidence of a recessive trait. It will spread and it will be there when the "cross results of a lifetime" appears and you also hatch out a couple stargazers. How are you going to test cross those one-of-a-kind siblings and determine which animals are carrier-free without known test breeders or a test of some type? If I let this line of star-gazing fade away we've lost a valuable tool that we may need in the future.

I do understand and even agree with not wanting to study these snakes if they are suffering. However, I've been around enough neurologic animals to know that they have the greatest gift of not knowing life isn't supposed to be this way. They don't pine and worry and moon over not being "normal", they just adjust and carry on with their lives. They eat, drink, sleep, and act otherwise normally. I see no reason to put functional, content animals down (like blind snakes or minorly kinked hatchlings), and I feel the same about these guys.

I'm sure the hiccup comes with the 2nd aspect - breeding a clutch of them. That in itself is a judgement call and a personal ethics call. Everyone will have an opinion on it, and I see no right or wrong answer on this one. The clutch would have 2 goals. 1) to give proof of genetic inheritance and it's recessive nature, and 2) to produce animals that will be humanely euthanized and submitted for research, which has not been done as of yet.

Is it bad to raise and produce an animal you know you are going to put down? I do it with my mice or pay someone to do it for me, as does anyone feeding corn snakes. I did it growing up on a beef cattle farm. As long as these animals are handled with the respect and humane practices they deserve, in my set of values and views this is not an unethical thing to do. Others may not hold the same view and are certainly welcome to do so.

As always, good discussion. I welcome more.

 

[Joejr14]

Nevermind that, is that a bloodred stripe in that last picture, or just a really dark stripe?

 

[Hurley]

It's a stripe with some Okeetee heritage.

 

[carol]

What a valuable task you have taken on! I wish I could rep you, but I guess I don't spread enough around.

However, I've been around enough neurologic animals to know that they have the greatest gift of not knowing life isn't supposed to be this way. They don't pine and worry and moon over not being "normal", they just adjust and carry on with their lives. They eat, drink, sleep, and act otherwise normally. I see no reason to put functional, content animals down (like blind snakes or minorly kinked hatchlings), and I feel the same about these guys.

Isn't that the truth. We have a hamster that got one of his back feet chewed off when he was a day or so old. He runs on the wheel and services the ladies like no one's business. We constantly joke how he must think the other hamsters are freaks having four feet and all.

 

[Drizzt80]

. . .but one thing to consider (from my point of view - a positive) is the value of such animals in preserving lines when/if stargazing appears in them. The gene (assuming it is a gene) is out there, hidden for the moment, . . . If I let this line of star-gazing fade away we've lost a valuable tool that we may need in the future.

I'm sure the hiccup comes with the 2nd aspect - breeding a clutch of them. That in itself is a judgement call and a personal ethics call. Everyone will have an opinion on it, and I see no right or wrong answer on this one. The clutch would have 2 goals. 1) to give proof of genetic inheritance and it's recessive nature, and 2) to produce animals that will be humanely euthanized and submitted for research, which has not been done as of yet.

I do it with my mice or pay someone to do it for me, as does anyone feeding corn snakes.

Exactly why I'm not going to get too worked up over it . . .
Now, if you're going to feed them strictly chicken parts once you hatch out a clutch . . . then we're gonna have words! :crazy02: :sidestep:

D80

 

[Hurley]

Heh, not unless they won't eat mice. I did have one gal who lived on chicken parts until she was big enough for rat pinky heads and pieces. She just hated mice, entirely. Luckily that trait was not evident in her clutches. Voracious eater, just wants you to "hold the mice, please".

 

[ghosthousecorns]

I understand your reasons for trying to breed those, but I'm kind of wondering if their 'handicap' will impair their ability to breed in the first place. When it seems like the male will probably not be able to rub his head on the female's back like they usually do.
Hope the project leads to some answers and information.

 

[Hurley]

Only time will tell, and yes, that is a question that we'll find the answer to in time (if they go on to grow and thrive).

As for the affected kids, they're in their boxes now and are out and exploring actively their new surroundings with interest. Other than a little wave of the head here and there, they look fairly normal when relaxed and out prowling. Keep in mind those photos are just the most extreme photos I could get while stimulating them to move about to show why they are called stargazers. They aren't like that 24/7, it's just a snapshot in time as they waved their heads. If you leave them alone, they get along quite well.

 

[Joni Garcia]

I commend you for pursuing this project as this type of study will be very beneficial. Thanks for sharing it with us. I look forward to seeing updates as they grow and to hearing more about your findings in the next generation. Kudos to you for taking on this project!

 

[Piper]

Thanks for posting this. Such research definitely has value in determining if this condition is inheritable & recessive. It's important to acknowledge the possibility & test it out. If it is recessive, we can't just wish it away... it will continue to propagate. I wish you luck with them, keep us updated.

 

[Russell]

interesting...

When I got in the group of Okeetees last year I had a baby that would do this flipping the body thing every now and then. Otherwise she was perfectly normal. I thought maybe she had been injured in some way and I put her down. But later thought, hey, this is Kathy's line of Okeetees, and she talked about Sunkissed babies having problems...could it be this same thing manifest in this baby? Well this years bunch, again there is one that I'm not totally sure on. I'll have to continue to watch that one. Brent I showed you that baby!

But as stated, it isn't that they sit there all the time doing this. It just happens from time to time that they move diff from a normal corn. Head going up back and over and such stuff. I will let you know if this is indeed a similar case. I will most certainly be following this thread! Good for you Connie, I agree we do need to find out more about what this is. It'll do the corn world good to find out.
Russell

 

[Drizzt80]

. . . just the most extreme photos I could get while stimulating them to move about to show why they are called stargazers. They aren't like that 24/7, it's just a snapshot in time as they waved their heads. If you leave them alone, they get along quite well.

okay, so now proving my open-mindedness, what if it's not a genetic deformity, but some kind of 'inherited' defense mechanism or reaction to a stressor. Isn't it hognose and bull snakes that play dead? :shrugs:

D80

PS. Russell did show me his stargazer, and it didn't react near as 'violently' (?) as the one's Hurley pictured. Of course, we didn't poke it around to move, or 'stress' it to get the reaction. That's what made me think of the above . . .

 

[Hurley]

The irregular movements aren't voluntary, that I can tell you. The more they try to concentrate on something requiring fine motor control, the more they start to weave and wobble, regardless of whether they feel threatened or not. You can see a hint of the signs while they're just out and about, but the more intense they get (like when offered food), the more they tend to weave and bobble and turn their head upside down.

I will say, though, that there's nothing at all wrong with their appetite. Holy crow, I about lost an arm to the little 8 gram things today. Their behavioral responses are fully intact. They also didn't seem to have any trouble getting their meals down and were convinced they needed more. One ate hers upside down, but righted herself after eating and crawled off content as a lark, looking for more.

They very much remind me of my cerebellar hypoplastic cat, Quill (aka Beanie). This is a condition where the cerebellum (in charge of coordination of complex movements such as throwing a ball as well as fine motor control, among other things) fails to develop properly. In cats, this is caused by the mother having distemper while pregnant and the virus destroying the normal development of the cerebellum. The kittens are healthy and mentally normal, but their fine motor control isn't there. They tend to high step with a wide-based stance. The more intense they get (like chasing a string), the more uncoordinated they get. They get "intention tremors" when focusing hard on something, like when eating or drinking, so their head bobs or tremors. They don't worsen through life, in fact, many during the first couple years seem to improve as their brain learns to cope. Some of those kittens can be so bad that they'll fall over, but most have perfectly happy lives, if a bit drunken-looking while walking.

The condition in corns so far appears to inherit recessively. No clutch mates suddenly develop signs later on (as if it were contagious), the parents never show signs, and the stargazer hatchlings follow certain lines. We just lack a couple planned crosses to be able to prove we have what we have here. (Especially needed are stargazer x stargazer, but also stargazer x het and stargazer x normal. We've got results on several het x het and het x normal clutches.) We also lack any real knowledge of whether or not the condition worsens with time. I'm betting it doesn't, but we'll see.

 

[Susan]

This is totally fascinating! I really haven't heard much of this contidion before, especially about it being potentially inherited. I thought it "just happened" on those rare occasions. You mentioned a similar, but not inherited, conditon in cats. I wonder if there is anything similar in humans that this research may be beneficial to. Might be worth looking into.

 

[PtDnsr]

I don't know a ton about it and have never seen a stargazer in person but I think it's fascinating. Definately keep us updated!

~Katie