Operations Management

OK, I'll admit it's not the sexiest title for a thread; but it encapsulates the information that I'm requesting from all y'all. (There's that Cooter influence!) :eek1:

Anyhow, thanks to everyone here, this has become my new addiction. While I currently keep just three corns (the first acquired just last July), I drool over and covet every pic of a bloodred, okee, butter, and hypo lav. So of course, I'll be adding to the collection (don't we all?) over the months/years.

Which leads to my inquiry: While I certainly understand that as one's collection changes, so does the husbandry (i.e., if you've got two dozen adults, you're more than likely using a rack system vs. 20L tanks; breeding your own feeders or buying f/t in bulk vs. schlepping to the pet store, etc.).

What I'm asking for are accounts from your "operations" as to HOW YOU transitioned from "dabbler" to "serious hobbyist", from "serious hobbyist" to "breeder", and so forth. I'm very interested in reading about time spent/time increased in basic husbandry chores such as enclosure cleaning/maintenance, feeding (if you have a relatively large collection, do you have a "feeding day", or do you "stagger" your feedings - and if so, is there a "pinkie/fuzzy/hopper day", or "hatchling/yearling/adult day"?) - since, while I'm interested in expanding my collection and in time, start some breeding projects, I'm also realistic in my time constraints (yeah, the day job) and other avocations (my primary animal joy will always be training/trialing my dog).

So let 'er rip. If you've got 8 corns or 80, give me your real-life accounts of how you optimize your time, your space, your resources - basically, how you do that voodoo that you do so well.

Thanks in advance,
jazz

Hey Jazz...

I just started owning reptiles again last July as well...I had owned them for years in my younger twenties...but hadn't owned them since l before I met my wife (this will be our 4th year married)...

I finally got her to agree to a snake...since my passion for snakes was not being fulfilled at the time...our youngest child was older than INFANT...and I owned my own home...so no landlord or moving to deal with...

I got a cali king mid-july last year...an early birthday present...by early september I had purchased my first two corns from Gardenmum (excellent snakes btw)...by October I had also acquired a Thayeri (variable) Kingsnake and a Pueblan Milksnake (R.I.P.), and two more corns (I got Caine, a normal, indirectly from Hurley and Serp and the other was a very young non-feeder who succumbed to the anorexia)...I got a mate for my Thayeri in Jan...and 6 more corns the same month...
I have one more corn on order awaiting warm weather (Thanks Terri), 2 BP's being shipped in April...two het albino BP's I am picking up next week...2 dumeril's boas awaiting warm weather...and am starting payments on a pair of Womas expected in June...

I started out with tanks...and do have a bunch of them...I even built a fairly large shelf in my basement to hold tanks...and someday I will utilize it...although it isn't quite as functional as I would prefer...I have definitely switched to racks...and they are the WAY to go...
Easy to clean...easy to maintain...easy to heat...
I will not buy anymore tanks once I have enough to fill my shelves...only racks from here on out...

I try to feed all my snakes on the same day...sometimes they get shifted to another day...or sometimes they are on seperate feeding schedules...but I try to bring it back to one day a week for everybody...really makes it much much easier if they are all on the same schedule...

Where to start.....

I guess I'll start with the bottom line up front: There is a thin line between being a keeper and being kept.

There comes a point in which each keeper will eventually reach his or her natural threshold for maintaining a collection. For some it might be 10 animal and for others it will be 200. Something that seems like a lot of fun really becomes a lot of work. When this happens, the hobby will start to lose its appeal and enjoyment.

Out of necessity, you will eventually be forced to quit worrying about the inconsequential "white noise" of husbandry and are forced to focus on the hard core needs of your animals. You stop dwelling on minor temp fluctuations or how much time the snake spends cruising their viv. Gone are the days of simply thawing out a single rodent and changing the water daily. Feeding and maintaining a large collection can easily consume your entire weekend or 3-4 nights during a week.

When you have so many mouths to feed, you really don't have the luxury of focusing unlimited amounts of time and effort on a non-feeder hatchling, especially if you have several of them. I know that sounds callous, but it is just a reality of large collection husbandry.

As much as I'd like to answer your questions and give you logical and sound advice, the truth is that you will just have to find what works best for you and your situation. I will make the following recommendations:

1. Don't rush out and buy a collection overnight. Spend some time and grow it slowly.

2. Buy some breeder adults so you don't have to wait years to experience the thrill of hatching out something new.

3. Use your holdbacks to grow you holdings. I can't tell you how many one-of-a-kind keepers I've sold off because I just didn't have the time and room for anymore snakes.

These suggestions will allow you to ascertain where your threshold is before you unknowingly cross it.

Just my .02.

A little redirection, here....

Derek, Gary, thanks for the responses. I guess I'd like to clarify the information I'm requesting (I have this nasty habit of knowing what I want to get, and not knowing exactly how to get it......the software developer's curse).

While it's *understood* that, for example, a rack system is more efficient for larger collections than tanks - I can get "best practices" regarding husbandry though the various threads here - what was your personal "critical mass" when you changed the way you keep your snakes? When did you say to yourself....

"Self, this <insert your then-current and now 'antiquated' husbandry practice here> just isn't working anymore - I'm crossing that fine line from keeper to kept. Im'a hafta change some things around here."

Now, granted, I already know, to a good extent, what MY criteria/critical mass is/will be for changing my "operations". I was wondering what YOUR criteria were when you made a change (outside of the obvious "my collection is growing") in your keeping practices.

Whether it was housing, feeding, cleaning, or breeding is of no significance to me. I just want to know, FOR YOU, which of these (among others) caused you to have (WARNING: HACK PHRASE AHEAD) a paradigm shift in how you "ran" your corn keeping.

Any others out there care to share? Bueller?

regards,
jazz

Both of you make some great points, especially the one about knowing your limits. And there are many times a hobby can overwhelm you fast. I know a lot of dog breeders, mostly confirmation who breed to get that perfect champion. Then end up with large amounts of pets who are not getting the attention they need. Two of my guys were given to me by a breeder friend who wanted to place her dogs in a good home rather then keep them as kennel dogs. I currently have 5 dogs, will never ever get that many again. I love them all to death but the do hold me back from a lot of things that if I only had 2 or 3 it wouldn't.

As far as corns go I'm far far far from a breeder. I only have two and would like to get one more. Here lately I have been debating on getting further into corns. ie breeding and stuff. But I think after reading the posts it wouldn't be for me. I like my corns as pets and when you get into lots of them you loose that indivdual connection. If that makes sense. I'm sure all the breeders have their favorites and their pets. But when it comes to the other snakes they have to think realistically.

This is OT but what kind of dog do you have and what do you train in?
My guys do Agility and Obedience. But I'm really considering slacking on formal obedience and getting more into Rally. Especially with my oldest male who was Attacked 2 times on out of site stays and now won't do them. We are working on that. Sorry to pull this OT.

Thanks to those that have posted already! I too look forward to reading more if anyone else posts.

Jean

JeanH said:

I like my corns as pets and when you get into lots of them you loose that indivdual connection. If that makes sense. I'm sure all the breeders have their favorites and their pets. But when it comes to the other snakes they have to think realistically.

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Unfortunately this is all too true Jean. I try to stay as far away from that as possible. I have currently only 21 corns. Thats about as high as I want to go. I am walking that fine line between a breeder and a hobbyist. I do breed, and I do sell what I produce, but the reason I say "on that line" is because though I have many mouths to feed and take care of, I will not own more than I can care for, and I care for my corns extensively. I am by no means saying that owning more than that means you can't take care of them, but I try to keep that "individual connection" with each and every one of my snakes. Some of my snakes I have owned for 10 years or more. I have been breeding for a while, but have just recently started learning about genetics, in depth info about morphs, inheritance, etc etc. I guess I've been "bitten by the breeder bug" because now that I know more about what I'm doing, I would like to get out there and do as much as I can with what I've got. I don't think I will ever own 200+ like some of the big breeders on this site do, and I don't really care about it. If you notice, you don't see me selling many snakes at all on this site or online at all. The herp hobby is still kind of rare in Az, and many local people come to me for info, additions to the family, advice, etc and I would rather keep it personal. I can make sure that a hatchling I sell, be it cornsnake, BP, gecko, or beardie, is going to a good place with the right care and the right housing.

My personal change in just about ALL my husbandry came when I realized...quite quickly...that, due to my addiction, my collection was going to outgrow the usefulness of tanks...once I had a tank upstairs...one in the living room...and several in the basement...the up and down the stairs for supplies and the variety of feeding schedules drove me to realize...I AM addicted...I WILL have more snakes SOON...and somethings got to give.
So I moved to racks...still have multiple tanks (yes...I STILL have one upstairs and one in the living room...but the upstairs one is getting moved to the basement THIS weekend...as long as I have been putting it off!!)...but now the main part of my collection is in racks...the tanks are still being used...to some degree...but have become such a hassle...in all ways.
I will always have a few tanks...I suppose...but all my other functions are streamlined enough that my collection can grow a huge amount before I have to re-examine my workings and make some changes...

My husbandry for 12 snakes takes me a couple hours a week...adding snakes isn't going to make that time allotment increase at nearly the rate the snakes will...

JeanH said:

This is OT but what kind of dog do you have and what do you train in?

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I have a Lab, from Candlewood Kennels. If you think herpers have a specific "subculture", you haven't seen anything compared to retriever field trial geeks.

He's trained for duck and pheasant hunting, and I'm considering getting him "titled" via AKC Hunt Tests. (Hunt test champions are judged against a standard; field trial dogs compete against each other.) Given my training experience, time, and resources, that'll be good enough for me. For now, I'm happy to have him as a "meat dog".

I know a lot of dog breeders, mostly confirmation who breed to get that perfect champion. Then end up with large amounts of pets....

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IMHO, then they're in it for their own ego, and not for the love of the breed. They've crossed that line Cav mentioned between "keeper and kept". I once read the best advice for starting a dog kennel:

1. Find an adequate parcel of land for building the kennel.
2. Rent a backhoe, for landscaping the parcel.
3. Using the backhoe, dig a hole approximately 3 feet by 8 feet, 6 feet deep.
4. Pour all funds committed to kennel into hole.
5. Jump in hole. Using backhoe, delegate someone to close hole with landfill.

Point being, of course, that if you intend to find wealth in anything that eats and poops, it's not going to happen, so thin YOURSELF from "the herd".

Sorry to pull this OT.

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Oh man, don't get me started on my dog. I'll bore you faster than Kathie Lee Gifford talking about her children. :eek1:

regards,
jazz

Alias47 said:

I will always have a few tanks...I suppose...but all my other functions are streamlined enough that my collection can grow a huge amount before I have to re-examine my workings and make some changes...

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I'm just using glass tanks now, too. In time, I'll move to a rack system, but will retain the tanks for a select few. No different than serious aquarists, who will have a "show" tank in the den/living room, and a dozen "breeding/keeping" tanks in the basement.

My husbandry for 12 snakes takes me a couple hours a week...adding snakes isn't going to make that time allotment increase at nearly the rate the snakes will...

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Cool, thanks for the info. This is what I was wondering about.

regards,
jazz

I started with glass tanks. Space constraints (I average right now 30 misc. reptiles) caused me to purchase racks. I do keep a number of animals on display through out my house though. My "favorites."

CAV said:

1. Don't rush out and buy a collection overnight. Spend some time and grow it slowly.

2. Buy some breeder adults so you don't have to wait years to experience the thrill of hatching out something new.

3. Use your holdbacks to grow you holdings. I can't tell you how many one-of-a-kind keepers I've sold off because I just didn't have the time and room for anymore snakes.

These suggestions will allow you to ascertain where your threshold is before you unknowingly cross it.

Just my .02.

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This is excellent advice Cav, thanks for breaking it down! And thanks to Jazz for starting this thread for those of us who are at the point between "pet snake keeper" and "hobbiyst/future hobby breeder".

I have a house FULL of animals and caring for all of them takes many hours a week, though right now it is something I fully enjoy. I never look at my tanks and say "Oh man, I've got to clean them AGAIN???".

I also enjoy the beauty of a glass viv, and have them everywhere in my house but my bathroom. Too much humidity in there. I've also scoped out enough room for 10 more much to my husband's chagrin. LOL Though I don't have any disillusions, I know whenever I start breeding I will have to use racks for the hatchlings. But as Cav pointed out, I want to take it somewhat slowly.

I enjoy getting my corns as hatchlings, and watching them grow, as well as the fact that they are less expensive than adults, though I have to admit I am jealous at all of you who have breedings, clutches laying, and hatching going on. I am considering buying 2 adults to try my hand at that, but still have alot more research to do before I take that step.

In regards to that I have a few questions to those of you who breed:

1. When you first started breeding (and even now I suppose) what did/do you do with the hatchlings that didn't sell? I know you can't realistically keep them all, you would eventually become overrun. This is an especially important question to me as the 2 adults I will buy will probably be run of the mill morphs that are not in high demand so the babies wont be the easiest to sell compared to the "higher end" morphs.

2. How long do you keep them before they are ready to go to new homes? I know they have to be actively feeding and shedding, but is that established at 1 month? 2?

3. What happens if you decide to lower the price to ensure that the ones you don't hold back are sold so that you are not "stuck" for lack of a better term, with a rack full of hatchlings? Is your stock looked at as not good enough to garner market price? Would folks think there was something wrong with them and that's why you lowered the price? I guess I'm saying is your reputation as a breeder affected?

4. Do you all have any other ways that you sell besides the internet, word of mouth or shows? And if you sell at shows how much does a table usually cost?


I want to get into breeding my snakes honestly for the thrill of watching the whole process and just like most breeders, one day say "hey, that was one of MY babies!". I'm a realist, I know very few of you are making money compared to your husbandry costs, profits are not my motivation at the moment. I just want to get as much info as I can before I try my hand at it.

Sorry guys for the long winded post, and thanks in advance for your answers! :wavey:

Jazz - I can talk about dogs all day long too! lol! I'm sure the hunting trials are like the obedience agility trials. You have those that have to get perfect scores and take it soooo seriously. Then you have the ones like me who are there to have fun! When it stops being fun then I will stop doing it! Good luck with the hunt trials.

3 of my guys came from small breeders who do it for the love of the breed. The other two were freebies from a large breeder. She has nice dogs and cares for them. That is what she does full time, but I think she breeds way too much.

Jean

I'd have to say my conversion was rather gradual. I started with an aquarium and a snake. Said snake was from a charcoal to a normal but much more contrasty, anery type A or B unknown...and what the heck is an anerythristic? Yeah....hook, set, spike. Of course I had to get a snow to prove her out as an anery A and later I fell in love with ghosts and pewters.

Fast forward a few years and I've got a shelf with 4 aquaria and a couple more elsewhere...then I added a couple sterilites for a couple hatchlings here and there. Added some more when I bred my first clutch. Added still more as hatchlings grew and I added more. I don't think I ever had a time where I said to myself, "Self - you need to convert everything today," but I do have mostly sterilites and shelves now.

I still have names for every single keeper snake and know them all, their tendencies, tempterments, feeding schedule, likes and dislikes. I still enjoy cleaning day (and yes, it takes a minimum of half a day to clean and feed if I try hard and don't fiddle around much playing with them) and feeding. If it gets to the point where it's a chore to just keep them fed and cleaned and/or if I can't remember their names anymore, then I've got too many.

I never plan on being a big-time breeder, this is my hobby and keeps me sane. This is what I enjoy doing on my off-time from work. It's a great relief for stress and I want to keep it as such.

Great Discussion!!!

This is something we all either should face or have faced I would think.. And I have often wondered the same questions. I am in the same place as Jazz. Deciding on how to proceed in the future. Speaking for myself, and being a somewhat newbie to snakes and not being anywhere near an expert. Some advice I recently got was to take it slow. I could very easily go out an buy ready to breed adults, but to me that takes the fun out of it. My plan is to buy from the best breeders, raise up a good colony and take it from there. I have only one that I have grown to breeding size thus far but I do have a plan. I do not plan on "snakes" being my business, I simply want it to be a hobby. Honestly I do not care even if it pays for itself. If it does then great, but to me I am not going into it for that. SO if it doesn't turn a dime, I won't be disappointed. The reason I decided to get into snakes was because several years ago, in OKlahoma, (Gods country by the way) I kept a few mares and raised some colts. And I LOVED :grin01: loosing money with each one, and my investment was much more than what I have paid for a snake so far. But my enjoyment was in breeding, raising, and beaking the colts. I want the same thing for the snakes. Even today with the 5 I have, my kids love messing with and beg me to hold them before I feed. Its a family thing.

I do plan on using a rack, but I have some snakes that I will always leave out on display. I enjoy watching them move around. When it becomes a chore, I hope I have the good sense to either scale back, or get out. But I think I know what I want to do, and its not just to breed snakes for the sake of breeding snakes. I want to hatch out nice morphs, learn about all the genetic stuff, and enjoy what I do.

You will see me lurking around this forum, and in the chat just soaking all this in. I have a very demanding job and this is kind of my escape. Something that sets me aside from the rest of the folks at my office besides my southern "hick" accent.

THe following assumption my be applied to buyers: most aren't knowledgable

This is important to keep in mind for several reasons:

1) This is one of the best species specific sites online. There are less than 400 active members that participate in the discussions on here. That leaves about 6,100,000,000,000 other potential buyers in the world that are actively following the last and greatest in the corn world.

2) Many buyers at shows are younger buyers, or parents of younger buyers that are looking for a cheap (aka disposible) pet. They are not going to spend hundreds of dollars on a Lavamotlavanerythermel Striped snake.

3) About 95% of the people at a show thing your $40 hatchling is the same as Vendor B's $10 hatchling and they'll want to to match the price, They aren't intrested in hearing about different morphs or lineages.

JTGoff69 said:

In regards to that I have a few questions to those of you who breed:

1. When you first started breeding (and even now I suppose) what did/do you do with the hatchlings that didn't sell? I know you can't realistically keep them all, you would eventually become overrun. This is an especially important question to me as the 2 adults I will buy will probably be run of the mill morphs that are not in high demand so the babies wont be the easiest to sell compared to the "higher end" morphs.

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Actually you might be surprised at what sells. Most pet stores and show buyers aren't willing to pay top dollar, even for higher end morphs. Why? The average buyer doesn't care whether the snake is a Butter or a Normal, they just want it for $25. Most people that are willing to pay significantly more for a specific snake typically aren't contacting you at a show. I sell a lot of my top end stuff to other enthusiast or small breeders before the show starts.

All the lower end stuff that is left usually gets wholesaled off to local pet shops.

JTGoff69 said:

2. How long do you keep them before they are ready to go to new homes? I know they have to be actively feeding and shedding, but is that established at 1 month? 2?

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The smart business answer is "as soon as possible". One they eat a meal they are up and out as quickly as possible. Otherwise your marginal costs start eating up your profit. If you aren't concerned about the financial issues, then you can sell it whenever you feel like it.

JTGoff69 said:

3. What happens if you decide to lower the price to ensure that the ones you don't hold back are sold so that you are not "stuck" for lack of a better term, with a rack full of hatchlings? Is your stock looked at as not good enough to garner market price? Would folks think there was something wrong with them and that's why you lowered the price? I guess I'm saying is your reputation as a breeder affected?

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What happens is that you aren't going to make a dime, but the trade off is that you aren't losing your free time feeding hatchlings. That is what economist refer to as an "opportunity cost"; how much is your time worth to you?

The folks that are buying the leftovers aren't concerned with "why" you are selling them off for less. Price isn't the only factor in determining value. The reputation you make as a small time breeder is determined by your service and your quality, period. If your snakes are healthy, eat well and look nice, no one will remember that you cut $10 off the asking price.

I constantly change prices at shows based on what others are selling similar stock for. The first thing I do on Saturday morning is walk around and check out the other vendor’s tables. If there are a lot of corns, I have to lower my prices in order to be competitive. Otherwise the vendor with the lowest price will get the sell and I'll go home with everything I brought, and will be out the table fee to boot!

JTGoff69 said:

4. Do you all have any other ways that you sell besides the internet, word of mouth or shows? And if you sell at shows how much does a table usually cost?

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See above. I normally fork out $25-50 for space at a 2-day show.

I paid $40 - $75 for my tables. I sold three times the snakes at the show with the $75 table then I did at the show with the $40 table.

The higher end snakes don't sell as quik, but keep this in mind a high end snake eats the same as a cheap snake. Would you rather keep 20 normals for three months then sell them for a total of $300 or two hypo lavenders for the same amount of time and get the same sale price as the 20 normals? Bye the way check out the Serpenco.com price list and see whats left of the 2004s.
You would not believe how many people would buy one snake over another because snake a is $5 less then snake b. I sell picky eaters for $5 and they fly off the table even if there is a snake of the same morph right next to it for $15 that has eaten all of the ten meals its been offered. Some of the people buying the $5 snakes are hobbiests that will do well getting them to eat others will end up at sites like this one asking why they cant get thier new corn to eat :eek1: . I try to find wholesalers at shows and sell as many in bulk as I can. I would rather sell them to a wholesaler at $15 average per snake then sell them quik direct to customers at $18 average per snake.

That thing Gary said about crossing the threshold really struck a chord with me, I was up to 17 snakes at one point and have cut down to 13 with one I would still like to sell. It is an addictive hobby but at some point I began to feel I had so many corns that I wasn't able to pay enough attention to each one. I feel a dozen is a good number for me. I keep some in glass tanks and some in a rack, as for breeding and selling the hatchlings it is a lot of fun but a lot of work also. Bottom line is that it's part of what makes the hobby so much fun but I think if I had to deal with huge quantities it wouldn't be as enjoyable anymore. There is nothing as cool as watching that egg hatch and getting the snakeling to take the first meal, but when you have so many babies that the non-eaters don't get the extra attention and become expendable that to me is too many.

shed'n my skin said:

There is nothing as cool as watching that egg hatch and getting the snakeling to take the first meal, but when you have so many babies that the non-eaters don't get the extra attention and become expendable that to me is too many.

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:-offtopic That is to many for you to keep or acording to you , that is to many for anyone to keep? How do you describe "expendable"? Are they ependable if you feed them to your king, sell them for $5 at a show or if you flush them dowm the toilet after the 2nd refusused meal?
The way I look at it with or without anoles ect. on hand, hatchling corns alredy have a much better chance in captivity then in the wild. I don't feel I have an obligation to do everything humanly posible to get noneaters to eat. I would rather sell them to someone who would like to spend more time with them or feed them to a kingsnake. I would feel that way wether I hatched fourty or four hundred.

Jason B. said:

:-offtopic That is to many for you to keep or acording to you , that is to many for anyone to keep? How do you describe "expendable"? Are they ependable if you feed them to your king, sell them for $5 at a show or if you flush them dowm the toilet after the 2nd refusused meal?
The way I look at it with or without anoles ect. on hand, hatchling corns alredy have a much better chance in captivity then in the wild. I don't feel I have an obligation to do everything humanly posible to get noneaters to eat. I would rather sell them to someone who would like to spend more time with them or feed them to a kingsnake. I would feel that way wether I hatched fourty or four hundred.

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Ummm, that's just too many according to me/ too many for me to keep, I guess, If my post sounded judgemental I didn't intend that.It's just I personally would have a hard time flushing a baby snake or feeding it to another snake, so I spend the extra time and so far I've had 100% success getting them to eat though some of them required much patience. I don't do this for money but for enjoyment of the hobby and I have yet to have to euthanize a baby so I have been really lucky so far. Of course every keeper has their own threshold like Cav said I found mine and have decided to stay small.

Thanks Cav again, for breaking it down. You and Jason have answered all my questions and lessened my worries about not being able to locate new owners for the babies I do hatch out.

How many times realistically do you who have larger numbers of hatchlings try to get a hatchling to eat? At what point should you assume it is a non-feeder, and do you euthanize it at that point? And how? Since the majority of my snakes would be sold online, by the time I know that a certain hatchling is a non-feeder I wouldn't be selling it as a non feeder and shipping it.

As for your holdbacks, just curious as to how many per season you all end up with? I can see myself being hard pressed to decide, and especially if you have possible hets for a certain morph you are trying to acheive later on.