Egg-Binding & The "Tincture of Time"

My anery female laid 18 good eggs and 2 slugs on Monday, 4/30. Afterward it was clear that she still had at least 3 eggs in her, and they were all very high-- nowhere near the vent. For the next couple of days I massaged her, exercised her, and gave her a few lukewarm baths. On 5/3 she laid 2 more GIGANTIC slugs, but 1 egg was still lodged very far up. So I exercised and massaged her for days, giving lukewarm baths here and there. Finally she laid the last slug last night. She would not take food during this time, but she's on the downside of blue, so I'm going to wait.

I probably read every egg-binding thread archived here, but one from Connie Hurley was particularly helpful. I've seen her use the term "Tincture of Time" before, and it was especially appropriate in this case. She recommended the baths, the exercise, and the waiting. There was also a helpful thread from Brent (Drizzt80) that kept my panic at bay. And of course, I have to thank Dawn (Dawnrenee2000) with whom I was in email and phone contact comparing notes (she's going through a similar episode). Dawn knows her stuff, she's very helpful, and she's a heck of a nice person.

Two lessons I learned from my first egg-binding experience:

1. It's not the end of the world. Level-headedness is more constructive than panic.

2. DON'T BREED SQUISHY, UNTONED FEMALES! The warnings from experienced breeders (e.g., Carol, Susan) should have been enough for me, but this girl was way over 500g, and I knew what I was doing. I thought the eggs would pour right out of her, despite the warnings. WRONG!

This girl is officially retired. But her mega-growth genes will live on in her progeny. She was bred to Gil, my colorful ghost het amel.

Aww shucks..thanks Dean. I am really happy your girl did her part right! :dancer:

I am still waiting for my girl to finish pushing her egg out. It is now 1/2 inch from the vent, but I do agree that there is alot we can do to keep these from being dire situations. The swims, massages, excercise and sometimes a little lubricant, goes a long way in helping these girls do their part naturally. When all that fails, aspiration is a great next thing to do. My vet is awesome, but her first desire was surgery, and I think she too has learned that aspiration could be a good alternative in lots of cases.


It is nice to have support and advice as we learn our lessons first hand

Well, I am sure you are glad that ordeal is over. I was very glad that my snake finally got her egg out. Congrats on the good eggs and hopefully you never have a problem like that again. :cheers:

There is a definite relationship between dystocia and obesity. I don't know the entire story on this girl, but if she "grew fast and a lot" that means you were probably pumping food to her. Even without visible fat deposits, that likely means internal ones. That's a big player in dystocia. "Waiting" IS still the best plan in MANY cases, I believe, and slugs are frequently worse for females than fertile eggs. (I wonder if this is because slugs are uncommon in wild snakes naturally, so they body doesn't really recognize the urge to dump them - or if they are just harder to move down the tubes for one reason or another??)

Tim Ricks once showed me some eggs that remained in a female (not a cornsnake) from the PREVIOUS year that were deposited with the new clutch in the current year. I've had another large scale breeder tell me he's just left the little slugs in, and they've even come out during brumation. That would freak me out, but I have left them and had them come out during the Fall just before brumation.

I think we often just often over-react in some cases. I do not, nor do I think I ever will, recommend the swimming technique, though. I think it just adds stress to an already stressed snake! I believe the eggs move out DESPITE the water baths and not because of the water baths.

By the way, I have found ONE egg-bound wild snake. She didn't live, though. She looked BAD when I saw her, and the eggs were already rock solid.

KJ

KJUN said:

There is a definite relationship between dystocia and obesity. I don't know the entire story on this girl, but if she "grew fast and a lot" that means you were probably pumping food to her.

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She grew fast, and she grew large, but I certainly didn't power-feed her. In fact, because of her crazy growth rate, she was fed more conservatively than many of my other young corns. She just assimilated food like I've never seen from another snake, with the exception of her sister/clutchmate who had nearly the same growth-rate. The mistake I made was in assuming that her large size would be a mitigating factor for her squishiness (which was not extreme).

KJUN said:

I think we often just often over-react in some cases. I do not, nor do I think I ever will, recommend the swimming technique, though. I think it just adds stress to an already stressed snake! I believe the eggs move out DESPITE the water baths and not because of the water baths.

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I can't isolate which action(s) I took that contributed to the remedy of the condition. I'm not a fan of bathing snakes for almost any reason, but since it was recommended by Connie Hurley DVM, I decided to give it a shot. This isn't an appeal to authority (she's not a herp vet); I just respect her corn knowledge and common sense.

> She just assimilated food like I've never seen from another snake, with the exception of her sister/clutchmate who had nearly the same growth-rate.

You should see the food conversion rate on many "slowinskii" then....lol.

> but since it was recommended by Connie Hurley DVM, I decided to give it a shot.

Last I heard, she was a vet tech and not a DVM. Anyone knows if this has changed? Be careful saying she is a vet if she isn't (for legal reasons), but CONGRATS to her if she finally made it. It's a big, hard, difficult path - and congrats are due.

Now you have advice from a DVM/PhD relayed to you, too...and it is the opposite. Opinions are like vents - we all have one. (By the way, I'm NOT the vet - I'm just a lowly herpetologist....... My wife is a DVM with the PhD (in microbiology and infectious diseases), and has had a successful residency in lab animal medicine. Even without her decades of personal experience with herps in captivity, I've learned to listen to her. Plus, she beats me when I don't pay attention to her. :sidestep:

> This isn't an appeal to authority (she's not a herp vet); I just respect her corn knowledge and common sense.

Just as an FYI, you are correct: there is no such thing as a "herp vet" since there is no board approved for herps. Sure, many vets work on herps a lot, but legally that is a very different thing. They've talked about doing this, but I'm pretty sure it never came about. Neat factoid, eh?

KJUN said:

You should see the food conversion rate on many "slowinskii" then....lol.

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You ain't kidding. I have a Kisatchie pair, and their growth-rate/food assimilation is extraordinary. And they don't seem to be prone to "squishiness" either.

KJUN said:

Last I heard, she was a vet tech and not a DVM. Anyone knows if this has changed? Be careful saying she is a vet if she isn't (for legal reasons), but CONGRATS to her if she finally made it. It's a big, hard, difficult path - and congrats are due.

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http://www.wivrc.com/connie_hurley.html

KJUN said:

Now you have advice from a DVM/PhD relayed to you, too...and it is the opposite. Opinions are like vents - we all have one. (By the way, I'm NOT the vet - I'm just a lowly herpetologist....... My wife is a DVM with the PhD (in microbiology and infectious diseases), and has had a successful residency in lab animal medicine. Even without her decades of personal experience with herps in captivity, I've learned to listen to her. Plus, she beats me when I don't pay attention to her. :sidestep:

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I examined the opinions of many before I made a move. Had your advice been available when I was researching, it certainly would have been weighed appropriately!

Just as an FYI, you are correct: there is no such thing as a "herp vet" since there is no board approved for herps. Sure, many vets work on herps a lot, but legally that is a very different thing. They've talked about doing this, but I'm pretty sure it never came about. Neat factoid, eh?

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Definitely a neat factoid.

> I have a Kisatchie pair, and their growth-rate/food assimilation is extraordinary. And they don't seem to be prone to "squishiness" either.

No, they aren't. Just out of curiosity, who did you get your pair from? LA or TX stock?

Congrats to Connie. Funny how time flies, huh? Seems like it was just last week that I was breeding snakes to pay for college while my wife was getting her DVM that Connie bought her first snake from a friend of mine in AZ. Wow. Funny.....lol.

> I examined the opinions of many before I made a move. Had your advice been available when I was researching, it certainly would have been weighed appropriately!

Hey, who cares? The female is fine. What else matters? Not much. I'm just glad of that for YOU.

> Definitely a neat factoid.

I wish they would get a board certification in reptiles. Kasi'd add that her list immediately....lol. I think it'll be a while before we get THAT much recognition in the herp community, though.

KJUN said:

No, they aren't. Just out of curiosity, who did you get your pair from? LA or TX stock?

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I wish I could tell you. They are SMR stock, if that helps.

KJUN said:

Hey, who cares? The female is fine. What else matters? Not much. I'm just glad of that for YOU.

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Thanks. I'm very relieved myself. She's not a valuable animal, and she really has no place in my program, but I do like her as a pet.

KJUN said:

I wish they would get a board certification in reptiles. Kasi'd add that her list immediately....lol. I think it'll be a while before we get THAT much recognition in the herp community, though.

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It's a shame that there isn't certification.

Roy Munson said:

I wish I could tell you. They are SMR stock, if that helps.

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Nah, those are probably great animals, BUT Don works with both LA and TX stock. I love them. I like them too darn much, actually. I counted the other day, and I had over 30 "keepers"....lol. That is counting F1's from that new "sliver" WC male we plan to hold back this year. GRRRR!!!!!

That's neither here nor there, though: if yours are subadults are older, do you have any image(s) of them? I can tell you if they look more LA like or more TX like - SOMETIMES. They have a LOT over overlap, and many of the differences are shape-related. That is less obvious in captive animals AND in images, of course. If you even care. Theyarethesame thing, basically, so most people don't.

KJ

KJUN said:

Nah, those are probably great animals, BUT Don works with both LA and TX stock. I love them. I like them too darn much, actually. I counted the other day, and I had over 30 "keepers"....lol. That is counting F1's from that new "sliver" WC male we plan to hold back this year. GRRRR!!!!!

That's neither here nor there, though: if yours are subadults are older, do you have any image(s) of them? I can tell you if they look more LA like or more TX like - SOMETIMES. They have a LOT over overlap, and many of the differences are shape-related. That is less obvious in captive animals AND in images, of course. If you even care. Theyarethesame thing, basically, so most people don't.

KJ

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If you could try to identify if they look more LA or TX, I'd appreciate it. I don't have any recent pics, but I can take some tonight. I'll PM you with a link after I post the photos.