What is all this hype about stargazer syndrome

What is all this hype about stargazer syndrome in the sunkissed line . With all the okeetees the loves have sold over the years , With so many of their normal okeetees breed into other Okeetee lines and other morphs. how come is has not pop up all over the place in other morphs and Okeetee lines. I need to get a grasp of the problem or is it all hype. Like chicken little screaming the sky is falling RUN RUN RUN uke01:

It's a real condition. I don't know how widespread the gene is at this point. I'm not even sure if it has been definitively proven as genetic, but everything I've read seems to indicate that it's probably a simple recessive mutation. You might find this thread interesting:

Stargazing

As Dean said it is genetic, and I think the hype is where bigger breeders continue to breed stargazing animals, because it doesn't have ill effects on their reproduction capabilities. Why not breed an animal you have payed thousands of dollars for it? Just don't tell customers and hope the babies do not express the mutated gene.

Stargazing in spider royals is VERY common, but nobody knew until recently. Or should I say, nobody was willing to speak up until recently.

thanx for the thread link. so it showed up in other morphs too why then is only the sunkissed that people are woried about

Maybe because people have line bred it into sunkissed. Maybe thats where the gene originated.

Sunkissed hasn't been crossed into to many things yet so who knows where it will pop up!

Tula_Montage said:

Maybe because people have line bred it into sunkissed. Maybe thats where the gene originated.

Sunkissed hasn't been crossed into to many things yet so who knows where it will pop up!

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No but the okeeetees that it comes out of have bee breed out crossed all over the place

Well then maybe we will see it crop up more.

You have to remember that it is simple recessive, so for it to be expressed in any hatchlings, the mutant gene must be present in BOTH parents.

I have no doubt that more snakes than we will ever know carry the gene, but it has just not been paired to another animal carrying the gene to express it.

It is actually not just hype. It is a real condition that is simple recessive and is mostly found in the sunkissed animals as that is where it supposedly originated. Some breeders are testing their stock to known carriers of the "S-factor" to prove whether they have it in their collection to eventually produce lines using sunkissed that are stargazer free. The ACR actually has a place for it in the registry.

ACR on Stargazer

Roy Munson said:

It's a real condition. I don't know how widespread the gene is at this point. I'm not even sure if it has been definitively proven as genetic, but everything I've read seems to indicate that it's probably a simple recessive mutation. You might find this thread interesting:

Stargazing

Click to expand...

I moved this linked thread into the Genetics Issues forum since it was not able to be accessed by all members here.

I actually received an email not that long ago from someone alerting me about this problem. We had a pretty lively discussion, but unfortunately merely posting my half of that conversation won't mean much to most people....

I'd like to hear your opinion/experiences with this gene Rich....

Please don't burn me at the stake...

The Stargazer Project, continued...

Hopefully I won't be seen as a complete traitor by posting this here, but after reading the original thread about stargazing and Connie's/Hurley's project/work with the gene, I grew curious...and I wondered as to what happened with her project. So, I went to where I knew more of her recent comments have been posted, and if you're as curious as I am, you can read up on what Connie has found out and how her project has evolved.

I think that this is absolutely fascinating...and I wonder: how well would/do these snakes fare in the wild? Are they more prone to attack? Has anyone even seen a stargazer in the wild? As I've just been reading about this as of a few hours ago, my understanding is that for some snakes, stargazing is a sort of form "playing dead" to fool predators, but for corns, this is obviously not the case...would this then be classified as an abnormality?

And, for those breeders who have unknowingly bred this gene & sold stargazing snakes -- or snakes that carry the stargazing gene -- to others, does this then change your returns policy, or would that just be on a case-by-case basis?

Thanks... :cheers:

Well, some of this is mentioned in the emails I referred to. But someone's name is mentioned that I would rather not bring up in this context. And as mentioned, I'm not sure how much sense just my side of the conversation will be. Maybe I can cut and paste from the emails, but that might be messy looking.

Actually I believe this thread would be better off in the Genetics forum, since this may be a genetic trait that is being talked about. Yes or no?

Rich Z said:

Well, some of this is mentioned in the emails I referred to. But someone's name is mentioned that I would rather not bring up in this context. And as mentioned, I'm not sure how much sense just my side of the conversation will be. Maybe I can cut and paste from the emails, but that might be messy looking.

Actually I believe this thread would be better off in the Genetics forum, since this may be a genetic trait that is being talked about. Yes or no?

Click to expand...

No names need be mentioned...

Rich Z said:

Well, some of this is mentioned in the emails I referred to. But someone's name is mentioned that I would rather not bring up in this context. And as mentioned, I'm not sure how much sense just my side of the conversation will be. Maybe I can cut and paste from the emails, but that might be messy looking.

Actually I believe this thread would be better off in the Genetics forum, since this may be a genetic trait that is being talked about. Yes or no?

Click to expand...

I put it there but got no replies. I even sent Kathy Love a PM to help with some answers , I sent her a link to the thread and she didn't even post anything.

Actually, I just came in from setting up baby snakes all day, and just saw your link a few minutes ago.

There is already a lot of info posted (here and in the old threads). Connie has worked more with these than anyone as far as I know, and probably knows more about it than anyone.

The first time I ever saw or heard of such a thing is when I inbred my original okeetees enough to discover that they harbored the sunkissed gene, as well as the stargazing gene. AFAIK, star gazing has never turned up independently in any line that never had a drop of blood from the sunkissed project.

At first I didn't know what was going on. I eventually guessed it was a recessive trait, like sunkissed. I warned potential breeders that any sunkised or okeeteee that produced sunkissed could possibly carry the gene. But the gazer babies are immediately recognizable and can be culled at hatching. I also decided at that time to never cross sunkissed into any other lines, so that I won't have to deal with gazers in anything other than sunkissed and okeetees. I am still sorting out each new generation of okeetees to figure out which are carrying it, breeding youngsters with a known carrier. Others are doing the same thing with their colonies.

Other breeders have crossed sunkissed into various lines, and will have to deal with proving their gazer status until the gene is eventually bred out of various lines. I think the ACR will eventually help track it so people can weed it out.

I no longer keep sunkissed. I don't find them attractive enough to deal with the possible defect. I do like my okeetees enough to continue with the line and try to figure out their status. But I won't buy any snakes with known sunkissed genes as I don't want to take on more projects of that type.

Potential breeders should be warned that they may produce some babies that are basically kingsnake food and they can decide if they want to take on the risk of possibly dealing with it or not. I would expect that somebody who cares a lot about sunkissed will eventually produce some animals that are proven to not carry the gene (by breeding to known carriers a few times), and then they can offer a line that they guarantee to be "clean". But I don't think anyone is already offering that.

I don't think anyone has invested a thousand dollars in their sunkissed corn and needs to breed it for that reason. I think a lot of people really like them and want to see what they look like when combined with other traits. That means they may or may not have to deal with this problem.

I can't think of anything else at the moment.

Thanks for this info Kathy. I didn't know you felt so strongly about stargazers, enough to completely stop working with sunkissed.

I think that people who do care enough about sunkissed as a "look" rather than potential carrier of a mutant gene are probably breeding it into non sunkissed animals to reduce the possibility of having the gene expressed. IE Sunkissed x lavender etc. HOWEVER it is still possible for the "s-factor" to pop up in the F2 is it not?

It would reduce the chances of the gene being expressed though?

Not exactly. I didn't stop working with sunkissed only because of the stargazing problem. I just didn't find them nearly as attractive as regular okeetees, but didn't want to combine them with other traits and deal with gazers in previously unaffected morphs. It is enough to deal with getting it out of the okeetees. So there wasn't really any reason to keep them when I like regular okeetees so much more.

Can't keep 'em all (unless you want 4,000 babies like Rich, lol!) - so the sunkissed went!

Yes, if you dilute the gene with outcrossing, you will suppress it for a while. But it is still lurking and will pop back up eventually. The only way to rid your colony of it is to find a known homo or het animal of each sex, and then breed each unknown possible carrier to it, producing enough non-stargazing babies that statistically you can now call your animal "clean", or a non carrier of that trait.

what actually is the stargazed gene and does any one have a pic of a stargazed sunkiss?

Click on the links earlier in this thread for photos and descriptions. Should explain everything.