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The whole "Hybrid" conundrum...again ;)

cka

cka

memba
It seems like every new look, morph, gene that has come out in the last few years gets put under immediate suspicion of being some corn/rat cross. There's nothing wrong with investigating an animals background, asking questions, etc but we seem to find it easier to say "Oh, must be a hybrid" and condemn the animal to "Hybird" status. Reduced or increased blotches, unusual belly patterns, less/more side blotching, DO NOT make the animal in question automatically a cross. 99% of us who keep corns have WAY too
little experience with corns and rats to make definitive judgments.

Point to me all the markers on these snakes that would cause you to decide whether or not these can be definitively call "hybrids"

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FWIW I have my suspicions about these, and the breeder has the original female listed as "suspect", but who am I to throw my cards on the table and say without question "Must be crosses". They are frosted, but not the only corns out there that exhibit frosting. All three have about 50 saddles head to tail, checkered bellies...:shrugs:

JMHO folks :*)
 
They look stunning no matter what they are. I could see where like dogs purebreed would maintain a higher value, but if the animal is healthy I don't see anything wrong with hybrids as pets.

Sorry if I'm wrong, but I get a strong impression many people see hybrids as a bad thing.

I can't personally say I'd like to see them gain popularity, but that doesn't change the fact that many of them look quite nice.
 
cka said:
It seems like every new look, morph, gene that has come out in the last few years gets put under immediate suspicion of being some corn/rat cross. There's nothing wrong with investigating an animals background, asking questions, etc but we seem to find it easier to say "Oh, must be a hybrid" and condemn the animal to "Hybird" status.
Click to expand...

If it's very rare, expensive, or difficult to get hold of, it's a hybrid and I don't want one anyway. Kind of like Aesop's fox - if the grapes are too high to reach, they must be sour ;)
 
There is a tremendous variation in corns due to the large range of places they occur. I am one of the 99% who can't tell if a snake is hybrid based on things like saddle count and belly pattern. But I think that number should be 100%.
If somebody wants to be a stickler about it, every corn out there is suspect unless you have its breeding records for generations back and the purest looking corn out there could have a skeleton in its closet. When people who are self-appointed experts sit there and nitpick it kind of takes a bit of the fun out of the hobby for me :( Every new look seems to get accused of non-corn background. Genes DO mutate sometimes without having to add outcrossed blood.
 
I have absolutely nothing against hybrids. In fact, I have a lovely jungle in my collection and have high hopes of producing more of the same, as well as other varoius combos, in the future. I'm not that fond of creamsicles simply because their color doesn't appeal to me. I have enough yellowy orange amels in my collection as it is.

As for the 3 hatchlings pictures, I don't see anything "hybrid" at all about the anerys. The snow reminds me, in color only, of bubblegum rats, but I know that pure corns can be just as pink. But I'm also the first to admit that I am not that familiar with the other rat snakes and wouldn't be able to tell one from the other in a line-up without attached names. I would only be able to say that either the color, pattern &/or head didn't quite look like any of the "pure" corn snakes I have seen...nothing more, nothing less.

I've said it before...in 500 years, all the colubrid species are going to be so intermingled anyway that none of this is going to matter. I just want my robin's egg blue one before I die.
 
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The first one is without a doubt a hybrid, frosted corn. The colors, are wrong for a pure corn. The stone washed head pattern and saddles,and overall appearance give it away.The other 2 are harder to tell, and I would probably not suspect them of being a hybrid without having seen the first one. But once you see the first one, and compare the other 2 to Him (or Her) you see that the Anery's are still showing the stone washed head pattern, and saddles.

The only question I have about them is, are they just frosted corns, or are they frosted creamsicles?:shrugs:

Very nice looking snakes either way.
 
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The only problem I have with the whole hybrid debate, is people getting a new look by intentionally crossing, but then claiming it's a new pure corn morph. A new pure corn gene is worth a heck of a lot more than a new hybrid. Not accusing anyone in particular or calling out anything specific, but some are a bit questionable, IMO. I'm all for crosses, just like to see it done honestly and not to try and cash in through deceit.

But to be honest, there are probably very few "pure" corns left anyway (even in the wild), so even if crossed genes weren't intentional, it may still be the cause of a newly discovered gene. Maybe we should just forget about "pure" corn at this point and go with "pure" rat snake. At least king and other different types of crosses are much easier to see on the outside.
 
Duff said:
The only problem I have with the whole hybrid debate, is people getting a new look by intentionally crossing, but then claiming it's a new pure corn morph. A new pure corn gene is worth a heck of a lot more than a new hybrid. Not accusing anyone in particular or calling out anything specific, but some are a bit questionable, IMO. I'm all for crosses, just like to see it done honestly and not to try and cash in through deceit.

But to be honest, there are probably very few "pure" corns left anyway (even in the wild), so even if crossed genes weren't intentional, it may still be the cause of a newly discovered gene. Maybe we should just forget about "pure" corn at this point and go with "pure" rat snake. At least king and other different types of crosses are much easier to see on the outside.
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I'm not saying that doesn't ever happen, but with the ACR and the amount of very reputable breeders to choose from I'm just not ready to throw in the towel and say "they are all hybrids anyway" . If I buy a snake I have questions about it's not going to be bred to one I think is pure corn... I have faith in at least a few people out there to feel they wouldn't do it either. (At least not without making it clear the offspring are hybrids) For one thing a person who gets discovered to have done something like this can lose all credibility. For another, why would such a scammer bother with lowly corns, when ball pythons and other snakes are where the money's at. JMHO of course ;)
 
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abell82 said:
The only question I have about them is, are they just frosted corns, or are they frosted creamsicles?:shrugs:
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They are F2's from VMS Herps "Tequila Sunrise" female.

TequilaSunrise.htm

(hope that worked)

Quote from the site:
"Lately, many internet arm-chair experts have decided these may be hybrids with the Yellow Ratsnake (E. obsoleta quadrivirgata). Others believe they are created using the "Ultra" allele."

So i guess I'll call them "Frosted banana creams" lol
 
shed'n my skin said:
I'm not saying that doesn't ever happen, but with the ACR and the amount of very reputable breeders to choose from I'm just not ready to throw in the towel and say "they are all hybrids anyway" . If I buy a snake I have questions about it's not going to be bred to one I think is pure corn... I have faith in at least a few people out there to feel they wouldn't do it either. For one thing a person who gets discovered to have done something like this can lose all credibility.
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Just to expand on the point I was reaching for, there really is no way to know the purity of any line, as they all came from wild stock. The overlapping regions and ease of cross-breeding different rats in captivity mean it is probably very realistic to assume there are lots of naturally occurring wild crosses. That could even be the explanation of why some different regions have different specific looks. Then you also have to throw in the crosses that get sold as "pure" corn, whether intentional of just from not knowing doesn't matter for this point. So basically, there's really no way to know how pure a corn is (short of prohibitively expensive genetic testing, if that can even tell 100%), no matter how far back you can trace it's heritage or which reputable source it came from. Cross genes could be lying dormant and getting passed around for many generations before the perfect, unplanned parental matchup occurs.

I don't think anyone wants to know enough to pay for the testing, so it's all up to personal opinion on the questionable morphs.
 
abell82 said:
The first one is without a doubt a hybrid,
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Really?! Interesting, because I have one that's almost identical to the amount of frosting, without the pink, that I can track back 3 generations as being pure corn. Guess "without a doubt" is a bit strong?

Nothing in those 3 pics jumps out as definite hybrid to my eye. I'm frustrated as well with the number of times "hybrid" is immediately tagged to a corn that looks a bit different. It really happens with the Amels and creamsicle tag. At the same time as trusting your source, there would have to be questions about sources that you're not sure of. The choice is ultimately up to the person that purchases the snake(s). I do recognize though, that at the same time, there are some obvious markers especially for the king/milk crosses.

I personally have made a choice to stay away from known hybrids, but recognize the phallacy of having "pure" corns in today's market. I don't view hybrids as wrong so much as just not my cup of tea. :)

D80

SN008f.jpg
 
I would like to throw a thought into the wind here.

I don't mind hybrids physically speaking, yes it does bother me that they create a certain confusion and uncertainty when buying corns but some are really pretty.

My issue is more of an ethical one. Nature to this date has proved that a certain line of animals is the most fitting to survive. We as human beings, live only so long a time and yet we presume to think we know better. We don't really understand many of the implications to our actions. Nature is a setting that has existed millenniums before we came about, it set about rules and magnitude which we cannot duplicate due to their scale and the fact that we still don't know everything about it.

In truth we breed more and more snakes together for a very selfish goal- prettieeees. Now don't get me wrong, I like many of them too.

But the ones who will end up potentially paying the price would not be us but the animals themselves. I think that cross breeding in a way is extremely selfish, and that in many cases we do not yet have a full comprehension of what we are doing.

It has happened before in endless scenarios- be it the over-use of antibiotics before we knew that bacteria will become immune to it if we use it for no reason. The use of steroids from that are produced in our kidney's cortex as a pain killer and "general ailment" fixer- only to then find out that it causes deafness when being used needlessly. Or the transport of animals from one continent to the next- and by so doing introducing ecological hazards on a tremendous scale.
This very well may be another such thing.

Take dogs for instance, it is well known that pure breeds suffer from kinks. We designed them to be smaller/stockier with short legs- and so cursed them with knee and hind legs issues. We created the Germen sheperds for our own use and cursed them with a major tendency for hip problems.

We may end up doing the same here, and in this case it won't be us who take the fall.
 
Kokopelli said:
I would like to throw a thought into the wind here.

I don't mind hybrids physically speaking, yes it does bother me that they create a certain confusion and uncertainty when buying corns but some are really pretty.

My issue is more of an ethical one. Nature to this date has proved that a certain line of animals is the most fitting to survive. We as human beings, live only so long a time and yet we presume to think we know better. We don't really understand many of the implications to our actions. Nature is a setting that has existed millenniums before we came about, it set about rules and magnitude which we cannot duplicate due to their scale and the fact that we still don't know everything about it.

In truth we breed more and more snakes together for a very selfish goal- prettieeees. Now don't get me wrong, I like many of them too.

But the ones who will end up potentially paying the price would not be us but the animals themselves. I think that cross breeding in a way is extremely selfish, and that in many cases we do not yet have a full comprehension of what we are doing.

It has happened before in endless scenarios- be it the over-use of antibiotics before we knew that bacteria will become immune to it if we use it for no reason. The use of steroids from that are produced in our kidney's cortex as a pain killer and "general ailment" fixer- only to then find out that it causes deafness when being used needlessly. Or the transport of animals from one continent to the next- and by so doing introducing ecological hazards on a tremendous scale.
This very well may be another such thing.

Take dogs for instance, it is well known that pure breeds suffer from kinks. We designed them to be smaller/stockier with short legs- and so cursed them with knee and hind legs issues. We created the Germen sheperds for our own use and cursed them with a major tendency for hip problems.

We may end up doing the same here, and in this case it won't be us who take the fall.
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I think as well. I have no issues with hybrids as a pet. The only reason I'd ever think that hybridization is a bad thing is if it screwed up our world's ecology in some way, or made some terrible issue with that line of snakes' health.
 
You make some good points, Kokopelli, especially concerning dogs. As a certified veterinary technician practicing for over 25 years, I've seen more inherited problems in dogs and cats than most. A wonderful example is the English Bulldog. It has been "refined" by humans to such a degree that they are literally incapable of reproducing on their own without human intervention via artificial insemination to Caesarian sections. Humans have been manipulating domesticated animals for thousands of years.

However, that is not the case (yet) with the various snake species kept in captivity. Humans have only been manipulating these creatures for somewhere around 50-75 years (and that's just a guess on my part). The species used to create the current hybrids are known to reproduce in the wild on their own without our intervention. And even when we do make a cross that wouldn't naturally occur (again, this is speculation as we really don't know this has never happened), such as with a corn X king, the resulting offspring are fertile and WILL reproduce with both parent species on their own. With all the other hybrids created by humans (mules, zonies, ligers, etc), it is extremely rare to find one that is actually fertile. If we're really doing something so horribly wrong, I would think that Nature would let us know. Personally, I'm much more concerned about what is being done in secret labs with the cloning technology than with crossing some snakes.

And I wouldn't be too eager to jump on the DNA testing bandwagon. We had a client send off for a DNA test on one of his purebred Dachshunds. The results came back that it was a Cocker Spaniel X Border Collie mix. But then again, considering the current popularity of the Labradoodles and the Pugles....
 
I seem to remember something like this from Kathy Love's first book, a gene which caused piebald - like markings in corns but where the specimens had some health problems. (Not the same as pied-sided AFAIK) It is going to be up to individual breeders who have new mutations crop up to monitor the animals and hopefully at least some would not continue the project if it was having a bad effect on the hatchlings. But you can't expect somebody who has a new mutation not to at least try to raise it and prove it out. And in some cases such as star gazers, it seems the animals that are affected with this are in high demand just to be able to eliminate the possibility of apparently healthy animals carrying the gene in hidden het form. That way the breeder can say their animals are known NOT to carry the bad gene. It's an ethical thing I guess. I know if I hatched a two headed snake, for instance, I would want to try to get it to eat, but if it didn't I wouldn't try to force feed it just so it would survive and be able to sell it.
 
To comment on the snakes originally posted, my first thought based on the snow and the ghost was that they had ultra in them, like the VMS "tequila sunrise". Apparently I was right.

As for messing up the natural order of the world by creating hybrid snakes, I like to think of Jeff Goldblum's character's stance in Jurassic Park. He was right, nature will find a way. We're just along for the ride.
 
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