Shipping box size heat tests

So now that peons like me can ship through Reptster.com, peons like me need to know the little details about shipping. Obviously, the biggest concern with shipping right now is keeping the animals cool. This is such a serious concern that some shippers choose not to ship during the heat of the summer. But I will be out of the country before the heat of the summer abates in my neck of the woods, so I decided to do some experimentation.

I ordered two boxes from Reptster: one 12x9x6, the other 15x11x7. I then set them up two different ways on consecutive evenings, put them outside on a shelf in the shade around 5:00pm, and measured the outdoor and in-box temperature in each box over the course of the night.

Night 1: I put one .5 lb frozen gel pack in the middle of the box, in the cardboard slot pictured, and placed the thermometer probes in the middle of the space on one side. packed with newspaper, taped the box shut as if shipping, and put them outside.

Night 2: I put one .5 lb frozen gel pack on the inside of each end of the box (2 total), placed the thermometer probe in the middle of each box, etc.

I summarized the results of each night's data collection on the graph pictured.

Notes: 1) The three thermometers did not read equivalently. One of the probe thermometers read 3-4 degrees higher than the other two at 80 degrees F. I adjusted all of the temperature readings from that thermometer down by 3 degrees, but of course that assumes that thermometer is off by the same amount across a range of temperatures. However, I switched thermometers in the boxes across the two nights, and the results with the 3 degree adjustment are remarkably similar, so I think it's a good assumption even though I didn't ACTUALLY test it. 2) I switched the locations of the two boxes on the second night so that the small box was farthest from the house. So each box was tested in each location, albiet with different numbers of ice packs in each location. 3) Boxes start out at around 82-84 degrees in my study before introduction of gel packs.

The results surprised me! I thought the larger box would be more resistant to heating, but it appears that in these temperatures, the boxes are not really very resistant to heating (they come from Reptster lined with 1/2" styrofoam), and that the critical factor is how well the boxes can be cooled by the gel packs to counteract that heating. The smaller box can obviously be cooled more than the larger box by an equivalent number of gel packs. I guess if I were shipping TO Phoenix, I would need to get some thicker styrofoam. The gel packs keep the box cool through the hot evening, but they are obviously at ambient box-temperature by 9 am the next day when things are heating up again, and the boxes have nothing more to keep them cool but their insulation.

I don't know why that picture looks like that. Let's try again.

I have absolutely nothing to add here, never shipped. But that's good information!

Thanks, Tom. I think this little experiment has mainly taught me that when I want to ship, I will want to actually test out the shipping conditions before I pack the snakes in the box. In the winter, with heat packs, it might cost a couple of bucks to run such a test, since those aren't reusable, but that's a lot better than sending off snakes when you don't REALLY know what it's going to be like for them in that box and being wrong with your a priori assumptions!

Have you done tests with air holes? I wonder where the balance is between allowing air for the animal to breathe and keeping cold/hot air out.

We've posted (generally - not specific details like you just did) about our tests like this from when we first started shipping snakes a little over 12 years ago or so. I've said it for years: cool packs are USELESS the following day! I've said that for over a decade. I still use them because (1) they help in the evenings when the packages are first dropped off at FedEx and (2) customers expect to see them. On the first point, it's still over 90F at 5:00pm in my area so the cool packs DO help when I drop them off in case the boxes get put in the heat accidentally. This is very unlikely to happen, but I like being extra safe JUST in case. For the latter reason, it is cheaper to put a cool pack in the box than explain to some novice keeper that has never even shipped a snake WHY the cool pack is pointless. If you don't put one, they'll ignore your experience and bad mouth you to other novices too darn often. In other words, it is just easier putting the cold pack than arguing about it with each and every buyer. I've even put a cold pack "for looks" without freezing it under special situations when I knew it was safer to not use one....lol.

If the package arrives by 10:30 the next day, they are almost always fine. (Knock on wood!) If the package is late for some reason, they will be OK or they won't, but the cold pack has NOTHING to do with that fact at that time. At best, it is just more mass to slightly change the temperature curve.....lol.

We used to use 1/2" insulation in the spring and fall, but the really cold and hot times NEED the 3/4 insulation for me to feel good about this. Insulation only slows down temperature changes - it doesn't prevent them - and thicker insulation slows it down more than thinner stuff. Now, we only buy the 3/4" insulated boxes. It's so much better.

On air holes, it's just better to not use them. This might change for a bunch of large snakes, but they are NOT needed for shipping a couple of hatchling cornsnakes. Just do NOT use them, and you avoid all the unnecessary concerns about "hot air getting into the package......if they are even valid concerns at all. No need, so don't use them!

On heat packs, these do work if you use the 40 or 60 hour ones. Adjust the length of the heat pack for the maximum temp that you need during shipping. Shorter ones get hotter. Anyway, the problem with heat packs is that they need a LOT of air to get warm. Inside of boxes, they don't work THAT well. If you poke a lot of holes, they'll work better, but they won't be able to warm the box at all. It results in a negative response since the boxes seem to stay cooler with air holes than without whenever a heat pack is used. PLUS, those heat packs use liquid water. If the heat packs every get to freezing, they stop working. If the box is placed in a "too cold" environment, the heat pack won't do a darn thing. This is almost never a real concern for us, though. Unlike cold packs, heat packs DO seem to help the following day. They don't keep it warm and toasty, but who cares? The snake is safer a little cool than a little too warm, and you just want to get the snake there under warm enough conditions to be healthy and thrive for the new owner. Heat packs sure seem to help with that! It isn't like you want the box warm enough for the snake to digest a meal or anything......lol. Again, you probably want it warmer for boas, but this isn't THAT big of a concern with cornsnakes.....and the heat packs DO seem to help if the correct size is used and the balance between airflow and heat production is correct.

KJ

Thanks for your detailed advice, KJUN. That's exactly the kind I'd like to see in this thread. Perhaps some of the more experienced shippers can make a sticky thread about shipping with just that sort of information.

No, Bram. I didn't use any airholes. I knew I wouldn't be using them because I didn't want to let hot air into the box.

"...I still use them because (1) they help in the evenings when the packages are first dropped off at FedEx and (2) customers expect to see them...."

EXACTLY! I usually drop off just before closing, between 7 - 8 p.m. It can still be close to 90F at times, but the sun is mostly down and a cold pack is not really needed by then. But a customer expects to see it, so I often provide it anyway.

What's worse is that many customers expect a heat pack in weather that I consider perfect for shipping corns (50s - 70 or so). The cold pack will not jeopardize the snake, but the unneeded heat definitely could, so they just don't always get a heat pack when they want it, lol!

I have learned from experience to discuss shipping techniques with people who are SENDING me something too. I rarely get animals shipped here (usually meet with people at shows), but when I do, I ALWAYS pick up at the local FedEx office. I have had people want to use a heat pack to ship corns here when it was chilly (but not cold) at their location, and was expected to be in the mid 80s here the next day! So don't assume anything - always pack corns so they will be a little too cool, rather than too warm.

An easy and inexpensive aid to insulation is air bubble wrap. I have boxes that have the half inch foam, so if the weather is extremely hot or cold, I sometimes line the inside of the box with bubble wrap for added insulation and also shock protection. I use lots of crumpled newspaper to provide a nice air pocket and more shock protection.

When should one use airholes? I'm not just going to be shipping hatchlings this summer, but all of my adults are finding new permanent or temporary homes as well. I wasn't planning to use airholes for packages of two adults. I'm using coldpacks because it will be well above 90 for the entire Phoenix portion of their trip, and I didn't want to use an airhole because it will be well above 90 for the entire Phoenix portion of their trip! I can't drop off later than 5:15, and I have no idea how long they'll be here before they get on a plane. Actually, where they're going, they could even be driven and get there overnight.

Kind of OT. I ordered silkworms last week from a different company because my usual supplier was out. Normally they are sent Priority Mail (two days) with a cold pack. They are in deli cups, with crumpled newspaper and food in the cup. They have always been fine, going from 90F Florida to 90F Florida. So I figured the new worms would be fine from 90F California to 90F Florida, two day Fed Ex. (I never get them till I get home, 5PM or so). So the new worms arrive, and are in a box, no cold pack as I had asked, but not packed at all- just loose in a hot cardboard box! The company says the bigger worms handle heat better when not insulated. Apparently not- 90% were DOA, and nearly all of the survivors died shortly after. Luckily I have lots of volunteers to eat dead worms, although not the animal they were intended to feed for the next several weeks...

Bummer! Are they sending you a new shipment Nanci?

No- I voided a live arrival guarantee by not being there to accept them- which I knew, but I thought they'd be fine, because the worms from the other company were always fine, even if they were delayed an extra day, making them three days! Plus, I asked for a cold pack (which wouldn't have helped, with them all loose in the box with no insulation, but who'd have thought that was even a possibility?). I feel badly they had to die like that, but I guess they would have died at my house anyway, being food.

I'm not surprised by the larger box not staying as cool as the smaller box, but I am a little surprised that you really didn't get much difference with 2 ice packs versus only one. But then, you had things placed differently between 1 ice pack vs. 2 ice packs. The thickness of insulation used is a factor, as well as the location and number of the ice packs and how and with what the rest of the package is packed. Your initial box temps are also a bit higher than I would expect, at least for a box I would be packing. I would expect the inside of my box to be at least room temp or cooler (if I have the ice packs inside them for awhile before final placement of the snake and taping up). Also, for temps close to 110 F, I would use alot more than 1-2 small ice packs.

Susan said:

Your initial box temps are also a bit higher than I would expect, at least for a box I would be packing. I would expect the inside of my box to be at least room temp or cooler (if I have the ice packs inside them for awhile before final placement of the snake and taping up). Also, for temps close to 110 F, I would use alot more than 1-2 small ice packs.

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My initial box temps ARE at room temp. At that time of the day at this time of the year, the study is at 84 minimum. I didn't let them sit with ice packs in them. I dropped the ice packs in at the last minute with the newspaper already packed in, taped up the boxes, and put them outside.

Also, using two ice packs instead of one did prevent an initial heat-up of the small box when the external temperatures were at their highest, whereas one ice pack couldn't as effectively combat the very high initial external temps. Basically, even two ice packs were totally insufficient for cooling the larger box, so given that finding, I'm not surprised not to see a real difference there.

But thanks for the tip. I'll use more ice packs.

kathylove said:

"...I still use them because (1) they help in the evenings when the packages are first dropped off at FedEx and (2) customers expect to see them...."

EXACTLY! I usually drop off just before closing, between 7 - 8 p.m. It can still be close to 90F at times, but the sun is mostly down and a cold pack is not really needed by then. But a customer expects to see it, so I often provide it anyway.

What's worse is that many customers expect a heat pack in weather that I consider perfect for shipping corns (50s - 70 or so). The cold pack will not jeopardize the snake, but the unneeded heat definitely could, so they just don't always get a heat pack when they want it, lol!

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Aren't those comments the truth. I guess the customers DO run things!

For what it is worth....I rarely use cool packs and have not had a problem. I drop off at a air conditioned facility at closing which drives them directly to the airport and then on to the distribution center.

All that being said, however, I don't like shipping when it is over 90 so I'll usually wait for a cloudy/rainy day to do my shipping. Like Kathy said...good idea to confirm with the customer.

kathylove said:

"...I still use them because (1) they help in the evenings when the packages are first dropped off at FedEx and (2) customers expect to see them...."
I use lots of crumpled newspaper to provide a nice air pocket and more shock protection.

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I am surprised you guys have to use stuff that is unnessessary just becasue of us buyers. I would always defer to the sellar knowing how to pack the animal in the best way possible. And I would not expect the sellar to take chances by shipping in poor weather conditions...but I suppose we are now in a immediate gratification society and when someone orders their snake they really wanted it yesterday.

All that said...this is very helpful to those of us who travel with our animals for a variety of reasons...so thank you

And I am glad Kathy Love mentioned the newpaper...gardeners use it as an inexpensive layer of mulch /insulatorand weed blocker...

What about that foil lined insulation? We occasioanlly have had groceries delivered in the past and the boxes have the silver foil insulation wrapped around the perishables.

desertanimal said:

My initial box temps ARE at room temp. At that time of the day at this time of the year, the study is at 84 minimum.

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Good Grief! How can you stand it? Hubby is keeping the house at higher temps this year to keep the electric bill lower (and it's not making that much of a difference), but at 78-79F, I'm basically miserable, especially with the hot flashes. At 84F, I would be homicidal!

If I didn't ship on days that were above 90F here, I would hardly ever ship between late May and mid Oct., lol! But by shipping just before closing, I pretty much avoid temps of 90F or above on my end. And if all goes as expected, and people pick up their shipment in the morning by 10 or 11, or it goes to a business and arrives by 10:30, then really hot temps are almost always avoided. Of course, things can go wrong, delays can happen, etc. But it is rare, and VERY rare if people are willing to go and pick up at the local FedEx office. The customers who INSIST on a residential delivery (which we are not really supposed to do, but FedEx has not enforced) are the ones most likely to experience delays or problems, although delays are still rare, even for home delivery.

Customers: if you really want to increase your chance of safe and timely delivery, either go pick it up at the local FedEx office, or at least have it delivered to a business that already gets lots of morning FedEx deliveries and the driver is already familiar with that location.

kathylove said:

Customers: if you really want to increase your chance of safe and timely delivery, either go pick it up at the local FedEx office, or at least have it delivered to a business that already gets lots of morning FedEx deliveries and the driver is already familiar with that location.

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That's the truth. I wish our industry standard was live arrival to business addresses only. It seems that as fuel costs rise, FedEx is guaranteeing morning delivery to fewer and fewer residential addresses. The "special routes" caused by those deliveries just cost too much now, I guess.

KJ

KJUN said:

That's the truth. I wish our industry standard was live arrival to business addresses only. It seems that as fuel costs rise, FedEx is guaranteeing morning delivery to fewer and fewer residential addresses. The "special routes" caused by those deliveries just cost too much now, I guess.

KJ

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How would that work for those of us who work from home?
Or who have businesses too far from home to get a live animal at 9 in the morning but we won't get home until near 7 pm that evening?
Could you just do the pick up at the FedEx office then?