Pied is it recessive? WYNTK

[Tom Tuttle]

There are a few reasons I started this thread. I started this as a new thread instead of replying to some existing ones. This way it can't be construed as a personal attack on anybody specific that is not its intent.I'm certain it's going to ruffle some feathers.The foremost reason is to give the public as much information in one post. This may help anybody make an informed decision before purchasing.

As some of you may know I produced some hypo pieds this year. I had posted some for sale and after some discussions with some other breeders I pulled my ads. Now why would I do this?:shrugs:There are many reasons.
One problem is this: I could understand selling a visual specimen, but how can I sell any of the others as hets when the gene hasn't been proven recessive? Well you can't

This also applies to the pieds currently being marketed & from what I've been told at least 20 have been sold at or in excess of $1000 ea. Now given our current economic situation that is quite a marketing feat!

Now back to the topic: Is Pied recessive?

The answer is plain & simple the pied gene hasn't been proven to be recessive yet. Until it is out crossed & recovered in a morph that doesn't include the diffused gene it will remain unproven. IMHO If it is truly a recessive gene it can't be morph specific. I've been informed by another party that Rob Stevens may be doing such a breeding this season. I really hope it proves to be recessive!

That would be monumental in the corn snake community, imagine all the possibilities! Pied Lavender Sunkissed ( a triple homo).:dancer:

But if doesn't prove out how are the people who so heavily invested going to feel. Do you think anybody will offer a refund?:nope:

 

[HanneysCorn]

After this discussion arose in the Insiders Forum, I'm happy to see it brought to light here where we all have the opportunity to ask questions and learn more about this truly impressive phenotypic look. There really is nothing more stunning to me than that stark red on white look that truly makes you look twice. I did take the time as was suggested to review several threads but re-reading those did make my head spin a little.

I found 3 discussions in this sub-forum made since 2005. There were lots of pics, but discussions to me have some meat on the bone so to speak.

From this thread, http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68494&highlight=pied+sided+bloodred in post #6, Terri (Crackerhead) wrote the following...

I know I emailed you this info but I figured everyone should be aware as well so there is no confusion. The Bloodred pied sided that is being referred to in the ad is probably a McDonald line. They have been shown to not breed true. In other words, if you breed two phenotypical McDonald pied sideds you might or might not get offspring that are pied sided. In Don Soderbergs line P/S parents yield P/S offspring. The two lines are also incompatible with one another. If you are looking for nice looking bloodred that have some white on their sides, then great. But if you are looking for breeding stock that will produce P/S, stick to Soderberg's lines. I own both lines. The eggs that are in the incubator from the McDonald line will not be sold as P/S, but rather as nice looking bloodreds, no more, no less.
Terri

The bolding is mine, but this would lead me to believe there is more reliability in reproducing pied sides if the Soderberg line of pied sideds are bred.

In the following thread a discussion about the genetics of white sided in comparison to pied sided Don Soderberg explains the following in post #19...

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62475&highlight=pied+sided+bloodred

This is why I caution folks to call these white-sided until we discover if it's polygenic or recessive AND if it is linked only to the darker bloodred compounds. I've seen smattering of white on the sides of anery bloods and pewters for many years. Only recently am I seeing examples that have more and more of it; some to the point of APPEARING white-sided. Are they mimics of the gene or the same recessive mutation seen in many other serpent species?

Although this thread is in reference to 'white sided' and although there is no mention of pied sided at all and whether Mendelian genetics is involved but I included this as genetics was mentioned pertaining to the lack or absence of melanin in bloodreds and that it has been seen in other species. Some confusion was even occuring then about what is white sided and what is actually pied sided.

This is actually the most important thread of all. Started in July 2005, it was my, probably most folks, introduction to this beautiful cultivar. Don originated the post.

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23120&highlight=pied+sided+bloodred

I do however find the following quotes interesting.

From Don's post #1...

I understand that he got the male we used to make these from Brad McDonald.

From Don's post #13...

I've been breeding the dam of my line to other bloods for many years and all the babies are classics. Nothing at all unusual from breeding her to several bloodred males over the years. Well, 'till now, that is.

From post #17 by Don...

The jury's still out on the heritable mechanism, but I'm reasonably sure it's recessive from the progeny ratio.

From Don's post #50...

Three years ago before the breeding season, Walter Smith wrote to ask if I have any adult female bloodred corns that would complement his adult male that had a considerable amount of white on it. I had one with "some" white on the sides, ventral-laterally. Sent her to Louisiana and after the breeding season, he returned her with half the babies. Only one of the babies he sent back had traces of white on the sides. I estimate a total of only 20 scales of white. Hence, the indication was that the trait was either not recessive OR that only one of the parents had the gene IF it indeed was a recessive trait. By not seeing the amount of white I'm seeing in the F2s, I was worried it was not recessively inherited.

(The bolding is mine.)

And then he goes on further to state in the same post #50...

As stated before, I got alot of the pied sided corns from those three pairings. The average ratio was just over 1/3 of each litter representing the target phenotype. From these results, I think it's safe to say we're dealing with a recessive trait.

(Again the bolding is mine.)

Now the final post I found was this one

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40997

I find post #26 by Danny (dwyn127) to be an interesting one.

I spent alot of time talking to Ward in Daytona two weeks ago about his bloodreds, they were quite stunning. I guess testing has proven them to be non-compatable with the one's Don and Rob are working with. Not sure I understood everything we discussed but then again, it sounds like more testing and info needs to be gathered since the pied side is still so new.

Now I'm left with the question. If the original pied sides were from Walter's McDonald lines bred to Don's lines and produced pied sided, why are Terri's statements above saying Don's lines will produce with reliability pied sides, but the McDonald line won't. Now is this a third line, we are taking about here that Ward has? A non Soderberg, non McDonald line?

Now Terri is not the only one making this statement. From this thread...

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66958

In post #8, KJUN says....

It looks like it, but looks alone can't tell you if it is an inheritable form (like Don Soderberg's line). White in bloods isn't THAT new. What is new is the amount of white (and yours has a lot) and the fact that Don is "reliably" reproducing them. No other line does that, and you MAY have one of those lines.

In post #11, same thread, Don says...

On a side-note, it's not news to most bloodred lovers that white has been on the sides of some regular bloods for many years. I saw traces of white on the sides of ones I had back in the mid 1990s and heard of many. Most of those did not pass that trait onto their progeny or grand progeny.

In post #12, Rob says...

Don and KJ have pretty much summed it up.We have seen a couple of lines out there that don't seem to breed true.
These have been around for a while.
The pair of P/S's that i got from Don produced all P/S babies.

Don does state, "I think it's safe to say we're dealing with a recessive trait." I have found no further posts by Don since April/08 stating it definitely is Mendelian, but others are saying it is inheritable and reproducible reliably.

So now I'm left with a few questions of my own.

If the patriarch of this pied sided line was a McDonald line, and the matriarch was a Soderberg line, why are we differentiating that Soderberg lines breed true, but McDonald lines don't...both were involved genetically to begin with.

If it has not been proven genetic and you pulled your ads because you could not in all honesty claim 'hets for pied sided', then can someone please explain why others are selling these so called hets. :shrugs: To me it seems that until such time as someone is going to publicly state...THIS IS a recessive trait and follows the Mendelian probabilities of genetic inheritance...it's all guess work and optimism. There seems to me to still be a cloud of mystery surrounding the inheritance factor. Doesn't it have to be proved reliable over a few generations to make the claim, 'Yes, this is a recessive gene and has been proven so'. Doesn't it need to be outcrossed and then recaptured? Has this gene even been isolated long enough for this to have been done.

I'm not trying to denigrate, belittle, or make less of this great project whatsoever. I think it's wonderful, but in the hype are many forgetting that the answers are not 'absolute' and are simply caught in awe of the phenotypic look to it all without realizing nothing is guaranteed at this stage. That would be a terrible disappointment for sure if 'buying hets' didn't pan out or investing in homos for other projects proved in the long term to not come out with the expected results.

I hope we get the answers soon. I'd love to see the potential this gene has to offer used in other morphs, especially the anery and hypo groups. Wouldn't that be awesome...almost as good as what we are seeing now just with the bloodreds.

Ruth

 

[Austin M]

First off, let me state what I know as fact. I bought a pied-sided male from Don S. in 06. Don S. informed me that the genetics were not proven! We went back and forth on possable scenarios. Even though I did guess work he was always upfront that the pied-sided gene was still unproven! So in fact I purchased the snake knowing the genetics were unproven. Don made it clear to me! I was very willing to purchase this phenotype that was unproven because Don was up front and honest about the unknown genetics and I wanted to be part of the "let's figure it out" group. If Don's pied-sided gene became proven I was ahead of the game. If it wasn't I had some of the most killer bloodred stock! Either way I didn't loose in my eyes.

Second off, let me state my "heard it through the grape vine" facts. Rob Stevens tested a pied-sided phenotype from the McDonald line to a pied-sided phenotype from the Soderbergd line and got ZERO pied-sided's. Rob did a pied-sided Soderbergd X Soderbergd and got 100% pied-sided. Rob did pied-sided McDonald X Mcdonald and got unpredictable results. I have no "works sited" for these facts so take them as you will. Sodergergd pied-sided X normal then recover pied-sided gene from F2 is still UNKNOWN. Maybe rob can fill in the gaps here.

Third off, since 07 I've seen a lot of pied-sided corns for sale that are of unknown origins and unknown genetics. I scan tons of corn sites and see it frequently. Pied-sided blood for sale. Most of them are being sold as true genetics. Even though the breeders don't know the origins of their bloodlines and have not tested them to prove them out as genetic. If it is unproven it should be sold as such. In some of these cases I think "killer" bloodreds are being pawned off as being a simple recessive pied-sided gene.

What does WYNTK mean?

 

[Susan]

WYNTK = What You Need To Know...I think.

As for the whole pied-sided issue, I'll let other breeders figure it out and simply wait for the "official" notification. There are other genes I can play with in the meantime.

 

[torsten]

As for the whole pied-sided issue, I'll let other breeders figure it out and simply wait for the "official" notification. There are other genes I can play with in the meantime.

Thats just cheating


Has anyone bred a visual SMR Pied blood with a normal blood and then bred those offspring either to themselves or back to the visual Pied? what were the results?

thanks

 

[HanneysCorn]

Rob Stevens tested a pied-sided phenotype from the McDonald line to a pied-sided phenotype from the Soderbergd line and got ZERO pied-sided's. Rob did a pied-sided Soderbergd X Soderbergd and got 100% pied-sided. Rob did pied-sided McDonald X Mcdonald and got unpredictable results. I have no "works sited" for these facts so take them as you will. Sodergergd pied-sided X normal then recover pied-sided gene from F2 is still UNKNOWN. Maybe rob can fill in the gaps here.

Third off, since 07 I've seen a lot of pied-sided corns for sale that are of unknown origins and unknown genetics. I scan tons of corn sites and see it frequently. Pied-sided blood for sale. Most of them are being sold as true genetics. Even though the breeders don't know the origins of their bloodlines and have not tested them to prove them out as genetic. If it is unproven it should be sold as such. In some of these cases I think "killer" bloodreds are being pawned off as being a simple recessive pied-sided gene.

I am very much reminded of the inheritance here of Aztecs/Zig Zags...gene combinations lined up in just the perfect way to produce the perfect phenotypic Aztec markings. Not a single gene but many and depending upon the line up so to speak, one can produce killer offspring or offspring that just show a few abherant patternings. The more Aztec that is in the sire and dam, the more you increase your chances for that patterning to carry over into the offspring but then I've seen cases, actually hatched a beautiful aztec myself that had parents that showed no signs of any abherrant patterning whatsover and had no Lavender in the makeup at all. It was a Crimson to Miami pairing.

The Sunkisseds also present these questions to arise. I've seen Sunkissed with head patterns that are awesome, and there are Sunkisseds with very usual head patterns associated with non-Sunkisseds. The saddle elongation can be there or sometimes it isn't. All have inherited the colour gene, but didn't recapture the patterning in full when outcrossed. Again the total 'look' isn't there but the colour is. That's the reason those who are working with Sunkisseds also have questions to find answers too.

Some patterning genes can hold such mystery. Perhaps they just don't follow the same rules as the colour genes always. Makes trying to solve the mystery that much harder and more intriguing to those who love working in genetics. Keeps us continually searching to find the reasons and answers.

Ruth

 

[KJUN]

> Until it is out crossed & recovered in a morph that doesn't include the diffused gene it will remain unproven.

That is an incorrect statement. It can still be a simple recessive trait and be closely linked to the the main bloodred gene, it can be a modifier to the bloodred gene (hence only appears in a homozygous bloodred), or.... There ARE other genetically viable options - everything is NOT as simple as you say it must be. PLUS, it can still be a het if proven to be codominant or incompletely dominant with the bloodred allele. If fact, I would not be surprised if we are dealing with a weakly codominant allele here on the bloodred locus. (Obviously, bloodred is more complex than just being a simple recessive allele, but I'm handling it in this discussion as just a recessive single point mutation since that simplification works and bloodred is not the point of this discussion.)

Important note: I've been working with this morph for a few years, and I am STILL reluctant to say how it is inherited "as a fact." There is enough thorns that I will be reluctant to say how it is inherited likely for a few more years due to some of the troubling data I have seen. Plus, I'm not sure all pied-sideds ARE pied-sided even if the gene is found to be recessive or something (more on this below). The problem is that, for Don's line, he started with one believed to be a carrier for the white-sided gene and one with white that isn't believed to be a carrier. The founding stock, which is not believed to be a pied-sided, may have given white to the offspring in addition to the pied-sided gene (if it really does exist). Grrrrrr!

For example, take hypo cornsnakes and Rosy ratsnakes. When hypo cornsnakes first came out (and for years afterwards), many people confusingly thought their Rosy ratsnakes were hypos. Duh! Phenotypes are similar and can be confused by people that don't know the difference.....especially when they want them to be hypos because they are more valuable. Lavenders and ruby-eyed ghosts would be another example. I believe these analogies are valid here. I believe we have pied-sided bloods (however it is inherited - Mendelian or not!) and bloods with white that are easily mistaken as pied-sideds. In other words, (as with hypos) looks aren't as important as genetics. If it LOOKS like a pied-sided, that doesn't MAKE it a pied-sided. I truly believe this is what is going on. If someone randomly produces a blood that LOOKS as if it was a pied-sided, I'd be very reluctant in their shoes to call it a pied-sided unless I/they could trace it back to the proven line. For the record, some people assume "proven" means simple recessive, and that isn't the case. In this case, it just means it can be reliable (to a large extent) reproduced. That's a mistake too many hobbyists make, but it is an easy one to clear up.

ANYWAY, that leaves us with (in essence) 3 lineages: Don's, Brad's, and others. Don's - although their is some confounding results - generally can be reproduced when bred together. Quality is rather unpredictable right now, though. I agree that Don's line MAY fiddle out to nothing as it is outcrossed further. I hope not, but I'm not a soothsayer. Regardless (and this is something many of the big breeders caught on early) of the pied-sided "gene," this lineage is some of the best bloodreds out there. Even if pied-sided would disappear, mine are worth to me what I paid for them JUST for the value of a bloodred that looks THIS good. ALL new bloodred projects here will get started with those bloodreds because they are so much better looking than any others I've ever owned. That is also another topic, though......lol.

Brad's has produced some great animals, but the pattern and placement of white is very different. (That is another post, though, but the differences are obvious enough that everyone has likely already noticed them.) Brad's line is beautiful, but it has been much harder to reliably reproduce - especially, unlike Don's, outside of anerythristics! Brad's line may just be the result of breeding bloodreds to far into "perfection" that we've begun to lose color. Kind of a good thing taken too far to one extreme. Impressively done, and I appreciate the work that went into this line. BTW, I know of a couple instances where Brad's was outcrossed (and not really recovered or even not recovered at all) and crossed into Don's line (these results indicate complete incompatability).

Other lines are the ones that seem to pop up out of surprise and the owners don't know if they are related to Brad's, Don's, or some other lineage.....or if it is new altogether. These need to be tested before, I believe, anyone can say anything. PLUS, and people forget/ignore this, bloods with white have been around for a long, long time. Until more recently, it hasn't been reproducible or, humorously, desirable.

> But if doesn't prove out how are the people who so heavily invested going to feel. Do you think anybody will offer a refund?:nope:


No, but they won't ask for MORE MONEY if it turns out to be better than expected, either....will they? LOL.

Seriously, anyone selling the babies as definite hets ARE misleading their customers and a refund is between them and the seller. Anyone selling the normals as offspring from a pied-sided or visual pied-sided may or may not depending on what they buyer is told. Neither one of us knows what ANY seller is telling all of his customers in private, so I don't have thoughts about any of them being "bad" guys.

CONCLUSION: I agree that it isn't proven as a recessive gene yet, but it may turn out to be a recessive linked to bloodred. A codominant-like mode of inheritance can not be ruled out yet. More data is needed. Some lines have been proven to be somewhat reliably reproducible, but some lines have not. That about sums it up.

KJ

 

[Tom Tuttle]

First off, let me state what I know as fact. I bought a pied-sided male from Don S. in 06. Don S. informed me that the genetics were not proven! We went back and forth on possable scenarios. Even though I did guess work he was always upfront that the pied-sided gene was still unproven! So in fact I purchased the snake knowing the genetics were unproven. Don made it clear to me! I was very willing to purchase this phenotype that was unproven because Don was up front and honest about the unknown genetics and I wanted to be part of the "let's figure it out" group. If Don's pied-sided gene became proven I was ahead of the game. If it wasn't I had some of the most killer bloodred stock! Either way I didn't loose in my eyes.

Second off, let me state my "heard it through the grape vine" facts. Rob Stevens tested a pied-sided phenotype from the McDonald line to a pied-sided phenotype from the Soderbergd line and got ZERO pied-sided's. Rob did a pied-sided Soderbergd X Soderbergd and got 100% pied-sided. Rob did pied-sided McDonald X Mcdonald and got unpredictable results. I have no "works sited" for these facts so take them as you will. Sodergergd pied-sided X normal then recover pied-sided gene from F2 is still UNKNOWN. Maybe rob can fill in the gaps here.

Third off, since 07 I've seen a lot of pied-sided corns for sale that are of unknown origins and unknown genetics. I scan tons of corn sites and see it frequently. Pied-sided blood for sale. Most of them are being sold as true genetics. Even though the breeders don't know the origins of their bloodlines and have not tested them to prove them out as genetic. If it is unproven it should be sold as such. In some of these cases I think "killer" bloodreds are being pawned off as being a simple recessive pied-sided gene.

What does WYNTK mean?

What you need to know. I commend Don on being up front with you. That is what I would expect from Don.

Now knowing that the patriarch of this pied sided line was a McDonald line, and the matriarch was a Soderberg line how can Rob be getting the results in you claim as facts in "Heard it through the grapevine"?
We need the facts from Rob not second hand.

 

[Tom Tuttle]

> Until it is out crossed & recovered in a morph that doesn't include the diffused gene it will remain unproven.

That is an incorrect statement. It can still be a simple recessive trait and be closely linked to the the main bloodred gene, it can be a modifier to the bloodred gene (hence only appears in a homozygous bloodred),

KJ

I disagree there is a difference between a simple recessive gene & a gene modifier.

 

[KJUN]

A gene modifier can be a recessive trait. If pied-sided is a modifier to the blood gene that is inherited as a recessive allele, then it is recessive. ...or it can be a linked gene that is STILL simple recessive. That is an alternative hypothesis to the modifier one. Either one will give you pied-sideds that can't be uncoupled (assuming tight linkage) from the blood look.

 

[toyah]

Piedsided could well be epistatic to bloodred - so even if a line is proven recessive (or variably dominant or whatever), the piedsided will not express in a homozygous animal unless the snake is also homozygous bloodred.

 

[JFDery]

Piedsided could well be epistatic to bloodred - so even if a line is proven recessive (or variably dominant or whatever), the piedsided will not express in a homozygous animal unless the snake is also homozygous bloodred.

Perhaps I misunderstand your post, but I don’t think this is the correct use for epistasis. An epistatic gene is one that blocs the expression of a second gene in the same metabolic pathway (in this case pigment or pattern formation). Are you saying that pied-sided masks the expression of bloodred?

JF

 

[toyah]

Perhaps I misunderstand your post, but I don’t this is the correct use for epistasis. An epistatic gene is one that blocs the expression of a second gene in the same metabolic pathway (in this case pigment or pattern formation). Are you saying that pied-sided masks the expression of bloodred?

Yes, it is incorrect - that'll teach me to proofread It should read - piedsided could be epistatic to other mutations apart from bloodred.

 

[Blue Apple Herps]

Even if Rob (or Don or whoever is trying to separate it from the blood allele) isn't able to separate it doesn't necessarily mean that it couldn't still be simple recessive. If they do separate it, then that makes life easier.

But if they don't, I don't think that shows much. AS has been mentioned, it could be linked to the blood gene, in which case, it may take a recombination event to separate them out. It could also be a case of some bizarre epigenetics or some other factor at play.

 

[JFDery]

Thanks Toyah
I haven’t read all the threads about the P/S bloods (been away for a while) and I’ll probably be off on a few things related to the bloodred/diffused use, but here’s my point of view anyway and I welcome any corrections.

Personally, from what I’ve read, I would intuitively aim more toward gene linkage between the bloodred allele (is bloodred used in synonymy with “diffused” here?) and P/S than epistasis. But here to, tests have to be done before any conclusions can be made and testing for gene linkage is a much more demanding project with low productivity animals like corn snakes than mendelian cross-testing for non-linked genes. Then, as for the P/S trait being recessive or not, I think KJ made pretty important note: linked genes can also be recessive. I often read that people seem to interpret recessivity as a mode of inheritance; it’s actually a mode of expression. I think in most cases, when some (and I have no one in particular in mind here) say a mutation is not recessive, what is meant is probably “not independently assorted” or “not independent autosomal recessive”.

I’ll sure try to keep up with this thread, I think the P/S project is very interesting!

 

[mike17l]

This whole pied sided thing is causing way to much trouble, and I have a simple solution. Anyone with Soderberg pied sided bloodred corns, send them to me. I will pay shipping and do all the tedious feeding and test breeding for you. I know that I am taking on a giant task, but I will accept it as my lot in life. Again, send me all Soderberg line pied side bloods and I will take on the responsibility for you.

 

[KJUN]

That's too nice of you, Mike. Too nice. I think, since you are taking care of them, the rightful owner should pay for feed and cage spacing, too! Tell you what. Next time you are here, take the pied-sideds and the outcrossed project pied-sideds! Dig around in the freezer and grab a couple years worth of feed, too. How's that sound to you?

Nah, it is still too much to ask of you. I take it all back. It just wouldn't be fair to you! LOL.

KJ

 

[RobStevens]

We were fortunate enough to get a pair of Pied sided Bloodreds from Don in 2005.
We bred these snakes in 07 and also bred the male with several other snakes also.

Here are a few breeding results that we have gotten over the last couple of years.
07 SMR P/S x SMR P/S 12 eggs all pied sided(pics included)
07 SMR P/S X McDonald Anery 10 eggs no pied sided (pic of breeding included)
07 SMR P/S X Bloodred female 16 eggs no pied sided
08 SMR P/S X SMR P/S 20 eggs all pied sided babies.

Of the other breedings using the Pied sided male we got just what was expected.

Thanks Rob

 

[mike17l]

That's too nice of you, Mike. Too nice. I think, since you are taking care of them, the rightful owner should pay for feed and cage spacing, too! Tell you what. Next time you are here, take the pied-sideds and the outcrossed project pied-sideds! Dig around in the freezer and grab a couple years worth of feed, too. How's that sound to you?

Nah, it is still too much to ask of you. I take it all back. It just wouldn't be fair to you! LOL.

KJ

Im just a nice guy, its in my nature. I wont even charge you for feed after 3 years.

 

[RobStevens]

Couple more random P/S shots.