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Pied is it recessive? WYNTK

(3) it isn't recessive. I'm still wondering if we are dealing with a variable codominant where hets have little to medium levels of white and homozygous have medium to high levels of white - with lots of overlap between the two. It certainly is possible. Likely? I don't know enough to guess yet.
I know of SMR Pied X Pied pair where the offspring resulted in zero Pieds. All regular bloods. Even if one animal has the co-dominant trait and one hasn't but looks pied, at least half of the offspring should look a little pied since they would again be carrying the gene.
The whole situation looks quite strange to me and reminds me very very much of the Aztec/ZigZag thing going on. Time will tell. At least till all the guys that bought "hets" are happy or angry.
 
I'm pretty sure I've heard about the clutch you mean, but I've always wondered (1) what was the clutch size and (2) how PIED were the parental pied-sideds? If simple recessive and even on of the parents was just a look-alike, we could see zero pieds in the clutch (and even if one was a het, we might see zero in a small clutch).

Sooo, got images of the parents?
KJ
 
(3) it isn't recessive. I'm still wondering if we are dealing with a variable codominant where hets have little to medium levels of white and homozygous have medium to high levels of white - with lots of overlap between the two. It certainly is possible. Likely? I don't know enough to guess yet. Ones with a LITTLE white might be low expression hets

according to this principle even if only one parent was a P/S and was only Het P/S then ~half of the offspring should have had 'SOME' white.

but then you put this on the end of the previous quote:
OR regular bloods with a few white scales in this particular scenario.

so potentially they could both just be bloods with a few white scales... obviously this option is only viable if they both have few white scales.

for the above principle to be true if you bred a High white p/s to a plain bloodred with no p/s lineage you should get ALL p/s but just with fewer white scales, has this breeding been done?
 
Sooo, got images of the parents?
They should be floating around:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51znNxx5aCL._SS500_.jpg
Sadly, the other side of the animal is the one with the large white areas. If we speak about a simple recessive trait, you are right. But I think the clutch speaks against the co-dominant theory. On the other hand - Pied X normal Blood should most likely not result in Pieds and from what I've heard, this seems to be also the case in some pairings, not? Does not fit the recessive theory so well.
 
well that ruins that then. lol ;)

are you sure both are SMR P/S??? did you get them from him or is there the chance someone might have palmed you off with some other line of P/S? (accidentally or intentionally).
 
well that ruins that then. lol ;)
???
are you sure both are SMR P/S???
Don't worry.

I know there are quite a few possibilities left - the one that is still the most sound one is that a) there is a trait out there and b) that there is a line bred white thing that does like like the trait and came up at the same time. Co-dominance is a solution that would lead to a similar situation, but with the mentioned pairing, I highly doubt that co-dominance is the key.

The next question for me is - if there are two different things out there, how do all the people selling hets know what the actually have?
 
So to sum it up, we have two lines that throw pied sided phenotype. McDonald line and Soderbergd line. The testing of the two has been discussed in this thread. You be the judge or test them out yourself. lol

The third part of this is the pied sided looking blood that turns up in someones project. In my opinion it could be from one of the two lines, or it is something that has been going on with bloods for a long time. Perfect diffusion on the sides with some white scales close to the bottom. It's not new.

I'd like everyone to look at this thread and the question being asked.
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17125&highlight=pewter

Here's better pictures of these hatchlings. Again, look at the date!
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15364&highlight=pewter

I think there are some people getting bloodreds like Stephen's KILLER bloodreds in these pictures and automatically saying I got a recessive trait and are trying to sell them as such.

So, buyer be ware.
 
I'm speculating here but Walter and Rob's animal bloodlines are very intermingled. I'm relatively sure that the P/Ss he is selling and has bred into everything he owns, LOL, are the SM P/S. I'm sure he will correct me if I'm wrong.:bird:
Terri
 
01-13-2009 09:11 AM
MohrSnakes I believe Walter Smith had a clutch of pied X pied....does anyone know the line?


I believe they came from Don Soderbergd.
 
I know Walter will respond to this, but in case he's busy, the pair he has are on breeding loan from me.

Don

Thanks Don for the info.

That being said...doesn't that throw a wrench in the simple recessive gene theory? Walter bred pied X pied but did not get all pieds.
 
Not necessarily

Thanks Don for the info.

That being said...doesn't that throw a wrench in the simple recessive gene theory? Walter bred pied X pied but did not get all pieds.

White-sided snake mutants are all or nothing - an ON/OFF gene. Either you get the white-sided look or you do not; none of the variability we see in the p/s bloods. This year should be the year we put a period on the end of the p/s "genotype". Me, I believe it is so variable, it's possible to have p/s bloods that genetically forget to display the white. Call them cryptic carriers. Like an all white pinto horse that genetically forgot to have black on it. Naturally, they don’t forget, but it comically appears that way; when they are actually so variable, the degree of white is from zero to 100, regarding volume of expression.

Hence, it is my belief (at this time) that the p/s effect is one of such extreme variability that you can have examples from 0% white to ones with 40% white on the sides. As I said, this year, Rob and I should both have evidence pointing to the mode of inheritance. OR should I say, "the manifestation of the genotype? I'll be quoted for this, but what the heck. My theory today is that it may be possible that the white is an extreme variation of the patternless sides. Perhaps the gene is really about relocating or removing melanophores (melanin pigment cells) from the lateral pattern zone, conjunct with the ventor. Maybe one aspect of that also relocates or removes xanthophores (red/yellow pigment cells). I've said before about the McDonald anery bloods with white on the sides, that perhaps they are the extreme versions of the anery bloods. Yes, we see random and variable lateral white zones (almost always conjunct with the ventor--like my line of p/s bloods), but why? Physically, because of the lack of color cells. SO, why then do we see none of those white patches when we breed one of his p/s aneries to one of my p/s bloods? Recessive mutation, dominant-type mutation, polygenetics??? I personally do not know, and in the lack of Mendelian and/or other empirical evidence, we're forced to just love these gems. If we waited to invest in them after all their mysteries were unlocked, we'd be depriving ourselves of the pleasure of staring at them. I tell folks not to worry so much about their mode of inheritance, as their beauty (and consequent popularity in the hobby). As long as they're reproducible, who cares if they're polygenic products of artificial selection, or Mendelian-type mutations?

BTW, not semantically spanking, but in light of the quasi-controversial nature of this morph, I really like to avoid calling them pied or piebald or white-sided. This is only to protect those respective future mutations that may inherit clouded preconceptions over current p/s bloodred mysteries. Jeff, you KNOW I’m not picking on you, but since I rarely frequent forums, when I do, I like to get in some pearls of wisdom, and/or friendly semantic advertising. Lol. I know you don’t think this is a pied mutation, but for instance, if someone reading this thread thought the morph was “pied”, they’d wonder why we’re questioning the mode of inheritance, since everyone knows pie-bald mutantions in serpents are recessive, in heritable function. If the p/s bloods exhibited varying degrees of white from neck to tail, I’d do breeding trials to prove they’re actually white-sided mutants, but I avoided using any of the known mutant names when I picked one for this morph. We’ve all seen the catastrophes over misnaming morphs in corns. Let’s not go there again. lol.
 
Like I've said before; send me all the Soderberg line p/s bloods, and I will do all the necessary tests and post my findings in a couple years.


Thanks for getting on CS and posting the info Don.
 
Third off, since 07 I've seen a lot of pied-sided corns for sale that are of unknown origins and unknown genetics. I scan tons of corn sites and see it frequently. Pied-sided blood for sale. Most of them are being sold as true genetics. Even though the breeders don't know the origins of their bloodlines and have not tested them to prove them out as genetic. If it is unproven it should be sold as such. In some of these cases I think "killer" bloodreds are being pawned off as being a simple recessive pied-sided gene.
I am one of those breeders, due to my own ignorance. I still have a few on my site listed as
2008 Bloodreds
poss het pied, amel &
Unfortunately I have lost contact with my web-designer, but will change this as soon as possible! I also have a few old adds on Fauna and here that I will attempt to remove the pied heritability reference from as well. I would like to note that all of my prices were comparable to a "normal" bloodred/diffused, but again I will remove all reference to heritability in any current and future posts until the genetics have been worked out. It popped up in a clutch I had this year and almost every one of the hatchlings ( blood, not het bloods) in both clutches, she doubled, showed pied-like markings, some to a pretty high degree. I held back the best pair, showing the most pied-ness The sire was a bloodred I purchased from a Miguel/Mike Viego of Florida( has not returned emails asking for info. on this snake) and the dame was a het blood,charcoal, amel I purchased from Brent/Drizzt80. I contacted Brent about this and he was one of the first to tell me that the genetics were not proven, ( specific to his bloods) and he cautioned me to not label them as definite pied, so I had them as "possible " or "pied-like". Again I will correct this as well where I can.
To the OP, thanks for starting this post and I look forward to the outcome, either way. My .02 is that it is linked to the diffused gene and probably always will be?
 
Walter bred pied X pied but did not get all pieds.

Remember that one of the founders in this group was a look-alike "pied-sided." So, maybe or maybe not. One of Walter's could have been a look-alike het for pied-sided and the other could have been a piedsided. The results would be what he did see.

NOTE: This is just a hypothesis that fits the data. I am not saying this is the case nor am I saying it is a likely description of reality. It's just a possibility. It isn't the one I personally am leaning towards accepting, but ones I like and dislike have little to due with what WILL be found to be true out of all possible explaination. Me? I still bet on Occam's Razor........ Shrug?

KJ
 
Webmasters . . .

QUOTE: Unfortunately, I have lost contact with my web-designer, but will change this as soon as possible! I also have a few old adds on Fauna and here that I will attempt to remove the pied heritability reference from as well. I would like to note that all of my prices were comparable to a "normal" bloodred/diffused, but again I will remove all reference to heritability in any current and future posts until the genetics have been worked out. It popped up in a clutch I had this year and almost every one of the hatchlings ( blood, not het bloods) in both clutches, she doubled, showed pied-like markings, some to a pretty high degree. I held back the best pair, showing the most pied-ness The sire was a bloodred I purchased from a Miguel/Mike Viego of Florida( has not returned emails asking for info. on this snake) and the dame was a het blood,charcoal, amel I purchased from Brent/Drizzt80. I contacted Brent about this and he was one of the first to tell me that the genetics were not proven, ( specific to his bloods) and he cautioned me to not label them as definite pied, so I had them as "possible " or "pied-like". Again I will correct this as well where I can.
To the OP, thanks for starting this post and I look forward to the outcome, either way. My .02 is that it is linked to the diffused gene and probably always will be?


I think the most important thing is to have people stop calling them "pied". One day, the piebald (pied) corn will debut, and when that happens, there'll be all manner of mistakes made if we don't get with the program of calling them what they are. If white appeared every which where, pied wouldn't be a drastically inaccurate tag, but since we know it's unlike pied snakes, in that it's relegated to the sides, we should add (-sided) in their reference.

Funny about your webmaster. My site is a mess, BECAUSE I can't find mine either. Dontcha just hate when ya misplace your webmaster? Working on a new one now, but in the meantime, my site is a real piece uh . . . well, it's a one-wheeled car. The engine comes on, but it won't GO. lol

Regarding the mechanics of the p/s trait, another Q that will be A'd this year is "to link or not to link?”. It appears to be linked to bloods, but we'll have that solved this year also. I have one albino blood that has an obvious amount of ventral-lateral white, but it sprang from bloods here that are not related to my p/s line. SO, you folks out there aren't the only ones scratching their heads about the origins and heritability of this trait. We may not be able to see how they were designed, but we all like them. This year, prices will be very reasonable.
 
I think the most important thing is to have people stop calling them "pied"
I will do that as well! pied-sided it is!

Funny about your webmaster. My site is a mess, BECAUSE I can't find mine either. Dontcha just hate when ya misplace your webmaster? Working on a new one now, but in the meantime, my site is a real piece uh . . . well, it's a one-wheeled car. The engine comes on, but it won't GO. lol
ROFL! Is there some place they disappear to and to take long vacations or what? This was my third so far? I guess I should start to learn how to do thsi stuff myself ( *note to self...good luck" *)
 
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