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CAPITALIST INSANITY

ForkedTung

Serpent Mound Monk
NEW YORK (CNN) -- Patents on two human genes linked to breast and ovarian cancers are being challenged in court by the American Civil Liberties Union, which argues that patenting pure genes is unconstitutional and hinders research for a cancer cure.
A lawyer in the case says patenting genes would be like patenting an eyeball removed from someone.

A lawyer in the case says patenting genes would be like patenting an eyeball removed from someone.

"Knowledge about our own bodies and the ability to make decisions about our health care are some of our most personal and fundamental rights," said ACLU Executive Director Anthony D. Romero. "The government should not be granting private entities control over something as personal and basic to who we are as our genes."

The ACLU, joined by Yeshiva University's law school, filed the lawsuit Tuesday in U.S. District Court in southern New York against the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, Utah-based Myriad Genetics and the University of Utah Research Foundation.

Myriad and the research foundation hold patents on the pair of genes -- known as BRCA1 and BRCA2 -- that are responsible for many cases of hereditary breast and ovarian cancers.

The ACLU contends that patenting the genes limits research and the free flow of information, and as a result violates the First Amendment. The lawsuit also challenges genetic patenting in general, noting that about 20 percent of all human genes are patented -- including genes associated with Alzheimer's disease, muscular dystrophy and asthma.

"It is absolutely our intent that upon victory this will rend invalid patents on many other genes," said Dan Ravicher, executive director of the Public Patent Foundation and a patent law professor at Yeshiva University's Benjamin N. Cardozo School of Law. "We just had to pick one case as our case."

Ravicher offered an analogy to describe the plaintiffs' argument, saying, "It's like saying if someone removes your eyeball ... just because you remove the eyeball and wash it off, that doesn't make the eyeball patentable.
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"Now if they create another eyeball out of plastic or metal, then you can patent that."

Officials at Myriad declined to comment. Tom Parks, the president of the University of Utah foundation, said he was not aware of the lawsuit.

More than 192,000 U.S. women are diagnosed with breast cancer each year -- about 5 to 10 percent of those cases have a hereditary form of the disease, according to the National Cancer Institute. Mutation in the genes called BRCA1 and BRCA2 -- short for breast cancer 1 and breast cancer 2 -- are involved in many cases of hereditary breast and ovarian cancers, the institute said.

"A woman's lifetime chance of developing breast and/or ovarian cancer is greatly increased if she inherits an altered BRCA1 or BRCA2 gene," according to the institute.

Myriad's patents give it exclusive right to perform diagnostic tests on the genes -- forcing other researchers to request permission from the company before they can take a look at BRCA1 and BRCA2, the ACLU said. The patents also give the company the rights to future mutations on the BRCA2 gene and the power to exclude others from providing genetic testing.

The company also charged $3,000 a test, possibly keeping some women from seeking preventive genetic testing, the ACLU says.

"Women whose doctors recommend genetic testing should be able to find out whether they have the gene mutations linked to breast and ovarian cancer so that they are able to make choices that could save their lives, and these patents interfere with their ability to do so," said Lenora Lapidus, director of ACLU's Women's Rights Project.

The plaintiffs in the lawsuit include several patients and more than a dozen universities, genetic specialists and medical associations, such as the Association for Molecular Pathology and the American College of Medical Genetics.

At least one expert said the ACLU should focus more on getting the patents reversed than arguing whether they are constitutional.

"I doubt they're going to get far with argument that the patent is unconstitutional," said Arthur Caplan, director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania.

"A better argument would be that they were wrong when they granted the patent," he added referring to the patent office.

Caplan said patents are privileges, not "carved in stone." He noted that the defendants may have identified the genes, but didn't actually work on them. So, the government could reverse the patents on the genes.

"It's like trying to patent the moon," he said. "You didn't do anything to create it, just discovered something that already existed. You can't patent things that are publicly available, that anyone can find. You have to create something, make something, do something with the thing."



LINK:http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/05/12/us.genes.lawsuit/index.html
 
Socialist misunderstanding of the constitution

argues that patenting pure genes is unconstitutional and hinders research for a cancer cure.

The ACLU contends that patenting the genes limits research and the free flow of information, and as a result violates the First Amendment.

I'm curious why you would think this unconstitutional. The argument of right or wrong is not being challenged in the suit.

The First Amendment states:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; of the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Just because you don't agree does mean a law has been broken.

Furthermore Article I, Section 8 enumerates congress the power

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Rights to their respective Writings and Discoveries.

In this case congress, in keeping with its specified powers under the constitution, isn’t violating a law. Ergo nothing here is unconstitutional.

BTW, "Capitalist" is more useful as an economics definition than a political one. ;)
 
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Um Cav, he didnt say it was unconstitutional, the article did...
And honestly, it is capitalism, people want to own a gene, most likely to profit from it..

Definition of capitalism: an economic system in which wealth, and the means of producing wealth, are privately owned


And I think its sick too, companies want to own everything.. If they could they would own the air we breath, its all about money these days..
 
I agree, it is very very sick, these people should have no right to control someones ability to help find a cure for a disease, it's just wrong. Also, they are trying to capitalize on this gene by patenting it right? So therefor it's "Capitalistic", and unless they created it, how on earth can they patent it. All the potential people have to use their knowledge for good, and this is what these people do!
 
Hey, it may not be ""right"", but what do you expect, those companies have to figure out a way to pay their taxes somehow. Just like the rest of us. :shrugs:

D80
 
You kids these days......The patent protects the company that invested the funds to discover the gene and their ability to use it for future development. Hopefully that ultimately leads to a cure. It doesn't prevent people from using the gene, it just protects the founder from financial loss and the theft of their intellectual capital.

Um Cav, he didnt say it was unconstitutional, the article did...

Clearly. But he did use it as a source when voicing an opinion. Why post a source for an opinion if it doesn't agree with you? You don't! Therefore my original question stands. ;)


And honestly, it is capitalism, people want to own a gene, most likely to profit from it..

Profits provide the incentive for investing the necessary capital funding into R&D.........whose ultimate goal is to create a cure for the disease. ;)

Definition of capitalism: an economic system in which wealth, and the means of producing wealth, are privately owned

Selectively quoting Wikipedia. Nice! Let’s continue the quote.....

Through capitalism, the land, labor, and capital are owned, operated, and traded for the purpose of generating profits, without force or fraud, by private individuals either singly or jointly, and investments, distribution, income, production, pricing and supply of goods, commodities and services are determined by voluntary private decision in a market economy.

If you want to be cured of any ailment its gonna cost money. It isn't your "right", it is a "privilege", and one that costs money. It's not free, nothing is. What incentive would doctors have to invest their entire life learning a skill that requires a high level of long term (and expensive) education if they weren't going to be compensated for their time and effort? None! Do you go to work every day for free? Of course not! Likewise, why would a company invest millions and potentially billions of dollars into the development of new products if there was no incentive for doing so? They wouldn't!

The financial rewards made possible by capitalism attracts smart people. Think of all the things that were invented by American capitalists: the cotton gin, sewing machines, blue jeans, the oil well, light bulbs, assembly line, telephone, cell phone, integrated circuits, calculators, computers, the web, skyscrapers, the elevator, the airplane, the lunar lander, plastics, photocopier, defibrillator, artificial hearts and the polio vaccine. Ever use any of those things?

No? How about more simple things like Coca-Cola, bubble gum, crayons, tea bags, popsicles, chocolate chip cookies (one of my favorites), toilet paper, jazz, rock n roll, rap (not one of my favorites) and frickin’ air conditioning.

Don't know about you Raven but I kinda like these things. ;) I also wouldn't have this golden opportunity to try and get you to unlearn the crap that someone has fed you.........from 9000 miles away. Hell, most of you wouldn't even be in this hobby or on this website without capitalism cuz I know Rich has better things to do than provide for your entertainment out of his own pocket……for free! :rolleyes:



And I think its sick too, companies want to own everything.. If they could they would own the air we breath, its all about money these days..

The corporations are all corporationee....blah, blah, blah. Corporations aren't living beings. They are owned by....people. People just like you and me. They are called shareholders. They invest their hard earned dollars in a business (or corporation) which tries to make money (even a drug company!) but turning a profit. If the business makes a profit then the investors are rewarded with a little extra scratch for their troubles. And since they have a few more dollars as a result, they can go out and buy some snakes, a computer, the internet and waste away being completely unproductive. :dunce:

That is a friggin great system IMNSHO! (But you feel free to go to work……for free; your choice!) :dancer:
 
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CAV, I'm gonna have to disagree with you.

People invest in discovering genes to make profit off of treatment, drugs and so on. It's like the potter, he can't patent clay he found on the beach. He can discover clay but what he does with it, the pots he throws, techniques he uses, formulas for glaze is where his income comes from. Same with the genes, discovering them is the fist step, it's only the clay and it's there for anyone to use. It's not something they created, and shouldn't be able to be patented.

The fact the gene is part of a human being, and belongs to a company, is just creepy.
 
Corporations aren't living beings.

There's a reason the root word is corpus. It's a body onto itself, and in the eyes of the law, IS a living entity.

That's why you can sue a corporation, but not the board members, for the transgressions of the corporation (whose actions/directions are presumably guided by said board).



Dale
 
CAV, I'm gonna have to disagree with you.

People invest in discovering genes to make profit off of treatment, drugs and so on.

Actually you just restated my entire argument. ;)

It's like the potter, he can't patent clay he found on the beach. He can discover clay but what he does with it, the pots he throws, techniques he uses, formulas for glaze is where his income comes from.

The equipment that he uses to find it, dig it, store it and turn it into pottery can all patented. The techniques he used to find the clay, mold the clay, fire the clay and paint the clay can all be patented. The design of the pottery itself can be patented. All he has to do is file the paperwork and prove that no one else holds a similar patent. :)

Same with the genes, discovering them is the fist step, it's only the clay and it's there for anyone to use. It's not something they created, and shouldn't be able to be patented. The fact the gene is part of a human being, and belongs to a company, is just creepy.

That is simply not true. This company was the first one to the finish line in regards to finding this particular gene. Once they found it, they documented it, filed for the patent and were granted one. It is now something that they own the rights to under the laws of the United States.

Guys, it’s not personal, it’s the law. That's why it’s called the legal system and not the justice system. They're simply protecting their interests and that of their shareholders. Whether they are willing to invest the dollars necessary to find the cure or are willing to let someone else "rent" the rights to use their data, who cares?!? The end result is that a medical advancement gets made that otherwise would never had been achieved. If people are cured then the process that it took to get from "A" to "B" will be nothing more than a footnote in a scientific journal.

If you don't like they way they handled this matter then 1) stop complaining, 2) get off the computer, 3) go back to school and get edjumacated, and 4)go find your own gene! You can file a patent, name it something cool like “Trundlefart Gene” and then choose whether you want to give it away or sell it for a profit!

That’s what makes capitalism so great! :cheers:
 
There's a reason the root word is corpus. It's a body onto itself, and in the eyes of the law, IS a living entity.

You know what I meant $m@rt@$$. :rolleyes:

Glad to see that you haven't lost your wit now that you're in your sixth decade of life!:bowdown:
 
Almost sounds like buying a monopoly and calling it a patent. (Not representative of capitalism IMO) I don't think they should be able to patent a gene unless they make it. This is very different from 'making' a new potato by introducing genes that weren't there naturally. THAT is patent worthy.
I say if you don't like it, get out there and change the law, that's what makes Democracy so great!
 
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Wow CAV, I just don't know where to start with your assumptions. I don't think quoting an entire article means that I agree with everything contained within and I think any reasonable person would be able to discern that. For the record I don't understand the ACLU's reasoning for the 1st Ammenment violation, but I do agree with this guy
"I doubt they're going to get far with argument that the patent is unconstitutional," said Arthur Caplan, director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania."A better argument would be that they were wrong when they granted the patent," he added referring to the patent office.
But of course that is not the specific part of the article that you decided to pick and choose to call me out on. You certainly didn't like it when Stephanie did her "selective quoting".
Now if I had highlighted certain parts( like I did to emphasize them), then I think questioning why I highlighted those would be OK. But to hold me accountable for the entire article, as if I wrote it is ridiculous at the very least.
BTW, "Capitalist" is more useful as an economics definition than a political one
You missed the gist of the article. It is about ownership of the genes and purchasing the rights to test them. How can that not be economic?
Myriad and the research foundation hold patents on the pair of genes -- known as BRCA1 and BRCA2 -- that are responsible for many cases of hereditary breast and ovarian cancers.
See they own the genes and the right to test them. If it was such an awesome capitalist idea then there wouldn't be any ownership of the genes( esp. of something that can't be owned). Rather why don't we allow capitalism to work the way it was intended and OPEN the playing field to ALL researchers and then let the one with the best way to test for the cancers etc.. associated with the gene charge what they want for the testing and then another co. can create a better, cheaper test, now that is capitalism...The type of ownership they're talking about precludes that!


You kids these days......The patent protects the company that invested the funds to discover the gene and their ability to use it for future development. Hopefully that ultimately leads to a cure. It doesn't prevent people from using the gene, it just protects the founder from financial loss and the theft of their intellectual capital.
With all your pro-capitalistic fervor you didn't read the article very well. Ownership of the gene could very easily
prevent people from using the gene
they own it, they could sit on it for the next fifty years if they can make more money that way.
Myriad and the research foundation hold patents on the pair of genes -- known as BRCA1 and BRCA2 -- that are responsible for many cases of hereditary breast and ovarian cancers.
Did you even read the article here is a section that I bolded Myriad's patents give it exclusive right to perform diagnostic tests on the genes -- forcing other researchers to request permission from the company before they can take a look at BRCA1 and BRCA2,
Myriad's patents give it exclusive right to perform diagnostic tests on the genes -- forcing other researchers to request permission from the company
that contradicts your
It doesn't prevent people from using the gene, it just protects the founder from financial loss and the theft of their intellectual capital
now doesn't it.
Yes, we get the picture you're a hard core tough guy capitalist but just because some of us don't think parts of the human anatomy should be owned, doesn't mean we're anti-capitalist...just that capitalism can be INSANE at times.

Profits provide the incentive for investing the necessary capital funding into R&D.........whose ultimate goal is to create a cure for the disease.
Wrong! Profit provides incentive for more profit! If the company determined that ownership is more profitable than a cure, what do you think would happen? Before you answer remember what the peanut guys recently did!
It is now something that they own the rights to under the laws of the United States.

Guys, it’s not personal, it’s the law. That's why it’s called the legal system and not the justice system. They're simply protecting their interests and that of their shareholders.
Yeah, That's why the ACLU and Yeshiva University's law school is using the legal system to address this injustice, see it can work both ways.
Corporations aren't living beings. They are owned by....people. People just like you and me.
while this is strictly true they do operate as living entities, ever heard of ENRON.
If the business makes a profit then the investors are rewarded with a little extra scratch for their troubles.
a little extra scratch. Yeah that's realistic...ROFL Now that is funny...The pharmaceutical companies and their shareholders get a little extra scratch lol, now I see where you're coming from...lol
 
And I think its sick too, companies want to own everything.. If they could they would own the air we breath, its all about money these days..

For sure Stephanie, In a way they already do. Carbon Emission Credits give the right to pollute, they are bought and sold as a commodity.



Almost sounds like buying a monopoly and calling it a patent. (Not representative of capitalism IMO) I don't think they should be able to patent a gene unless they make it. This is very different from 'making' a new potato by introdusing genes that weren't there naturally. THAT is patent worthy.
I say if you don't like it, get out there and change the law, that's what makes Democracy so great!
Exactly Tom e, and that is what the ACLU and the U. are doing, Just to make it clear so other don't jump to incorrect assumptions I don't necessarily agree with everything the ACLU or any one organization or political party does for that matter, so please don't hold me accountable for all that is wrong...:crazy01:
 
Finally! I though I has scared you off!

Now that is almost an actual opinion! Far different from dropping someone else’s article and titling the post "Yeah what he said!"

What you weren't aware before deciding to respond to me with such "zeal and vigor" (kudos on at least having some passion) was that I'd been reading quite a few of your other posts. I decided to call you out because most of your political posts show a general lack of knowledge on the subjects you choose to "discuss". The real sticking point occurs once someone dares to disagree with you. You tend to come off as a bully instead of acting like an adult and having an informed debate. It has to be personal in order to be effective . In short, you have a short string and I knew that I would get this kind of a reaction when I pulled it. Thanks for proving my point with your previous post. Yep, I baited you and you took it......hook......line......and sinker. :poke:

So lesson learned. That's how you come off to people that don't know you from Adam. Don't get into a battle of wits with someone you don’t know; they might just make you look downright silly. :rolleyes:

Chill out Dude. This is a snake forum and you aren't Keith Olbermann.

For the record, patents don't last forever. :)
 
I can see that your probably the type of person that there is no sense in arguing with.. ;)
Therefore, I am not going to waste my time arguing with someone who will never see another point of view other than their own. ;)
Thats all I have to say, it's not worth it..
 
Passive CAV said:

You know what I meant $m@rt@$$. :rolleyes:

Glad to see that you haven't lost your wit now that you're in your sixth decade of life!:bowdown:

Aggressive CAV said:

Now that is almost an actual opinion! Far different from dropping someone else’s article and titling the post "Yeah what he said!"

What you weren't aware before deciding to respond to me with such "zeal and vigor" (kudos on at least having some passion) was that I'd been reading quite a few of your other posts. I decided to call you out because most of your political posts show a general lack of knowledge on the subjects you choose to "discuss". The real sticking point occurs once someone dares to disagree with you. You tend to come off as a bully instead of acting like an adult and having an informed debate. It has to be personal in order to be effective . In short, you have a short string and I knew that I would get this kind of a reaction when I pulled it. Thanks for proving my point with your previous post. Yep, I baited you and you took it......hook......line......and sinker. :poke:

So lesson learned. That's how you come off to people that don't know you from Adam. Don't get into a battle of wits with someone you don’t know; they might just make you look downright silly. :rolleyes:

Chill out Dude. This is a snake forum and you aren't Keith Olbermann.

For the record, patents don't last forever. :)

Funny how your response to me was one of a personal nature, and yet, you're calling out someone for making it personal.

As always, I'm a fan of irony.


Dale
 
Now that is almost an actual opinion! Far different from dropping someone else’s article and titling the post "Yeah what he said!"

What you weren't aware before deciding to respond to me with such "zeal and vigor" (kudos on at least having some passion) was that I'd been reading quite a few of your other posts. I decided to call you out because most of your political posts show a general lack of knowledge on the subjects you choose to "discuss". The real sticking point occurs once someone dares to disagree with you. You tend to come off as a bully instead of acting like an adult and having an informed debate. It has to be personal in order to be effective . In short, you have a short string and I knew that I would get this kind of a reaction when I pulled it. Thanks for proving my point with your previous post. Yep, I baited you and you took it......hook......line......and sinker. :poke:


You have got to be kidding me...your cover story for lame, poorly thought out, passive-aggressive posts is cyber-stalking me to get a rise out of me???
Show of hands, Does anyone actually believe this nonsense? If it was true than it's really pathetic, but I don't for one second believe it. ROFL...


So lesson learned. That's how you come off to people that don't know you from Adam. Don't get into a battle of wits with someone you don’t know; they might just make you look downright silly. :rolleyes:

I can address the above with one word:
Projectionism...
look in the mirror "Dude"


Chill out Dude. This is a snake forum and you aren't Keith Olbermann.
Again, I'm not the one who's hyper-critical

For the record, . :)
That's it? that's all you got?
patents don't last forever
That's your rebuttal? It certainly illustrates a "general lack of knowledge" on your part.
Thanks that was easy...lol
 
I do think that giving patents like this is convenient in the sense that someone will go and do the work. But the convenience don't make it right IMO. The argument simply is that you patent what you create, not what you discover.
On the other hand I think the title of this thread is the only thing I disagree with (not to put TOO fine a point on it- I agree with most of what you said ForkedTung) This process is more an abuse of capitalism than an example of the problems with it.
Again, my opinion.

Good for the ACLU! That's what I pay them for.
 
I can see that your probably the type of person that there is no sense in arguing with.. ;)
Therefore, I am not going to waste my time arguing with someone who will never see another point of view other than their own. ;)
Thats all I have to say, it's not worth it..
And can I get an AMEN, and praise the Lord? Gotta love watching my friends Steph, Kyle and JAZZ disembowel their opponents both verbally AND factually.
:cheers:
 
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