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1.0 Lav het amel, blood, stripe

Joejr14

Joejr14

Grand Bubble Burster
This was such a cool pairing. Nothing like pairing up $1k+ snakes with each other, eh?

These hatchlings did not disappoint, that's for sure. You can clearly see the bloodred influence in all of them, but the males are most obvious. At first glance with some of them you might even think lavender bloodred.

This guy is my keeper of the bunch. He's really light, which contrasts pretty well with the females that I'm keeping back---because they're a lot darker.

These guys are all going onto the advanced Munson diet to get them up to breeding size in 2 years so we can hopefully hatch out the very first lav blood stripe---or maybe even a blopal stripe. ;) Of course, I have no idea how you'd identify that....

But hey, who can complain when the byproducts of that project are lav strips, opal stripes, lav bloods and opal bloods. I certainly wont!
 

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Joejr14 said:
At first glance with some of them you might even think lavender bloodred.
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You can be sure about that!He so much reminds me of the lavender blood I got from Carol a month ago.

Stunning!With hets! :bang:
 
Joejr14 said:
...to get them up to breeding size in 2 years so we can hopefully hatch out the very first lav blood stripe---or maybe even a blopal stripe.
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So you're advocating power feeding and risking the long term health of your snakes for your own personal, selfish reasons? Wonder where the public outcry for the sake of the snakes will be on this one.
 
Duff said:
So you're advocating power feeding and risking the long term health of your snakes for your own personal, selfish reasons? Wonder where the public outcry for the sake of the snakes will be on this one.
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Yup, I'm an evil cornsnake power breeder. And I don't recall asking you for your help or opinions on how I raise my snakes. In fact, all I did was show a picture to show everyone how cool this clutch came out.

Unfortunately, you once again felt the need to call someone out because you don't agree with something they're doing. Did I say that I was going to put them in danger? Have you done studies to see how 'aggressive' feeding at the start of their lives effects corns? I don't think so.

Get the hell off your high horse.
 
Considering I take head pattern and dorsal saddles into consideration when picking my own keepers, I have to say that is one HOT snake!

D80
 
Joejr14 said:
Get the hell off your high horse.
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Touchy, touchy. And not to mention a bit inflammatory. If anyone spends time on a high horse, I think everyone knows who does alot of that.

But anyway, you posted on a public forum, admitting to a controversial practice, so you shouldn't be surprised if someone points it out. Personally, I feel it's a bad idea, and just want anyone reading this who may not know the whole story about 'aggressive' feeding (politically correct version of power feeding, IMO) to know that this may not be the safest or most responsible thing to do.

I also wanted to point out a bit of the hypocritical nature of some people around here. Whenever a newbie comes on and mentions a controversial practice, they get grilled and piled on, but others are able to get away with it. I for one, am not a hypocrite, so I'll state my opinion on it no matter who is doing it.
 
Nice!

Can you keep us updated like every month or so,on the size and growth rate of him? Pictures also would be nice! :cheers:
 
Great pics. He's a nice lav. His brother and sister are doing great. It's feeding night for them, and they're HUNGRY little things. :)

For the record, the purpose of the Munson Plan is not to get corn snakes to breeding size in two years or less. If your prey items are the best quality, and if your snakes are good nutrient assimilators, and if you consistently feed at the high end of the plan's frequency ranges, you could probably acheive that goal. But it isn't the plan's intent. It's just a general guideline. But even the most aggressive application within its guidelines can't accurately be deemed power-feeding.
 
I've read the 'Munson Plan' as a guideline, and would personally rather have my little'uns romp away in their first year like Sundance who weighed 12g August 06 , 100g August 07 and is now a sleek and healthy 145 at @18 months than feed very conservatively and have a skinny yearling at 35g like Buck was when I bought him. It's not force-feeding with a lolly stick and will let the snake grow at its' own pace, because it follows the snake's growth, upping prey size as the snake's weight (or mass) increases, not upping prey size to precipitate growth. How is that controversial?
Would Joe really jeopardise the health of these hatchlings? Wouldn't that scupper his plans completely?
BTW, gorgeous hatchling,I'm seething with jealousy, and I don't even like most lavs!
 
diamondlil said:
I've read the 'Munson Plan' as a guideline, and would personally rather have my little'uns romp away in their first year like Sundance who weighed 12g August 06 , 100g August 07 and is now a sleek and healthy 145 at @18 months than feed very conservatively and have a skinny yearling at 35g like Buck was when I bought him. It's not force-feeding with a lolly stick and will let the snake grow at its' own pace, because it follows the snake's growth, upping prey size as the snake's weight (or mass) increases, not upping prey size to precipitate growth. How is that controversial?
Would Joe really jeopardise the health of these hatchlings? Wouldn't that scupper his plans completely?
BTW, gorgeous hatchling,I'm seething with jealousy, and I don't even like most lavs!
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Just for the record, I never mentioned anything about the "Munson" plan, and it had absolutely nothing to do with my response. I don't see that plan as power feeding at all, so please stop assuming that I have a problem with it.

Now, having cleared that up, my issue is the clear agenda to have females up to breeding size by 2 years. IMO, that cannot be done without power feeding. Aggressive feeding is just a nicer way of saying it (again, IMO). And yes, I believe (notice, I said I believe, not it's a fact), that he is jeopardizing the long term health of his snakes by "aggressively" feeding them in the first 18 or so months to get them ready for breeding sooner. You do realize that to breed a snake at 2 years, they're actually more like 1 1/2 by the time they're put together and begin gestating fertile eggs. His stated goal is to be the first, so does not want to wait the extra year, which would be safer for any females. That's putting selfish reasons ahead of the long term well being of the animal, IMO.
 
Duff said:
Just for the record, I never mentioned anything about the "Munson" plan, and it had absolutely nothing to do with my response. I don't see that plan as power feeding at all, so please stop assuming that I have a problem with it.
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Well...since your original accusation of 'power feeding', in your opinion, was in reference to this quote:
Joejr14 said:
...These guys are all going onto the advanced Munson diet to get them up to breeding size in 2 years...
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It would appear to some, if not all, of those viewing this public forum that you have insinuated that the Munson Plan is power feeding.

Just my humble interpretation.

:cheers:
 
Those are some nice looking snakes, Joe.

Duff said:
That's putting selfish reasons ahead of the long term well being of the animal, IMO.
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I think most people would agree that breeding at all is putting selfish interests ahead of the long term well being of females. But I don't see any hubbub about that. Some animals will grow to breeding size in a year and a half, others won't. Joe is going to see if his will. If they aren't fast growers, I doubt he will jeopardize their health by feeding them prey items that are too big, or by feeding them to many prey items too fast.

I have a female that I bred at 2 years that I fed more conservatively than the Munson plan. I wasn't planning to breed her at all originally, so I wasn't feeding her just to get her up to size. I was feeding her appropriately sized prey items once a week, and I didn't brumate her. Once she was up to size, I put my own interests ahead of her long term well-being and decided to breed her so that I could learn about how it goes so that when I later put my interests ahead of the other females in my collection, I won't squander their production through my own inexperience at incubating.
 
We're all horrible people, it's okay. We shouldn't breed our poor females. They might die.
 
desertanimal said:
I think most people would agree that breeding at all is putting selfish interests ahead of the long term well being of females. But I don't see any hubbub about that. Some animals will grow to breeding size in a year and a half, others won't. Joe is going to see if his will. If they aren't fast growers, I doubt he will jeopardize their health by feeding them prey items that are too big, or by feeding them to many prey items too fast.
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I completely agree. Breeding is, however, a big reason why a lot of us are in this hobby. :)
I have a female that I bred at 2 years that I fed more conservatively than the Munson plan. I wasn't planning to breed her at all originally, so I wasn't feeding her just to get her up to size. I was feeding her appropriately sized prey items once a week, and I didn't brumate her. Once she was up to size, I put my own interests ahead of her long term well-being and decided to breed her so that I could learn about how it goes so that when I later put my interests ahead of the other females in my collection, I won't squander their production through my own inexperience at incubating.
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Of the three cornsnakes that I originally bought (2 yrs ago), two of them are beyond breeding size. All three were fed on appropriate sized prey every 5 to 7 days and never brumated. One is at 524g, another at 336 and the last is at 80g. I personally think that each snake is different and capable of an individual growth rate. There is no standard size to age ratio. Again, that's just my humble opinion.

:cheers:
 
Joejr14 said:
We're all horrible people, it's okay. We shouldn't breed our poor females. They might die.
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Ya! On another note, shame on us for providing these snakes with a warm safe environment. Free of predators and filled with an abundance of readily available meals that they don't need to hunt for! :grin01:

:cheers:
 
Fizzlefry22 said:
Ya! On another note, shame on us for providing these snakes with a warm safe environment. Free of predators and filled with an abundance of readily available meals that they don't need to hunt for! :grin01:

:cheers:
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Srsly. If you really have their best interest in mind, you should have them outside in a large multiple acre pen so that hatchlings can get picked off by predators. And of course, you should let them hunt for themselves.
 
Duff said:
Just for the record, I never mentioned anything about the "Munson" plan, and it had absolutely nothing to do with my response. I don't see that plan as power feeding at all, so please stop assuming that I have a problem with it.
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Thanks for clearing that up. I made my "for the record" statement as general clarification, not as a direct response to your post. :)

Now, having cleared that up, my issue is the clear agenda to have females up to breeding size by 2 years. IMO, that cannot be done without power feeding.
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I have to disagree with your second statement here. I have a Rich Hume "mystery" project hypo-blood that was 8g on the day I bought her, 9/10/06. I've fed her on the conservative side of the Munson Plan frequency ranges. In other words, where the plan says to feed pinks every 4-5 days, I fed her every 5; where the plan says to feed hoppers every 5-6 days, I went with 6. Still, I was shocked today, almost exactly 13 months after her take-home date, that she weighs 303g! I've been aware that she's my fastest growing '06 corn, but I hadn't weighed her in months, so I was surprised by her weight. As you said, the M Plan is not power-feeding, but she acheived breeding weight, without power-feeding, as a 14 or 15 month old.

I doubt that I'll use her in '08, but I'm brumating her anyway just to put the brakes on her growth rate.
 
First, it sounds like some bad blood is floating between some members here.

Second, this statement, ....These guys are all going onto the advanced Munson diet to get them up to breeding size in 2 years so we can....dose make it confusing to the general female breeding rule of three years old, 300 grams and three feet long.
Nothing wrong with the "Munson diet". I think the word advanced is the kicker.

Nice looking worm tho.
 
Anyone else see the hypocrisy here? There is a common train of thought that feeding aggressively early in a snakes life may affect the lifespan or long term health of the snake. Therefore, in the snakes best interest, you shouldn't do that, just to be safe.

Now, move on to cohabbing (if done responsibly, not mixed-sexes, knowing what you're doing, yada yada yada). The ultimate sin, because it only benefits the keeper and there's a chance, however slim, that it could harm the snakes involved. What the h e double hockey sticks is the difference?? But I'm being ridiculous and unreasonable on aggressive feeding. :shrugs:

And to borrow (and adjust accordingly) a popular quote that people love to throw out on the above issue... There's never a problem with aggressive feeding until there's a problem with aggressive feeding (i.e. snake dies early, goes fertile early, whatever could possibly result from it). There are sooooo many hypocrites here.
 
Fizzlefry22 said:
Well...since your original accusation of 'power feeding', in your opinion, was in reference to this quote:

It would appear to some, if not all, of those viewing this public forum that you have insinuated that the Munson Plan is power feeding.

Just my humble interpretation.

:cheers:
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Did I include the Munson plan part in the quoted part of my response? Didn't think so.
 
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