Susan
Go Ahead, Make My Day!
Who? What? Where? I don't see them! :crying:
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stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be
- Thread starter asnakecalled?
- Start date
Who? What? Where? I don't see them! :crying:
Again, (or did I just miss it in this thread?) when and where has anyone proven that the Ultra is a hybrid and not a "real cornsnake"? I worked with them for quite a long time, and think I would have seen markers that would have raised questions in my mind.
So please, someone show me the evidence they are using for the basis of this supposed universal "understanding" that I have missed.
Yes, brooksi is now floridana. The term is now used for floridana from the southern most part of the range. They are pure floridana which do not intergrade with getula. Meansi are a total different species and have nothing to do with floridana. In that part of Florida there are area where all there species likely intergrade. I actually have wc locality animals from a lot of the different counties up there. They are some very unique NATURAL animals. The difference is that not all floridana intergrade with meansi and getula. You can goggle Hubbs range map which shows the different ranges and intergrade zones.
The snakes that Ryan posted do not bother him at all. I do not care for them because I do nit like man made crosses. It's a very common question that people ask because the species intergrade naturally. I would bet money he used "brooksi" which descended from animals that would not have intergraded with the other.
This is a wc levy county naturally occurring intergrade. Awesome snake that you can go out and find in the wild. It cannot be created in captivity.
Ryan Beatty
New member
Rich, ultras being hybrids as you know is very controversial. Don swears he was told by the originator that they came from grey rats. Don is a friend of mine and I can't help but believe him. He has never lied to me, as far as I know, but again it's a matter of this person told this person told this person.....etc...
Ultra has such a popular reputation as being from hybrid origins, in my opinion, it's too late to prove they aren't short of DNA testing. That may not make sense to some but even if concrete evidence was provided that ultras are not hybrids you will still have a lot of nay-sayers.
Some of the ultras/ultramels I have seen do a look a little "off" but then again keys look "off" when compared to okeetees. Most of the ultramels in my collection act more like freakin' hondurans than corns. (And no I have not crossed ultras into hondurans.....yet) :dgrin:
Most of them squirm and thrash when held and act like coiled springs when you open the box jumping out at you.
Anyway that's just my take on the situation.
Ultra has such a popular reputation as being from hybrid origins, in my opinion, it's too late to prove they aren't short of DNA testing. That may not make sense to some but even if concrete evidence was provided that ultras are not hybrids you will still have a lot of nay-sayers.
Some of the ultras/ultramels I have seen do a look a little "off" but then again keys look "off" when compared to okeetees. Most of the ultramels in my collection act more like freakin' hondurans than corns. (And no I have not crossed ultras into hondurans.....yet) :dgrin:
Most of them squirm and thrash when held and act like coiled springs when you open the box jumping out at you.
Anyway that's just my take on the situation.
RobbiesCornField
Bring it on.
Since this is the first one I saw, I'll use this one for my comments. Those are some AWESOME looking "evul hybirds"! You'll have to let me know what you've got coming out this year. I have a little male Apricot Pueblan Milk that I'd love to cross into a few of those in the coming years, just for his coloration to be added to the mix.
This... coming from you, of all people? :eek1: :sidestep: :blowhead:
SnakeAround
Formerly Blutengel
Lovely how much space you provide those awesome natural occuring species with, Gerards, espicially that large yellow Floridana. I guess that goes with being a professional, right? I'm happy to be a non professional breeding hybrids that get alot of space, without understandign the terrible harm they do to the hobby.
Quarantine, I just got them in a week ago. She is actually the smallest too, the males hardly fit in there at all. I will make sure to email you pics once their new cages arrive in a few weeks. Go to know what kind of hybrid breeder you are, seems you took offense to my last post to you, shame. Take care.
She loves hybrids..
SnakeAround
Formerly Blutengel
Well, calling anyone who does not acknowledge the problem you see, not professional, is just an opinion of course, but it adds to the houlier than thou attitude. That sure brings up a bit of sarcasm in my writing. Further, I do not see myself as a professional to begin with since I do not breed snakes for a living, which would make a professional. Not any view on hybrids or pureness of species defines me as a professional or not, let alone someone supporting a view I understand but do not share.
Looking forward to see the pics! And I love the Herpteks, I use them myself too. Lovely (king?) cobra! She looks so friendly!
Looking forward to see the pics! And I love the Herpteks, I use them myself too. Lovely (king?) cobra! She looks so friendly!
Again, it's not a problem I see, it's a problem. Attitude comes from the lack of respect for the stuff other people like. What I like cannot affect you, only you can affect me. Don't get bent out of shape, how much longer would you like to keep talking about the same 2 things? Do your thing and enjoy yourself, if you feel the need to defend yourself that's fine but I will not say anymore to you. Let's be friends.
This is what it's all about anyway.
SnakeAround
Formerly Blutengel
Lovely photo, let us be friends indeed, we are not gonna be any closer than liking snakes 
If the person that Don got his info from is Mike Shiver, then the SOURCE of that info is certainly suspect, in my opinion. I've worked with both corns and early on black rats and gray rats for a number of years and certainly had people foist hybrids on me saying they were one thing and my observations convinced me that they had lied to me. Heck a guy by the name of Andy Barr sold me a bunch of neat looking corns he was calling "Frosted Corns" and swore up and down they were pure, but after working with them for a year or two, I felt certain that they were NOT, and I got rid of the lot of them. Some other guy sold me a bunch of really interesting looking "corns" that I later became convinced with simply king/corn hybrids, and they got moved on out as well.
I got my original ultras (which he called "Ultra Hypo") from Mike Falcon and nearly every time I saw him, I grilled him about the origination of those animals. He always told me the same consistent story about how the came from a wild caught animal. Mike Shiver, on the other hand, swore up and down that the animals he sold as "Ambers", which turned out to be Ultramel Caramels (which we now call "GoldDust") came from pure corn stock from the same line that Mike Falcon's came from. After it was determined that those "Ambers" really were not what Mike thought they were, and instead proved to be something rather unique and somewhat more valuable (which I am sure incensed Mike greatly since he had a corner on that market which he lost out on), then from what I have heard, Mike got out of the business and then changes his tune. Which, in my opinion, takes on quite a bit of the coloring of someone just expressing sour grapes about missing out on something.
So apparently there are three people I know of who were originally involved with the animals that the Ultras came from: Mike Falcon, Andy Barr, and Mike Shiver. Where exactly the truth lies that came from each of them, is pretty much anyone's guess now.
So when you hear two different stories from the same person, neither of which can both be true, what do you do? Well you make your own decisions based on your own observations and experience. Quite frankly, I worked with the Ultras and Ultramels for quite a long time, and never saw even the slightest indication that they were anything but regular old corn snakes. If I had had that suspicion, I would have dumped the lot of them. So in my opinion, the case simply is that they either were NOT hybrids, or if they were hybrids, they had been so deeply bred back into corns to remove any of the markers that would TELL they were hybrids, that the point was moot. Just how pure is "pure" anyway? If a corn and a yellow rat snake had a naturally occurring "tryst" 100 generations ago, and those offspring never again followed in that path, does it really matter? NO ONE on this Earth can claim that something like that never happened in the stock that they are claiming is "pure". This runs along with the same argument of those people claiming that they have "pure" Okeetee corns.
Here's a clue: There AIN'T any such thing. That is purely an arbitrary and artificial label that some choose to use for their animals.Also, I would like to know how it has come to be that just about EVERY new genetic trait found in the cornsnakes is claimed by some people to have been the result of hybridization. It's pretty much a given now that when a new genetic trait shows up, a group of people will invariably claim that it must be a hybrid. I'm curious about the natural law mechanism at hand that works in such a matter that new genetic material can only be created in corn snakes by the method of breeding corns with other species or genera? Along this same line of thought, especially in relation to the ultras, which people are claiming is the result of breeding gray rats into corn snakes, well, where are all the gray rat snakes expressing the effect that "ultra" expresses in the corn snakes? Furthermore, are there any examples out there of some other species being bred with gray rat snakes expressing something akin to what "ultra" does with corn snakes? Does ANYONE have, or know of, examples and evidence of the above to support the supposition that "ultra" in the corns HAD to have (and could ONLY have) been created by the combination of traits provided when a gray rat snake was bred to a corn snake?
Ryan, you are doing a lot of hybridization, I presume from your pics. So tell me, how many new genes have you developed and identified as a result of these hybridization results? I would think, based on what some people are claiming as the causative agent for every new cornsnake gene discovered, that you must be absolutely FLOODED with new genes being uncovered in those hybrid animals.
Quite frankly, I don't have anything against hybrids myself. The world is big enough for everyone to experience what they want to experience and work with at their own pleasure and interest. I, personally, chose to not work with them in relation to my corn snakes, at least not knowingly. At one time I did have a bunch of hybrid king/milks that I got from Bill Gillingham many years ago, but that was pre-Internet days, and I decided to get right back out of them because of the difficulty of selling animals that you couldn't market without taking individual photos of each and every one of them for every prospective customer. I thought they were gorgeous and unique animals, but they just did not fit into what I wanted to do.
Anyway, seriously people, just stop with the derogatory rhetoric and condensation towards someone who just has interests not aligned with your own. Just because someone likes something you don't doesn't make them necessarily bad as a result. You don't have to LIKE what they do, but I don't see any reason to try to belittle them and their interests.
starsevol
Cohabbing is cruelty...
If the person that Don got his info from is Mike Shiver, then the SOURCE of that info is certainly suspect, in my opinion. I've worked with both corns and early on black rats and gray rats for a number of years and certainly had people foist hybrids on me saying they were one thing and my observations convinced me that they had lied to me. Heck a guy by the name of Andy Barr sold me a bunch of neat looking corns he was calling "Frosted Corns" and swore up and down they were pure, but after working with them for a year or two, I felt certain that they were NOT, and I got rid of the lot of them. Some other guy sold me a bunch of really interesting looking "corns" that I later became convinced with simply king/corn hybrids, and they got moved on out as well.
I got my original ultras (which he called "Ultra Hypo") from Mike Falcon and nearly every time I saw him, I grilled him about the origination of those animals. He always told me the same consistent story about how the came from a wild caught animal. Mike Shiver, on the other hand, swore up and down that the animals he sold as "Ambers", which turned out to be Ultramel Caramels (which we now call "GoldDust") came from pure corn stock from the same line that Mike Falcon's came from. After it was determined that those "Ambers" really were not what Mike thought they were, and instead proved to be something rather unique and somewhat more valuable (which I am sure incensed Mike greatly since he had a corner on that market which he lost out on), then from what I have heard, Mike got out of the business and then changes his tune. Which, in my opinion, takes on quite a bit of the coloring of someone just expressing sour grapes about missing out on something.
So apparently there are three people I know of who were originally involved with the animals that the Ultras came from: Mike Falcon, Andy Barr, and Mike Shiver. Where exactly the truth lies that came from each of them, is pretty much anyone's guess now.
So when you hear two different stories from the same person, neither of which can both be true, what do you do? Well you make your own decisions based on your own observations and experience. Quite frankly, I worked with the Ultras and Ultramels for quite a long time, and never saw even the slightest indication that they were anything but regular old corn snakes. If I had had that suspicion, I would have dumped the lot of them. So in my opinion, the case simply is that they either were NOT hybrids, or if they were hybrids, they had been so deeply bred back into corns to remove any of the markers that would TELL they were hybrids, that the point was moot. Just how pure is "pure" anyway? If a corn and a yellow rat snake had a naturally occurring "tryst" 100 generations ago, and those offspring never again followed in that path, does it really matter? NO ONE on this Earth can claim that something like that never happened in the stock that they are claiming is "pure". This runs along with the same argument of those people claiming that they have "pure" Okeetee corns.
Also, I would like to know how it has come to be that just about EVERY new genetic trait found in the cornsnakes is claimed by some people to have been the result of hybridization. It's pretty much a given now that when a new genetic trait shows up, a group of people will invariably claim that it must be a hybrid. I'm curious about the natural law mechanism at hand that works in such a matter that new genetic material can only be created in corn snakes by the method of breeding corns with other species or genera? Along this same line of thought, especially in relation to the ultras, which people are claiming is the result of breeding gray rats into corn snakes, well, where are all the gray rat snakes expressing the effect that "ultra" expresses in the corn snakes? Furthermore, are there any examples out there of some other species being bred with gray rat snakes expressing something akin to what "ultra" does with corn snakes? Does ANYONE have, or know of, examples and evidence of the above to support the supposition that "ultra" in the corns HAD to have (and could ONLY have) been created by the combination of traits provided when a gray rat snake was bred to a corn snake?
Ryan, you are doing a lot of hybridization, I presume from your pics. So tell me, how many new genes have you developed and identified as a result of these hybridization results? I would think, based on what some people are claiming as the causative agent for every new cornsnake gene discovered, that you must be absolutely FLOODED with new genes being uncovered in those hybrid animals.
Quite frankly, I don't have anything against hybrids myself. The world is big enough for everyone to experience what they want to experience and work with at their own pleasure and interest. I, personally, chose to not work with them in relation to my corn snakes, at least not knowingly. At one time I did have a bunch of hybrid king/milks that I got from Bill Gillingham many years ago, but that was pre-Internet days, and I decided to get right back out of them because of the difficulty of selling animals that you couldn't market without taking individual photos of each and every one of them for every prospective customer. I thought they were gorgeous and unique animals, but they just did not fit into what I wanted to do.
Anyway, seriously people, just stop with the derogatory rhetoric and condensation towards someone who just has interests not aligned with your own. Just because someone likes something you don't doesn't make them necessarily bad as a result. You don't have to LIKE what they do, but I don't see any reason to try to belittle them and their interests.
Rich, all I can say is thank you. I really wanted your take on this and this post was well worth the wait. Even though I am not a fan of the man made hybrids, we as a community really do need to pull together. The freezer fodder remark was really part tongue in cheek, of course who can see that on the interwebs. I would never hurt a living thing, not even a mouse (yes, I am really THAT much of a softhearted idiot). Oh, and your new mod notices scare the crap outta me too!
I still think Ella will be bred to a golddust in the future. She is a beautiful pinky silvery thingy and as much as I love her, her ultraness was a bit of a thorn in my side. Not so much now! Christen I will keep you posted.
Kevin S.
New member
Regarding Ryan's observations of ultras-I could see using these same criteria to point the finger at sunkisseds. Not that his observations aren't valid, I just don't think they're indicative of hybridization. For example, it's pretty much universally agreed that sunkisseds are more aggressive than most corns and they even seem to have a different shape to their heads. In some ways they remind me of racers, but obviously they aren't hybrids. If they were, all of these traits would have disappeared as they were crossed with so many other corn morphs. Just a thought.
Ryan Beatty
New member
Rich, I agree with your stand on ultras for the most part and I appreciate the info, some of which I did not know concerning the background of ultras.
I'm glad you took the time to chime in on the subject.
Regarding new genes popping up in my hybrid projects. The only thing I've discovered so far is there is some relation to the corn stripe/motley gene and the black rat white-sided gene. I have not completely proven this yet but I did produce visual white-sideds from being a amel motley corn het butter, snow and stripe to an amel beast corn het black rat white-sided. Obviously there is not white-sided gene in corns (at least not that we know of) so one of the genes the corn was carrying had to line up with the white-sided gene.
Some of the pics I posted were from years ago. I do have a lot of hybrids but I have a relatively large collection and have a ton of "pure" corns as well as kings, western hogs and rosy boas.
I'm glad you took the time to chime in on the subject.
Regarding new genes popping up in my hybrid projects. The only thing I've discovered so far is there is some relation to the corn stripe/motley gene and the black rat white-sided gene. I have not completely proven this yet but I did produce visual white-sideds from being a amel motley corn het butter, snow and stripe to an amel beast corn het black rat white-sided. Obviously there is not white-sided gene in corns (at least not that we know of) so one of the genes the corn was carrying had to line up with the white-sided gene.
Some of the pics I posted were from years ago. I do have a lot of hybrids but I have a relatively large collection and have a ton of "pure" corns as well as kings, western hogs and rosy boas.
Attachments
dave partington
Crazy Dave
Thanks for sharing
dave partington
Crazy Dave
This so makes up for not having cable tv in the last 27 years. Thanks for sharing. Can I help you eat that fish?
Seems that when what we call North America
separated away from what we call Europe
a lot longer ago then I've been alive
and we like to scientifically compartmentalize each gene and widget
so we can put it all together in our minds
Do you think God made it possible for us mere mortals to be able to make hybrid snakes; was it part of the Grand Plan? For us to be here now having this priceless dialog?
I know if a dog and a cat try something nothing comes of it, but if "new World" colubrids get together one Saturday night during low barometric pressure, stuff happens which some say should not happen. It seems to indicate some common ancestry.
In 1979 I got the pricelist from a place called "The Shed" in S Florida, and on it was a trio of wild caught Albino Cornsnakes. Their price was "Inquire". (for comparison: ) The price of w/c imported Green Tree Pythons was $5000.-
This was back when Frank L Slavens was publishing the "Inventory of Reptiles in North American Collections". Pre-internet.
so now we are at this nexus of time , captive breeding, and events...
And just not so long ago the North American Elaphe became No More, instead exchanged an entire Genus naming,
Thinking about these hybreeds...
Odd how the amel gene in corns, milks, kings, bulls, (need I go on?) are all compatible. It's the same gene. It's amel. It's compatible throughout them all.
"New World" and "Old World" (formerly) Elaphes do not create hybrids when bred to each other. They produce slugs. Many have tried and got mold. Yum yum. Egg shaped cheese. As far as I know.
So much has changed in the last 30 years.
I don't know quite what to make of it all.
How pure are you?
Seems that when what we call North America
separated away from what we call Europe
a lot longer ago then I've been alive
and we like to scientifically compartmentalize each gene and widget
so we can put it all together in our minds
Do you think God made it possible for us mere mortals to be able to make hybrid snakes; was it part of the Grand Plan? For us to be here now having this priceless dialog?
I know if a dog and a cat try something nothing comes of it, but if "new World" colubrids get together one Saturday night during low barometric pressure, stuff happens which some say should not happen. It seems to indicate some common ancestry.
In 1979 I got the pricelist from a place called "The Shed" in S Florida, and on it was a trio of wild caught Albino Cornsnakes. Their price was "Inquire". (for comparison: ) The price of w/c imported Green Tree Pythons was $5000.-
This was back when Frank L Slavens was publishing the "Inventory of Reptiles in North American Collections". Pre-internet.
so now we are at this nexus of time , captive breeding, and events...
And just not so long ago the North American Elaphe became No More, instead exchanged an entire Genus naming,
Thinking about these hybreeds...
Odd how the amel gene in corns, milks, kings, bulls, (need I go on?) are all compatible. It's the same gene. It's amel. It's compatible throughout them all.
"New World" and "Old World" (formerly) Elaphes do not create hybrids when bred to each other. They produce slugs. Many have tried and got mold. Yum yum. Egg shaped cheese. As far as I know.
So much has changed in the last 30 years.
I don't know quite what to make of it all.
How pure are you?
starsevol
Cohabbing is cruelty...
Ryan, as far as there not being a white sided gene in corns, what about the pied side gene? I have seen some extreme examples of this in pure corns.
Ryan Beatty
New member
I have video from the shed of the first albino Burm and pied ball python and a blue boomslang. The fish is good, let me know, I will ship you some sword fish steaks, it is better than beef. The word pure is not the right word to use, natural is better. Did all the different snakes evolve from common ancestors? Most likely, but evolved into very different unique animals. That is a bad argument for if it's right or not.
