Newbie help! Parthenogenesis--or just a TON of slugs all of a sudden? (pic)

Greetings, all. My name is Laura, and I've had Cleo, the run-o-the-mill-regular-variety corn snake, as a classroom pet since she was 2 weeks old. She will be 10 next month.

She has always been kept in isolation, never exposed to any other snakes. Out of nowhere, she laid 5-6 eggs a year ago spring. It completely vexed me, but I likened it to a chicken laying infertile eggs and after keeping the eggs for a little while for the "Ooh, neat!" (and "Ew, neat!") factor in the classroom. Some Googling shocked me as I learned about parthenogenesis. A female kept in isolation her entire life? Check. More common in corns? Check. Huh. Maaybe...but no.

Fast forward to this year. Cleo once again has laid eggs--at first, it was 5-6 eggs in about 2 weeks, like she did last year. However, in the last 24 hours, she has laid an additional 11 eggs...and some are obvious yellow slugs, and some are bright white and make me wonder.

Here she is this evening guarding her "clutch"--you can see some eggs are whiter than others.



She also has refused to eat--she of eternal appetite--for the last 3-4 weeks.

Jussssssssssst in case I am experiencing the lightning strike of parthenogenesis, how do I keep the fertile-looking eggs so they have a chance to hatch? How can I check them to see if they *will* hatch?

I'd get them into some moist sphagnum moss as soon as you can! Candle the eggs to see if there are veins.. if so, keep incubating! That'd be pretty sweet

Has there been a case of parthenogenesis in a cornsnake? It certainly is within the realm of possibility, but I do not know of a known case, in corns. Other species of snake, definitely.

I've had a virgin female lay what everyone insisted were fertile eggs. I incubated them out into the 90 day range before they finally collapsed.

You could candle the eggs. They say that fertile eggs glow pinkly, while infertile eggs glow in a yellowish tone. You might also see veins if they are fertile.

In all likelihood the eggs are infertile but I would definitely try to incubate the white eggs to see what happens!

The white eggs are already a little dry since they are indenting. They will need to be put into a container that can be sealed to keep in the humidity. You can use moist sphagnum moss (wet and then wring out as much water as you can), moist perlite or moist vermiculite. Most of these mediums can be found in hardware or gardening centers just make sure you get then without any additives. When the container is sealed there will be a fine layer of mist on the top or side. If you get droplets it may be a little too moist.

Ideally the eggs should be incubated at 80-84 degrees. At that temp they should hatch in about 60 days if fertile. Cooler temps mean longer incubations and warmer temps may be harmful.

In a few days you can try candling the eggs by putting a bright light up to them in a dark room. You may already be able to see spidery blood vessels along the sides of the egg. If you don't I would try again in a few days. If there are none then the eggs are probably slugs.

She has not eaten because she has been getting ready to lay her eggs. You can try giving her a smaller meal than normal now. She will go into shed again so she may not eat right away.

Good luck.

Excellent tips, thank you. Hubby keeps orchids, so we have some spaghum around here somewhere. If I keep them in a container, Joanne, it sounds like I close the container shut with the lid. Do the eggs not need any sort of air flow?

Also, the funny thing is, I've been wanting to breed her this spring--I mean, how cool a classroom project is that?--but I severely sprained my ankle due to my OTHER hobby, horses, literally the week I wanted to introduce her to a borrowed male.

Now I'm not sure when to try and breed her. Do I give her some time to recover and shed? Or could I attempt to breed right away? Orrrr am I SOL and need to wait until next spring? (BTW, from what I read, I basically just put a male in the cage with her for a few days. Is that correct?)

If nothing else, these likely infertile eggs will be good practice for me in incubating (hopefully) certainly fertile eggs the next time around.

I think you will need to wait till next spring. This was probably her shot for this year.

They get enough air if you open the container about once a week. Towards the end some people air them more often or evn poke small air holes in the container.

She looks to be in pretty good shape so you could try introducing the male to her after her shed. I usually don't leave the snakes together for a few days but some do. I find if they are going to hook up it usually happens fairly quickly. I have had some pairings that like privacy so you may try covering the cages,

Do some reading here on the forums to learn more about breeding. Two excellent books are Kathy Love's Corn Snakes, the Comprehensive Owner's Guide or Don Soderberg's Corn Snakes in Captivity.

Okay, the whiter eggs are now in damp spaghum moss. The three obvious slugs have been tossed.

I see what you mean about a shed coming next--when I moved her off the clutch, I could see her belly scales had the milky white pre-shed coloration. I'll wait until after she sheds to attempt to feed her, then perhaps set her up on a date. Bummer if I have to wait an entire year before trying again, but hey, no rush.

I shall definitely spend some time reading here, and those books sound great. The corn snake books I have in my classroom have been destroyed after years of kid-use. (And that's a good thing.)

Nanci said:

Has there been a case of parthenogenesis in a cornsnake? It certainly is within the realm of possibility, but I do not know of a known case, in corns. Other species of snake, definitely.

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Hey all...long time, no time. Haven't posted in forever but have been meaning to well...forever!

I have searched threads for evidence of a true 100% virgin birth and haven't seen anything in the threads...but this year I had exactly that!!

I have a female amel stripe het caramel & anery that I produced in 2007 and kept. EVERY year, since 2010 she has laid a small clutch and never once has she been with a male...ever. The first time, I chalked it up as coincidence...after doing it again last year I promised myself I'd watch her close this year. Whereas I never made an egg box for her, and she never refused a meal, I caught her on the day she was laying her eggs once again and I covered what she had laid with damp sphagnum moss while she finished laying the last couple eggs.

I only had what appeared to be 4 or 5 good eggs out of ten, and on Tuesday this week...a pippie!! After emerging, it is a snow stripe (which she could produce)...and by candleling it's tail it looks to certainly be a male. :dancer: I did read a thread that "debated" whether any viable babies born from parthenogenesis would be either all females or males & females so this confirms that males are possible.

Unfortunately, only two other eggs by now had appeared to be still be good but no pippies after several days. I slit them tonight and they were no good, babies partially developed with skeletal/muscle abnormalities. And on another misfortune...the snow stripe that did develop appears to have a mild case of star gazing. Since it appears to be a mild case and since this snow stripe is a "miracle baby" from a miracle momma my wife reeeaaally wants to try to keep it. I have never had any star gazers in my collection, and since the two other eggs that at least matured for a couple of months also produced abnormalities...I have to think these developmental abnormalities stem from the parthenogenesis. Looking forward to any comments. I can post a pic of this little guy after he sheds, and time will tell if he'll be willing to eat, etc...

That's really very interesting! And you're positive that there's absolutely no way she was ever with a male, even if accidentally for a few minutes? I would definitely double check the sex by popping, because I don't think that males would be possible from a true virgin birth, as the female wouldn't have the necessary chromosomes in her system.

Y'all need to keep us updated, that's pretty neat stuff...welcome back John, and welcome to CS Laura; cool way to jump into a forum too

Rather than stargazing, it might be some other non-heritable neurologic problem.

RobbiesCornField said:

That's really very interesting! And you're positive that there's absolutely no way she was ever with a male, even if accidentally for a few minutes? I would definitely double check the sex by popping, because I don't think that males would be possible from a true virgin birth, as the female wouldn't have the necessary chromosomes in her system.

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Yes, 110% never been with a male...not even close for a second. I am in complete care of my collection as far as feeding, caring, breeding, etc. And yep, of course I will pop it after it sheds. I'm not one to bother a new born much until after they've shed. I will definitely update this thread when I have some updates! Btw, the other two undeveloped babies were both amel stripes, but I didn't even attempt to see what sex they were.

Nanci said:

Rather than stargazing, it might be some other non-heritable neurologic problem.

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Yes! Good point. I was thinking the same but you took the words out of my mouth The big test will see if it's willing to eat in the upcoming weeks.

Here is an article on parthenogenesis where is says that usually they are all male as the female carries the different chromosomes ZW and the males are ZZ. The offspring of this one female are the first known viable WWs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_9139000/9139971.stm

Pugsley said:

Here is an article on parthenogenesis where is says that usually they are all male as the female carries the different chromosomes ZW and the males are ZZ. The offspring of this one female are the first known viable WWs.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_9139000/9139971.stm

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Huh! That's fascinating! I forgot that in reptiles the chromosomal difference was on the female, unlike in humans and other mammals. I've been out of biology classes for too long. :dunce:

That's some really interested stuff!! Keep us updated!!

Well...little dude finally shed, and I needed to help him shed. And it is a "dude" for sure, he has been popped and confirmed. I put him & a pinkie in a cup and have my fingers crossed he's willing to eat :spinner:

JESUS BABY!

I hatched a chicken named Jesus once...I had a banty hen who was _obsessed_ with sitting on eggs. We'd had a rooster but he had been returned back to his owner months ago. So one day I found a stockpile of about 30 eggs, with the banty hen sitting on them, and I just let her. One day, there she was with baby Jesus!!