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What is Cayenne Fire?
- Thread starter Erza
- Start date
chris68
Arundel Reptiles
crotalis40741
Nanci said put sexy bangs
No, I disagree with the true bloodred element. The genes can be expressed without diffused or masque being present. Red coat is more of a recessive gene where both parents have to carry it to show visual in offspring, the line of red factor I am working with shows in clutches without both parents carrying the gene. (I will say though it did not show as well when charcoal was involved for some reason. I held back two pairs from two different clutches with charcoal to see how results are down the road)
Also I paired red factor with redcoat and it did not mix well. I did not get the dark deep reds I am used to seeing or the red saturation between saddles.
I have a pair that are het cayenne, charcoal and they are stunning. With the cayenne showing thru and them just hets. I can't wait to put the cayenne gene with my red factor to see how that goes. It is a few years down the road now but I will be doing these two breedings to compare results: fire het cayenne, charcoal x same and red factor fire het charcoal x rf amel het charcoal diffused.
Also I paired red factor with redcoat and it did not mix well. I did not get the dark deep reds I am used to seeing or the red saturation between saddles.
I have a pair that are het cayenne, charcoal and they are stunning. With the cayenne showing thru and them just hets. I can't wait to put the cayenne gene with my red factor to see how that goes. It is a few years down the road now but I will be doing these two breedings to compare results: fire het cayenne, charcoal x same and red factor fire het charcoal x rf amel het charcoal diffused.
Chip
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒ&
I've worked with a handful of fires and cayennes, "red mask" seems to be recessive. From Don's site: https://www.cornsnake.net/snakes-fo...tails&flypage=&product_id=544&category_id=235
Kokopelli
Resident Boa Fanatic
"Recessive to wild-type" is still assuming that the origin of the trait is in one simple gene.
Can it be re-created with a pair of hets? as in, two het offsprings bringing 25% visual offspring?
crotalis40741
Nanci said put sexy bangs
I personally don't think it came from bloodred, I could be wrong on that. I will say they are genes that are not fully understood as of yet. I have only been working with red for a few years and am still in the trial and error process. But I do like the results so far. But I am biased I like the gene. Here are two pics one of a normal looking ultramel and one of my rf ultramels.
Attachments
eeji
New member
I keep hearing all these "red-xxxx" morph names being banded about, but are any of them actually proven? If so, how? and how are they inherited?
If they aren't proven, could they be something polygenetic or line bred? Also if they're not proven, how come people are using the names when describing or worse (imo) selling animals when it isn't understood and it *might* just be a very (naturally ocurring) red normal?
There seems to be so many questions I (and others) have about the whole red-xxxx thing and so little concrete information with proper back up.
So, this goes out mainly to the people working with the red 'thing', Can you answer any of these questions? My curiosity needs some satisfaction!
(p.s if this post is out of place on this thread, or seems like it will hijack too much could a mod please split it off?)
If they aren't proven, could they be something polygenetic or line bred? Also if they're not proven, how come people are using the names when describing or worse (imo) selling animals when it isn't understood and it *might* just be a very (naturally ocurring) red normal?
There seems to be so many questions I (and others) have about the whole red-xxxx thing and so little concrete information with proper back up.
So, this goes out mainly to the people working with the red 'thing', Can you answer any of these questions? My curiosity needs some satisfaction!
(p.s if this post is out of place on this thread, or seems like it will hijack too much could a mod please split it off?)
crotalis40741
Nanci said put sexy bangs
I keep hearing all these "red-xxxx" morph names being banded about, but are any of them actually proven? If so, how? and how are they inherited?
If they aren't proven, could they be something polygenetic or line bred? Also if they're not proven, how come people are using the names when describing or worse (imo) selling animals when it isn't understood and it *might* just be a very (naturally ocurring) red normal?
There seems to be so many questions I (and others) have about the whole red-xxxx thing and so little concrete information with proper back up.
So, this goes out mainly to the people working with the red 'thing', Can you answer any of these questions? My curiosity needs some satisfaction!
(p.s if this post is out of place on this thread, or seems like it will hijack too much could a mod please split it off?)
Red coat has been proven to be inherited as a simple recessive gene. Joe Pierce has probably bred more of these than anyone working with that gene. I myself have not bred them other than breeding a homo redcoat to my red factor male. The genes did not go well together at all. Producing offspring that showed NO influence from either gene.
Red factor that I am working with from the breedings I have done is a dominant gene and showing up in F1 when both parents DO NOT carry the gene. As I stated earlier in this thread, when I combined it with charcoal the influence of the gene was drastically reduced. I held back hatchlings to see what it does in F2. In each clutch the influence of the gene is varied among hatchlings.
Cayenne I have not worked with and from the people who have worked with it list their hatchlings as either homo cayenne or het. I have a pair of het cayenne fires that the influence of the gene is showing even in het.
Here is a pic of a beeding I did this year. Red Factor ultramel het diffused, anery X amel, het diffused, lavender. The amel female does not show the gene. And follows are pics of some of her offspring. I have also done breedings with my male to pure hunt club okeetee who herself is only first generation in captivity with no hets at all. And got the influence of the redfactor gene in the resulting offspring.
The offspring are diffused ultramel, ultramel and amel.
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MysticExotics
(formerly NWHeather)
I could be wrong, but it's my understanding that Cayenne Fire is essentially Fire (Amel/Bloodred) with Red Factor. Cinaed is het Cayenne Fire & clearly the Red Factor is visible in him. I paired him with a Coral Snow female & some of the babies are showing RF influence, even after just the first shed.
There is much to be learned about it yet.
There is much to be learned about it yet.
crotalis40741
Nanci said put sexy bangs
It could be, I have not worked with them. I just acquired my first pair. If it is I am way up on my rf whiteout project lol
So a lot of mystery remains. Anyway keep pioneering and I hope it will be more clear or even proven in the future. It is certainly an interesting but mindboggeling project
zorro
Old Guy
I have had the cayenne's from Don for many years and enjoy the heck out of them. I have never tried to solve the mystery of the cayenne "gene". Don (SMR) who founded cayenne also thinks it's the same "red whatever (my words not his)" that makes his sunglows so much more red that most others.
To be honest why bother putting years into these projects (and still have all this just speculation) with people not willing to pay extra for all that time and work. Everyone wants $30 cornsnakes so genetics doesn't matter just look as good as possible for no money.
Cayenne is (to me) the very best looking fires possible!
John
To be honest why bother putting years into these projects (and still have all this just speculation) with people not willing to pay extra for all that time and work. Everyone wants $30 cornsnakes so genetics doesn't matter just look as good as possible for no money.
Cayenne is (to me) the very best looking fires possible!
John
zorro
Old Guy
That's what some are saying but there is no definitive answer. Regardless they stand out as great looking animals and in breeding one to a totally unrelated Amelia type blood (whiteout) have seen the cayenne should through 1st generation.
John
snakepunk
New member
From what I understand-
Redcoat: top layer of red covering the ground, blotches, and often the belly. It is believed to be co-dominate and a key ingredient in champagne snows.
Red-Factor (sometimes called Red-Mask): an extra layer of red in the ground color only that can be stacked through subsequent generations. Found in neons, specters, sunglows, and cayenne fires.
I would also consider both redcoat and red factor to be present in bloodreds.
Redcoat: top layer of red covering the ground, blotches, and often the belly. It is believed to be co-dominate and a key ingredient in champagne snows.
Red-Factor (sometimes called Red-Mask): an extra layer of red in the ground color only that can be stacked through subsequent generations. Found in neons, specters, sunglows, and cayenne fires.
I would also consider both redcoat and red factor to be present in bloodreds.
I am really enjoying this discussion. Thank you everyone who is adding to our knowledge.
From the above, Do you think that red-factor might be what is in some, (all?), salmon animals?
I ask because I have 2 "het salmon ghost" animals that have very pink ground color but inside the saddles I don't see any pink.
From the above, Do you think that red-factor might be what is in some, (all?), salmon animals?
I ask because I have 2 "het salmon ghost" animals that have very pink ground color but inside the saddles I don't see any pink.