T+ Albino

stephen · Dec 21, 2004

amels and t+albinos?
A amelanistic animal is a albino,but a albino is not necessarily amelanistic. In his 1995 book, Bechtel revised his previous definition of albino from (amelanistic) to having absent or deficient melanin.

A t+albino is able to create tyrosinase, and then can accomplish the first two steps of melanin synthesis. But a t+albino is lacking a necessary enzyme for each step,but which enzymeis defective is not specified. So we know what a t+albino is not(it is not t-albino)but we do not know what it is,and there can be different causes.

So it appears to us that there can be t+albinos of the same species with differing appearences.this is all pretty cutting-edge stuff,as there are just recently many kinds of t+albino snakes being identified and there needs to be quite a bit of further experimentation and breeding to be completed before this is known with certainity.

I found this on the web about t+albinos,and wanted to share it with all who may be interested,

HAPPY HOLIDAYS!

robertwallace · Dec 21, 2004

Thanks for the info Stephen

TBurkeIII · Dec 21, 2004

In my fathers collections we carry the only captive bred T+ albino Nicaraguan Boas. They have been successfully bread in some other locality boas but the Nicaraguans i believe are the rarest. They are carriers of the "Null" gene type as opposed to the "leaky' gene type that is seen in the Columbian T+ boas as well as others. The null gene unlike the leaky gene does not EVER produce black pigment. This subject is very interesting. If anyone is interested to see the T+ Nics you can check out our website at www.BurkeReptiles.com there is some info about this subject on there. thanks

Tom Burke III

tat2d1 · Dec 21, 2004

those snow boas look awesome.

Serpwidgets · Dec 22, 2004

There are a LOT of reasons why you might not be able to start your car...

It can be out of gas.
The battery can be dead.
The key is broken off halfway in the ignition and you can't turn the switch.
The ignition switch is faulty.
The starter fuse is blown.
The starter solenoid is broken.
The starter solenoid is missing.
The starter solenoid is seized up.
The starter is seized.
The starter is missing.
There's a bad coil in the starter motor.
The wire going to the starter is bad.
The gear on the starter is stripped.
The spark plugs are covered in gunk and won't spark.
The spark plugs are missing.
The distributor is missing.
The spark plug wires are cut or removed.
The engine is seized.
The pistons have been removed.
The carb is clogged.
There's no engine at all.
I can go on for days, but I think everyone gets the point.

What does this have to do with T+ albinos? It's simply that "T+ albino" means "it is deficient in melanin, and it's not because of a lack of Tyrosinase." There are as many ways for a snake to be deficient in melanin as there are ways for a car to be unstartable.

"T+ albino" is the equivalent of telling someone "my car has gas in it, but I can't start it."

All it does is eliminate one of the many possibilities. Nothing else. There is absolutely nothing special about T+ albinos. I don't get why so many people are obsessed with the idea of finding one. IMO both Lavas and Ultramels easily qualify as T+ albinos, so we already have found two kinds of them.

I'm not reacting specifically to the original post or trying to pick on anyone in particular. (In fact IMO the original post was a good thing as it said what I'm trying to say: that T+ is nothing special.) I just don't get the long-standing myth, or why people act as if we're going to find a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. :shrugs:

TBurkeIII · Dec 22, 2004

i agree with you serp in some ways but i believe that there is always something interesting or intriguing about a rare animal of ANY type, weather it be a snake or lizard etc. but to say that it is nothing special is simply an opinion of yours. i do believe they are special animals. i don't necessarily think aneries are that special in many ways, but they are definately an "ingredient" that can be brought into any project to make some very pretty animals. i have alot of respect for your opinion serp and i took offense on some level with the way you replied to the subject. obviously my primary interest lies within corn snakes, but i put alot of time in the boa morphs as well, and your reply makes me think you have certain "grudge" against them or my opinion. i hope i am reading into this the wrong way. thanks to all else if there is a common interest.

Tom Burke III

Hurley · Dec 22, 2004

I've already typed a novel on this subject elsewhere, so if you don't mind a cut and paste thread from a discussion about "Albino" Bairdi that are hypos, then here ya go. It sums up my thought of the mystical "T+ Albino" name.

Posted by: Hurley at Wed Nov 24 08:38:32 2004 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Of course that snake has "black" in it, just not what you are used to seeing. There is melanin there, just in a reduced amount. Biggest tipoff if that its pupil is black. Black pupils are caused by the melanin lining of the retina at the back of the eye that functions to absorb light to keep light from reflecting and bouncing back forward resulting in double signaling. A non-melanin producing snake will not have black pupils, period. The snake's background also clearly shows that there are melanins there. Melanins give you your browns and blacks, that snake has less pigment, so it's lighter, yes, but there is an amount of melanin there.

T+ albino is a term that has been grossly stretched and skewed to mean so many things that no one can follow it anymore. People seem to think that T+ albino means that it's "reduced in pigment, but not visually an amel". This seems a bit strange to me. By that definition, I'm a T-positive albino, my hair is lighter than black and my eyes are blue showing reduced melanin in the iris. By that definition, hypos at "T+albinos" as well.

If you are Tyrosinase positive, you have the ability to follow through on one of the many steps in the melanin-producing pathway. You can test it with the DOPA test, taking a piece of an albino's skin, adding DOPA (the substrate that Tyrosinase acts on to lead to melanin), and watching for melanin to develop, i.e. looking for black to come in. If you have the enzyme tyrosinase (which almost all morphs do), then you are T+ .

Now, T + albino is a term that designates that the snake is albino, but the mechanism for the albinism is NOT lack of tyrosinase. It could be any other enzyme along the pathway, just not tyrosinase. Whatever the mechanism, the snake should still be albino.

I guess it depends on how pure you are in your definitions. What does albino truely mean? This term as well has been stretched so far that it has lost all meaning except a reduction or loss of some pigment. Honestly, I wish the whole mystical "T + Albino" term would go away. There is not just one "T + Albino", it covers almost as many mutations as "Albino" save 1, the T-Negative Amelanistic. Hypos won't be T- because they do produce melanin, which can't be done without tyrosinase to my knowledge. In the herp community, Albino covers anything that is slightly hypomelanistic through amelanism as long as a DOPA test shows tyrosinase exists.... which how many of the "T+ Albinos" at shows have ever been tested to see that they are T+? (Not that it's really necessary since most people call light hypos "T+ Albinos" and I can about guarantee there is tyrosinase there since they produce some melanin.)

So, I guess in a way, I agree with you Terry. That snake is almost positively T+...there is melanin there. I personally think the term "albino" is a mistake, but I don't use the term anyway since its definition is so stretched that it is practically a non-definer. If you are comfortable calling a specimen with reduction but not absence of a specific pigment "albino", then you are right on, just know that you've reduced the word to practically no meaning covering a huge range of pigmentation. The only thing it excludes is a totally normal melanin producing animal. Everything from slightly reduced to amel with tyrosinase is then encompassed in the term T+ Albino.

People like the term "T+ Albino", it sounds scientific and cool and it sells snakes since everyone strives for the magical T+ Albino. It doesn't really matter to me and I write this just to get people thinking about what the term really means and what it represents, not in a rant tone of voice. That snake is a hypomelanistic by definition of the word. Hypo means reduced (sure, greatly reduced I agree, but not absent) and mela- obviously means melanin, -ism = a condition of. Hypomelanism - a condition of having reduced melanin.

Is it a Tyrosinase Positive animal? Almost certainly. Is it a Tyrosinase Positive Albino? ...depends on how wide you make your definition of albino. I personally remove the need for interpretation and just dump the term altogether. The only place it has value in my life is in differentiating amelanistics by whether or not the enzyme is present.

Great animal, no matter what you call it. I look forward to having some some day.

As always, JMO.

-----
~~~Hurley

And further down the thread:

Posted by: Hurley at Wed Nov 24 18:06:02 2004 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

The thing is this, T+ is not a morph, it's not a look, it's not a color. You can't visually look at an animal and say, "Yep, that's a T+ albino!" T+ /T- is presense or absence of an enzyme that is one step in the long process of producing melanin. If tyrosinase is not present, the animal is amelanistic, no question. All T-'s are amel, but not all amels are T-. You can have an animal that makes normal tyrosinase (is T+ ) but has a problem somewhere else in the cascade (lack of some other enzyme or an alteration in a building block or whatever)and yet ends up looking visually identical to a T- albino.

Since you have to have tyrosinase to make melanin, period, all hypomelanistic animals are "T+ ". So the half of the people saying your snake was T+ are most likely right (although they don't know either, for sure, since no one that I know of has done a DOPA test on these snakes to prove if they have tyrosinase). The half saying your snake are hypomelanistic are also right. It IS. There is melanin there, very little, but it's there. The pupil is black, the faint black markings are visible, not totally absent, melanin is there. It's just markedly reduced by some process.

You saying it's a different line than the hypos tells me that you guys are dealing with 2 different versions of hypomelanism... If they don't breed true, then they are different genes that produce similar effects. If one is lighter than the other, then you have one gene that has a bit more of an effect than the other. I'd also be willing to bet that if you produced an animal homozygous for both forms of hypo that the result would be additive and you'd make an animal lighter than each individual hypo gene alone, but that's a guess. (It could just as easily be that the double morph version looks just like one or the other.)

If you want to call it a T+ albino, great. The other one is, too, most likely. Neither is "THE" T+ albino. That is why I think the term is useless, unless you are defining 2 types of amel, one that has tyrosinase and one that doesn't.

Call them hypo A or hypo B, call them "so and so's" hypo and "another's" hypo, call them "Lemon" and "Banana", call them "Hypo" and "T+", it's all the same. They are two genes that cause reduction of melanin, but not complete absence.

Hurley

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and the snake in question...a hypo looking Bairdi:

Serpwidgets · Dec 22, 2004

To clarify, my point is that being amelanistic is just that, being amelanistic. The exact mechanism behind why it is amelanistic does not make one amelanistic "more special" than any other amelanistic. It does not possess or lack any intrinsic value as a result of which mechanism causes it to be amelanistic.

The term "T+" is a very cool-sounding marketing label, and that is the real value of applying it to any snake. It doesn't communicate anything specific or useful or of scientific value to the buyer, any more than "bloodred" or "motley" or any other morph name. People tend to think that it does, because it is a scientific-sounding name. They are mistaken. Thus the legend of tyrosinase positivity lives on.

ecreipeoj · Dec 22, 2004

I checked this thread out when it was first posted and wanted to wait for the ROAR!

T+ Nic and T+ Colombians are totally cool. You don’t need to add the Albino name to make them that way. I have held three T+ Colombians and they are the most stunning Boas I have ever seen in person. That being said, the T+ name does not make them special. They are a result of a recessive mutant gene. That makes them special. To me they have the same exact look of our Hypo Corn morphs Types A - D.

I just got back into Boas last year and when I first saw a Hypo Boa, AKA Orange Tail and Salmon Boas, I thought that they were very nice light boas, but did not have the LOOK of a Hypo to me. The T+ Boas look like a hypo to me. The Hypo Boas are a co-dominant mutant gene, and the T+ are recessive mutant genes and they are both very cool, but just NAMES for genetic mutant genes.

Each and every Hypo Corn Snake gene type A - D are T+. If you want to put the “Albino” name on them fine, but Hypo and T+ Albino is the same type of critter. We have a T+ Albino Corn Snake that is exactly the same genetically as the Utramels, which we know are a result of a Corn that is Het for Ultra/amel and the fact that Amels and Ultras are alleles located at the same locus. They are just Common Names for recessive mutant genes.

So far each and ever T+ Albino Corn is in fact a Ultra/amel or Ultramel. Which name will prevail? They are the exact same critter genetically. The reason T+ Albinos are not “special” is because it is just a name for a particular mutant gene. For some unknown reason, the name has been used to make something more special than it is. In the Corn World they are an Ultra/amel Corn PERIOD!, so far that is. We could easily discover a mutant corn gene that looks like an Ultramel that has nothing to do with the amel gene. I guarantee it will be called a T+ Albino.

If a new “Hypo” type gene comes along and they are proven to be a Type E, Hypo and we want to call them T+ Albinos for a common name, that will be fine, but they are just another Hypo type gene in a long list of mutant hypo genes. T+ Hypo would be much more correct, but for some reason that just doesn’t make them SPECIAL when in fact they are the same thing.

The Boa World has made the NAME of T+ Albinos out to be something more special than they are. They are just a Hypo type boa. They are extremely rare and extremely cool, but the Name does not make them that way. They could be called Ultra Hypo Boas and would be the same exact same thing genetically, but the mystical properties of the T+ name would be lost for some Damn reason. The T+ Albino Boas are worth every penny they are selling for, due to their recessive Homo mutant gene, not the Common Name that has been applied to them. The Hypo boas are a co-dominant boa and something completely different.

T+ Albino Boas have the same opaque gray color where the black should be as every Hypo type Corn types A - D, Hypo Hondurans, and Hypo Pyros. I am actually very surprised that the Type B (Seinz) Hypo Pyro did not get called a T+ Albino Pyro. They would be the same exact thing genetically, but would automatically be assumed to have some mystical qualities and be more special than they are. I happen to drool over them every time I see them, so they are very special, but only due to their mutant gene.

Using T+ Albino as a name for a Snake is the same exact thing as using Black Albino for an Anerythristic Snake. They are not incorrect depending on your point of view. They are just different ways to put a Common Name label on the same exact recessive mutant gene.

T+ Albinos are T+ Hypos and on and on and why the car doesn‘t start is not known. It will be interesting so see if T+ Nics and T+ Col are compatible genes. So far, there are Hypo, Anery and T+ in both Nics and Col, but nobody has tested them. They are certainly different localities of Boas, but are the genes different as well?

TBurkeIII · Dec 22, 2004

if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck......chances are pretty good i'm calling it a duck

Alias47 · Dec 22, 2004

I have always wondered about the T+ designation...

I didn't know what it meant (although, thanks to Hurley's wonderful description, I do now), but I thought it was odd that they would be representing a morph with a color deficiency with a name that obviously indicates a PROFICIENCY of SOMETHING.

Always thought it seemed suspect (and of course, you should never trust someone trying to sell something), and obviously it is true.
In the world of cornsnakes an Amel is a dime a dozen...but a T+Albino is something special!!LOL...bunch of sales tactic and marketing scamming. Of course the more I talk to people here...the more I realize most people do not have a CLUE about the genetics of cornsnakes (even the ones that they own!) and this tactic would be WELL received by the unenlightened masses.

Serpwidgets · Dec 22, 2004

I looked at the pics of the boas, and it is pretty clear when comparing the Nic "T+" with the Columbian "albino" that the "T+" is not amelanistic but hypomelanistic. (If it were amelanistic, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the two phenotypes. But there is a clear difference.)

The "T+" most definitely produces melanin. You can see it, especially in the "lavender" areas. It--like all other hypos, including the 5 phenotypes known in corns right now--has tyrosinase. If you are going to use a definition of "albino" that includes that snake, then it will also include at least 5 types of corns, and it will also include the hypo/salmon boas, which are all "T+" snakes.

In the world of cornsnakes an Amel is a dime a dozen...but a T+Albino is something special!!LOL...bunch of sales tactic and marketing scamming.

I think a lot of people honestly believe that there is a "special" phenotype out there waiting to be found. The myth probably got started because someone tagged a cool name to a phenotype, and now people in several species are searching for the "same phenotype" so they can tag on the same cool-sounding name. (Which is not how it works, but that's the way they're going about it.) I don't think many people know enough about what it really means, nor do I think the thought process is "hey we can scam people into buying our snakes." IMO it's just a large misunderstanding that turned into a myth, and now when people try to dispel the myth, they are met with resistance because everyone wants their own snakes to be "more special."

I also don't think anyone here is saying that those boas are not interesting or pretty or valuable for what they are. I think Joe put it best:

The T+ Albino Boas are worth every penny they are selling for, due to their recessive Homo mutant gene, not the Common Name that has been applied to them.

ecreipeoj · Dec 23, 2004

TBurkeIII said:
if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck......chances are pretty good i'm calling it a duck

The black areas on a “T+ Albino” Boa have the same appearance as every other recessive hypo gene in all snakes that have been discovered. How does it look like a T+ albino, walks like a T+ Albino, sounds like a T+ Albino......chances are pretty good i'm calling it a T+ Albino. They were always called a Hypo before. An Ultramel looks a great deal more like a “T+ Albino” than a T+ Boa.

It all other instances they are called Hypos. The only difference in the Boa World is that a co-dominant hypo gene was discovered before the “T+Albino”

I have never seen any boa person say that a Hypo Honduran or Hypo Pyro is not a hypo but in fact a T+ Albino. Why is T+ Albino more correct than T+ Hypo or T+ Amelanistic? The thinking that is desired to be instilled in people is that they would be a new Albino gene BUT not quite so we will put a + in there. They are not a T - Hypo. Would a T- Hypo be the same thing as a T+ Albino? They are both made up terms so I guess they could be the same thing.

I am actually surprised that the Honduran people did not call the Hypo Hondurans a T+ Albino. From a marketing stand point, they made a HUGE mistake!

TBurkeIII · Dec 23, 2004

if anyone would like to know where the REAL research has taking place on T+ albinism, it exists at the University of Minnesota and has been taking place since the 1970's. If the existance of T+ albinism is not seen through this research then, i guess my arguement will never be seen. if you have the time or the interest to be sharing your viewpoints on the matter then i suggest you take a look at what the real experts are calling it and why. all others i believe are stating opinion on the matter.

TBurkeIII · Dec 23, 2004

http://www.cbc.umn.edu/iac/facts.htm

stephen · Dec 23, 2004

there ya go!

well joe, I was wondering when you would jump in here, LOL I just was sharing some lit I read off a site! I think you sumed it up perfectly Joe, and i agree with you on the boas , :santa: just got a hypo recently (well maybe they are called t+albino is because they have red or ruby pupils and seem to have the brite colors of a amel). just a thought!

Serpwidgets · Dec 23, 2004

TBurkeIII said:
if anyone would like to know where the REAL research has taking place on T+ albinism, it exists at the University of Minnesota and has been taking place since the 1970's. If the existance of T+ albinism is not seen through this research then, i guess my arguement will never be seen.

Nobody is disputing that there is such a thing as "T+ Albino." There is indeed such a thing.

They are using the term "T+ albino" not as a means to identify a particular mutation, but a very, very general category. Here are the names they use to refer to types of albinism:
OCA1A
OCA1B
Autosomal recessive ocular albinism.
OCA2. P-Gene Related Oculocutaneous Albinism
Brown OCA
Prader-Willi and Angelman Syndrome.
OCA3. TRP1-Related OCA
Hermansky Pudlak Syndrome (HPS)
Chediak-Higashi Syndrome (CHS)
OA1 X-Linked Ocular Albinism
Autosomal Recessive Ocular Albinism (AROA)

The University of Minnesota does not use "tyrosinase positive" as the names of any type of albinos. That page does not support your argument.

Serpwidgets · Dec 23, 2004

Also, note:

In the 1960's, Dr. Carl Witkop developed the hairbulb incubation test to separate pigmenting and non-pigmenting types of OCA and started to use the terms "ty-neg" or "tyrosinase-negative" and "ty-pos" or "tyrosinase-positive" OCA. Freshly plucked hairbulbs from a person with OCA were placed in a solution of tyrosine or dopa (see Pathway above) in a test tube and watched to see if pigment formed in the pigment cells in the hairbulb. If no pigment formed, the test was negative and the diagnosis was ty-neg OCA. If pigment formed in the hairbulb, the test was positive and the diagnosis was ty-pos OCA. Although this simple test showed that there were different types of OCA, subsequent studies have shown that the hairbulb incubation test is not very sensitive and has many false negative and false positive responses. As a result, the hairbulb incubation test is no longer used in the evaluation of an individual with OCA.

A sensitive hairbulb tyrosinase enzyme activity assay was developed in an attempt to improve the specificity of the hairbulb test. Unfortunately, biochemical studies of hairbulb tyrosinase activity also proved to be unreliable and did not have the specificity necessary for accurate diagnosis. The hairbulb tyrosinase assay test is no longer used in the evaluation of an individual with OCA.

The experts you have linked us to do not care if anything is Tyrosinase plus or minus. :sidestep:

ecreipeoj · Dec 23, 2004

Well, since this is the photo section and not the genetics section. STEPHEN!LOL

For those of you that may not have seen some of the Boas that we have been talking about, the first three photos are the T+ Albino Colombians that I have held. They are owned by a friend of mine. When they are born, they look much lighter and the milky gray area where the black was suppose to be has a translucent look to them, just like a Hypo Honduran or Hypo Pyro does as a hatchling. They darken up just like the T+ Boas as the mature. This Trio is about a year old in the photos. These photos, as most photos, do not do them justice. I guess the thing that made them so impressive to me is that they are just so different than the Albino line or Hypo Line of Boas and I had never seen them in person before. For someone like me, who bred my first boas about the same time I bred my first Corn Snakes, but had gotten away from them, they were just awesome.

The next two photos is of an Albino Boa, but this line is called a Coral Boa. I purchased her from the Burkes. The last photo is of my Salmon Boa. I have a hard time seeing the mutant gene, but they are very light and colorful compared to regular phase Colombians. I guess the difference with these, besides they are co-dominant, is that the areas that should be black are just gone. About the only areas that have any black is back on their tails. This guy is an exception, in that he has some black freckles. To me it seems as if the black areas have been replaced with color and of course the over all dark wash is missing as well.

Hurley · Dec 23, 2004

Agreed, it's funny when I went to that site, all the links had already been clicked.

I think the T+ designation DOES have some value, but it's value lies in those animals that are truely amelanistic. It's a wonderful test for differentiating amelanistics that lack melanin due to a lack of functional tyrosinase and those that lack melanin due to some other process. It's kind of redundant, however, in a snake that obviously has some melanin in it. If the pupils aren't red (not ruby, but red), then there is some melanin there and it has to have tyrosinase.

And I think Joe has a good point. No one is disputing that those boas aren't beautiful or that they aren't special or that they aren't different. It's just a shame that their remarkable color is tagged with something that really doesn't mean much and doesn't differentiate them from any other T+ anything. Basically, any snake that has less melanin than a normal is considered "T+ albino" except for one, the T- amelanistic. (You will never find a T- hypo-appearing "albino". If they have melanin at all, they are T+, so doing a DOPA test on them is actually redundant.)

Joe, lovely colors on those guys.

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