T+ Albino

[Serpwidgets]

i just cant for the life of me figure out why you (serp) feel so strongly towards this area and feel the need to be condescending

I am asking you a direct question. You say you have the answer, so answer it. Just because you are mad that I will not let you ignore the question does not mean I am being condescending.

I am not interested in nor will I be distracted by your constant attempts to play "I'm insulted." Any post can be read in any tone. If you want to read my posts in a "condescending" tone of voice then by all means you are welcome to do so.

I can play the same "I'm offended" tactic:

I find it offensive that time after time you continue to tell us you know something that we don't, yet you cannot even begin to explain what that thing is. Instead of directly addressing the topic at hand, you keep trying to turn it into a personal issue.

You say "i am learning like all the rest of us about the T+ issue and the learning hopefully will never stop." No. THAT is offensive. That is the point I've been trying to make the whole time... there are some of us who know enough about the "T+ issue" to know that it is irrelevant and pointless.

"then again it is not my job to try and educate anyone about it either." Right, we are the ones who have something to learn and you don't have time to teach it to us. THAT is offensive.

You claim that "EXTENSIVE studies do exist in the university about this topic it just may take some time and effort to find." and "the bottom line is that there was and is extensive research on this topic to go by." You have not shown one bit of research that has any relevance to the subject. Quit insulting our intelligence by telling us "there is extensive research" and insinuating that we are too stupid to find it.

Yay, I can play the "I'm offended" card, too. Whatever, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Can we quit playing word games and actually discuss the topic at hand?

The question is, "You said that T+ albino does make it easy to know exactly what that animal is genetically. What exactly is that animal, genetically?"

I would appreciate it if you would answer the question instead of continuing to play cheap tactical word games.

 

[TBurkeIII]

How do I know that animals are T+ albino...

As I have stated to you in the chat room and on previous posts, i can not tell you in terms of corn snakes. In other snakes particularly T+ albino nics I ask myself.

Are they producing any black at all.....NO!

Do they even resemble the Hypo form....NO!

Do they resemble the normal form....NO!

Are the characteristics of T+ albinism there....YES!

What are the characteristics of T+ Albinism....Tyrosinase is being produced but is blocked from gaining access to the melanophores. This results in the lavender color where black usually appears with no development of melanin AT ALL>>>EVER!

I will show the pictures again of the snakes I am using as reference...

If you still need reasons why these animals are called T+ albinos...Give someone a call, when I get back from Florida I will be glad to give numbers if you would like.

Once again Happy Holidays

Tom Burke III

 

[Alias47]

Great....so your animals are T+

If there is no melanin...how can you be sure without a DOPA test?

Just because there is "Lavender"? If this IS ABSOLUTELY caused by Tyrosinase, can you please show me the empirical evidence?
I have become VERY interested in this conversation and, although I really do NOT have a very complete genetic education, I am interested in seeing what, exactly, makes a T+ Albino a multi thousands of dollars animal...

Especially considering anything other than an amelanistic animal is ABSOLUTELY Tyrosinase positive...and that even an amelanistic animal MAY be Tyrosinase Positive...sounds like the T+ name pretty much covers ANY boa...at all...whatsoever...including amel...if tested. Sounds to me like a complete and TOTAL marketing scam. Using a completely WORTHLESS and NON-DESCRIPT scientific name IS DEFINITELY marketing related, no matter what you may believe about the very expensive animals that your father owns. T+ decribes every single boa that has any trace amount of melanin and then some percentage of the ones that don't. You cannot tell me that someone didn't use this name to make money off of something less glamourous.

If you believe that there is a very specific look to a "T+ ALBINO"...then maybe you should be the first to coin a new name for them (and up the price a grand a piece) that actually DESCRIBES the animal in question...and not some unproven (in the amels, anyhow), antique, and generalized term that was dredged up out of a 1950's Biology Textbook.

 

[paulh]

Back in the 1970s, Bern Bechtel found that some albinos in California kings, San Diego (I think) gophers, and black rat snakes did not breed true with other albinos of the same species. These were independent mutant genes, not alleles. He was able to do dopa tests and discovered that some of these albinos tested positive and others tested negative. (Citations are in his book about reptile and amphibian variants; the black rat snake info was in the Journal of Heredity back in 1985.) As far as I know, Bechtel originated the terms "tyrosinase positive albino" and "tyrosinase negative albino". Traditionally, geneticists try to give a unique name to each mutant gene, and in those circumstances, giving unique names to two mimic mutant genes, the names were useful. FWIW, Bechtel found an allele of the tyrosinase positive albino mutant gene in the black rat snake that he gave the unique name "caramel".

How the term "T pos albino" metamorphosed in meaning from Bechtel into boas would be strictly a guess on my part. But I agree with everyone who says that the term does not give us any idea of the biochemistry, certainly not in boa constrictors. A couple of years ago, I asked the Barkers if the dopa test had been done on any albino boid. The answer was no. So we do not know whether the Kahl strain of albino or the Sharp strain of albino is tyrosinase negative. It is possible that both are tyrosinase positive.

On the other hand, "T pos albino" has some value as a unique name. Though I think that better names could have been selected. Especially with the "T pos albino" boa constrictors divided into Colombian, Nicaraguan, and Argentine forms.

I would like to know whether the "T pos albino" boa constrictors have been bred to see whether the mutant genes in the three forms are allelic. Also with the Kahl and Sharp strains of albino. I assume that the three mutant genes have all been determined to be recessive to the respective normal allele.

Obligatory corn snake material: Bern Bechtel determined that the amelanistic corn snake is tyrosinase negative.

Happy New Year!

 

[Serpwidgets]

Thank you, Paul. (In my research I dug up an old post where you said the T- black rat snake was allelic to amelanism in cornsnakes.)

This results in the lavender color where black usually appears with no development of melanin AT ALL>>>EVER!

As far as the lavender color, I have to disagree and say that it is melanin. The lack of big bold black markings is not the same as being completely amelanistic. If it is not melanin causing that color, what do you propose is?

What are the characteristics of T+ Albinism....Tyrosinase is being produced but is blocked from gaining access to the melanophores.

The point I've been trying to make is that there are no specific characteristics of T+ albinism. It is even less specific than saying "hypomelanistic."

The forms of T+ in mice that I mentioned are: extreme dilute, chinchilla, himilayan, acromelanic, chichilla mottled, platinum, ruby-eyed dilute, albino-strong, and dark-eyed albinism. (There are plenty more, those are only the ones known at one locus.) There are plenty of phenotypes in that list.

In the forms of human albinism I listed, all of them (which range in phenotype from "you can't tell it from normal" to "near-completely amelanistic") are tyrosinase positive. Those include: OCA1B, AROA, OCA2 (the most common type in the world), Brown OCA, Prader-Willi Syndrome, Angelman Syndrome, OCA3, Hermansky Pudlak Syndrome, Chediak Higashi Syndrome, and OA1. These are caused by mutants at several different loci.

As mentioned, in gopher snakes and black rat snakes, the "T+" form is indistinguishable from the "T-" form.

The point is that the term does not specify a certain locus, a certain defect, a certain gene, a certain mechanism (each of the above is a different mechanism) or even a certain phenotype. (In fact, "hypo" is more specific because it does not include amelanistics.)

 

[stephen]

genetics

well since with all the breeding of snakes and the different variants of results, I dont think anyone knows more than the next guy, with that being said,I stand by the pioneers of cornsnake breeders! I would take advice sooner from a man breeding for over 35 years, than someone that is 35 years old, because I do know one thing, experience comes from trials and isnt nothing that can be learned in books, I have learned that the hard way. I dont beleive that t+albino is a way to up prices , but the best way they can describe these animals! o Ya one more thing happy new year!!! :twoguns:

 

[Serpwidgets]

Many things can be learned by reading. It is the reason that we don't live in caves anymore.

It does not take 35 years to learn what albinism means and what role tyrosinase plays in melanin production.

If you wish to dispute any of the supporting facts then please do.

 

[stephen]

dispute

I am not disputing anything! :shrugs:

 

[Alias47]

I have learned more in 6 months of extensive reading than it appears some people have learned in their lifetime.

 

[TBurkeIII]

i know i am going to get some heat for digging this topic up again but i have been in Key West for 2 weeks and have not been near a computer so hear goes. as i have stated before, my knowledge in the area of T+ Albino extends only to boas. Alias if you would like to ask my father the questions you have asked me you may call him and he will be glad to respond. and with much more knowledge on the topic than me. you may also ask the other people who have them, as i am sure they will also be willing to help you out with the questions you have. and i will never be the one to coin the name for them because they are not mine to name. and by the way you are right all animals are T+ but not all animals are T+ albino!

 

[Alias47]

I don't know if I should even keep this thread alive...but...how do you KNOW for a fact that they are T+ without removing a piece of skin and doing a DOPA test?

 

[TBurkeIII]

DOPA tests are not that accurate

 

[paulh]

I don't know if I should even keep this thread alive...but...how do you KNOW for a fact that they are T+ without removing a piece of skin and doing a DOPA test?

Bechtel determined a number of years ago that amelanistic corn snakes are T-neg. So if a corn has reduced melanin instead of no melanin, it is T-pos. Or if the corn lacks melanin but the mutant gene causing the condition is not an allele of amelanistic, then it is T-pos. And if the snake has reduced melanin and is an allele of amelanistic, it's a T-pos.

IOW, hypomelanistic, lava, sunkissed, ultrahypo, lavender and maybe some others I've forgotten are T-pos.

Standard genetics procedure is to give each mutant gene a unique name. This answers the question as to why your T-pos snake is not the same as my T-pos snake. Because yours is a hypomelanistic and mine is a lavender.

I pity the boa constrictor breeders. They don't even have a T-neg albino. Or rather they have two albinos, and they don't know which is the T-neg albino. For all they know, both could be T-pos. :sidestep:

 

[Alias47]

Bechtel determined a number of years ago that amelanistic corn snakes are T-neg. So if a corn has reduced melanin instead of no melanin, it is T-pos. Or if the corn lacks melanin but the mutant gene causing the condition is not an allele of amelanistic, then it is T-pos. And if the snake has reduced melanin and is an allele of amelanistic, it's a T-pos.

IOW, hypomelanistic, lava, sunkissed, ultrahypo, lavender and maybe some others I've forgotten are T-pos.

Standard genetics procedure is to give each mutant gene a unique name. This answers the question as to why your T-pos snake is not the same as my T-pos snake. Because yours is a hypomelanistic and mine is a lavender.

I pity the boa constrictor breeders. They don't even have a T-neg albino. Or rather they have two albinos, and they don't know which is the T-neg albino. For all they know, both could be T-pos. :sidestep:

Paul...this was directed at the T+ boa people. I understand the genetics behind T+, but it seems the people who sell these animals as something special, when they are untested, do not want to understand what Tyrosinase is and what being a "T+ Albino" amounts to...which is squat. If it is an albino and it truly IS T+, then it is still an ALBINO...just another phase of melanin production is disrupted rather than having no tyrosinase. The fact that it HAS Tyrosinase makes absolutely NO DIFFERENCE because if it IS a TRUE ALBINO it STILL has no melanin. Anything that shows any trace of melanin is 100% Tyrosinase POSITIVE. No doubt about it. I just asked if they had done a DOPA test.

 

[Alias47]

DOPA tests are not that accurate

This is the ONLY way to test for the presence of Tyrosinase, as far as I have found. And if the Tyrosinase IS present, it will show.

If you are getting results that aren't showing a change...maybe you are mistaken about the presence of Tyrosinase.

 

[TBurkeIII]

as i said before the best way to answer the questions everyone has would be to speak directly with the person who deals with them on a day to day basis, if you would like to do so i will give phone numbers to those people. i do not know for sure what tests have been done or will be done in the future. the best information i can give on the subject is limited, all i can do is give information that i am learning or have learned.

 

[sunglow62]

I've bought this cornsnake as a "Albinos T+" but t was the firt time I see this term t+ for cornsnake :nope:

two possibility :
1 - it is a new morph...
2 - it s a generic name for a super hypo morph like ultra, sunkissed, hypo, lava....

but this next pic is interessant ....

what do you think about this ??

 

[martin-bernstein]

OK, to your suggestions.
1) T+ is NOT a new morph. It isn't a morph at all.
2) The term is NOT used to describe what you have called "super hypo morphs" like Lava or Sunkissed (btw these forms of hypo are not Super forms, but distinct recessive genes). However, these morphs are positive for Tyrosinase which is an enzyme responsible in part for melanin production, hence the abreviation "T+" as opposed to "T-" which denotes an animal that lacks Tyrosinase.

As you'll see in this thread, people have different ideas about which morphs T+ is supposed to describe. Someone even suggests that T+ is equivalent to Ultra. I don't know about this, but there are several breeders who have done research on this with their own animals. Ask the breeder you got it from, maybe he is one of those.

 

[chris68]

Looks like a Hypomelanistic corn snake...

 

[paulh]

As you'll see in this thread, people have different ideas about which morphs T+ is supposed to describe. Someone even suggests that T+ is equivalent to Ultra.

I've said that. Here is my logic.

An albino may or may not have melanin. If it has melanin, then there is less melanin than in a normal snake.
Ultra corn snakes have melanin, though less than a normal snake.
Therefore, an ultra corn is a an albino.
Functional tyrosinase is required to make melanin.
Ultra corn snakes have melanin, though less than a normal snake.
Therefore, ultra corn snakes have functional tyrosinase.
A T-neg albino snake has neither functional tyrosinase nor melanin.
A T+ albino snake has functional tyrosinase. It either lacks melanin or has a less than normal amount of melanin.
Therefore ultra corns are T+ albinos.

Normal tyrosinase is the tyrosinase most commonly found in wild snakes. Functional tyrosinase is any tyrosinase version that can produce melanin. Functional tyrosinase includes but is not limited to normal tyrosinase. Ultra corns have functional but abnormal tyrosinase.

The T+ vs T- dichotomy is too simple. In reality, there are multiple unrelated causes for the conditions we lump together as T+ albinos. In part, the above logic is designed to throw the widest possible net for T+ albinos and demonstrate the flaws in the system.