In reference to the 'C' Anerythristics...

Since the thread I posted this in has been closed, I wanted to continue this conversation if any one else is so inclined....

Susan said:

The dark side is very powerful and difficult to resist.

And if you listen to some, ultras and anery Cs are hybrids!

Click to expand...

At least in reference to the 'C' Anerythristics.

This genetic line came from a single animal that I got from a guy and his son who were at the ONLY Birmingham show we have ever attended. This was 1996, I believe. He said he lived in the keys and was visiting the area, had a gravid female corn he said came from the keys and wanted to trade me one of our leopard geckos for it. It was an interesting looking enough corn snake that I accepted the trade.

That animal was gravid and laid a clutch of eggs that season, but I do not think I kept any of them. I had wanted to breed hypomelanism into the Keys line, so the next season, I bred her with one of my hypos. And, of course, kept some of the babies back from that project.

Of course, I didn't breed one of those sons back to her for a few years as they grew and matured, but I don't recall what I bred her with in the interim. So figuring it was probably two or three years later before breeding back one of her sons to her. The hypos that came from breeding the het hypos together were nothing special, so I was about ready to call that project a complete bust. Just happened to have a couple of her sons around, and didn't have anything else special that I wanted to breed the original female with. So what the heck, I bred one of her son's back to her. That's when those first "anerythristic" looking animals appeared. Serendipity at work, yet again. And of course, I had already sold off most of those het hypos (likely carrying this new gene as well) along the line....

At the time, they looked more like Charcoals than anything else, but there was a slight difference to them that became more pronounced with age. And as it turned out, subsequent test breedings proved them to NOT be Charcoal nor 'A' Anerythrism at all. Well that's just ducky! Just what we need, another anerythristic looking gene........

So how "some" can come to the conclusion that the 'C' Anerythristics are a hybrid totally escapes me. Has a new law of nature been created that dictates that new genes can ONLY come from hybrids now? And a corollary of this new law is that creating hybrids naturally creates new genes? Well if that is so, how come we haven't seen that happening in PURPOSELY created hybrids then? There are certainly a number of them around, so please point out those new genes I have somehow become ignorant of over the last several years. What new gene was created by breeding California King to Corn Snake? Or from Bull Snakes x Corn Snake? And certainly Sinaloan Milks x Corn Snakes SHOULD have produced at least one new gene, I would think?

So where are they? Really, I am curious to see this flood of new genes in the corn snake created from this new law of nature that have somehow escaped my notice. Seriously, if that is all it takes to create new genes these days, then maybe I need to take a harder look at this hybridization thing. See what I am missing, eh?

And while you are at it, please tell me when exactly it was that this new law of nature went into effect. I want to know when it was that new genes in the corn snake were readily acceptable as being new genes and then when this law went into effect that changed the rules whereby new genes HAVE to be caused from hybridization. Really, I'm curious to know..........

BTW, I do not believe Susan is of the opinion stated in her quote. But for anyone else who is, well bring on your evidence......

I want to make things clear that when I understood the thinking of some that anery C, ultra and/or possibly dilute are a result of hybridization, I am referring to crosses made with other ratsnake species/subspecies, such as black rats, grey rats and yellow rats. The use of kingsnakes or the like was never insinuated in these theories. In other words, anery C, ultra and/or possubly dilute are to be considered the same as creamsicles and rootbeers.

And I also want to stipulate that I may have heard wrong...but I don't think so. But on the off chance I am mistaken on the thinking of some, I apologize to those people and to Rich for even bring it up.

Okay, here is my humble opinion:
Anery C animals= pure, non-hybrids
Ultras= well.....not sure yet. Haven't voted either way but it seems that there is very conflicting reports of gray rat ancestry and no gray rat ancestry. I'll say this much, I have an adult golddust motley and an adult ultramel motley and they look pretty corn like. Then again I have normals het for ultra or amel and they look a little different. But, alas...no evidence of where they really came from....just what different people say.

My opinion on ultra is the same as Jeff's. I only have one ultra (fairly certain it's not ultramel), and it seems pretty darned corn-like, but there seems to be enough talk about ultra's origins to make me wary.

I don't know if I have an opinion on AneryC because I haven't figured out what's going on with Upper Keys corns. The Keys het AneryCs that I bought from Rich look VERY corn-like, and I don't really see any other influence. The same can be said for my homo AneryC that Carol produced from Rich's line. But I also have an Upper Keys from Carol (she didn't produce him), another from Don S., and a pair of rosy bloods from Bayou Reptiles, and they have a hint of some other kind of rat snake to their look. The non-bloods have clear (yellow) ventrals too, which my "Rich-line" AneryC and hets don't have. If anyone can shed any light on this, I'd appreciate it.

It is very interesting to know the history of where you got them from... thanks for the background. I'd give my eyeteeth to know where those hets you sold before you knew it was something special ended up.
I think there's many people out there who tend to call 'hybrid' to anything new or different, when there is really no way to know for sure.

And now for something completely different....

Yes, I lucked out and ended up with one of these animals from Rich Z carrying the "C" gene and lucked out even more by being able to recover that gene.

Yes, I test bred a known Grey Rat hybrid male with two different corn females and proved that male to be an Ultramel Caramel.

Keep in mind some people are very unhappy that I made my findings public and are retaliating by attacking "Anery C's". After all, my being honest about my findings may caused more doubts about Ultras, so unfortunately some animosity that should have been directed towards me have instead been directed towards some animals I produce. Rich's "Anery C's" included.:shrugs:

carol said:

Yes, I test bred a known Grey Rat hybrid male with two different corn females and proved that male to be an Ultramel Caramel.

Click to expand...

What is the genetic background of that Grey Rat hybrid? I find it difficult to believe that Ultra, Amel, and Caramel (all three unique genetic traits) would have shown up in the same animal spontaneously supplied by the Gray Rat genetic donor unless they had been introduced into the hybrid, at least in part, via the corn genetic donors bred to produce it.

And what was the genetics of the corn snakes it bred to as well?

Honestly, I would be very surprised to discover that the Gray Rat snakes (and/or hybrids with them) are such a bottomless wellspring of new genetic types....... If so, I can see where Gray Rat snakes will be certainly commanding a premium price pretty shortly.... :grin01:

I can't really talk about anery C's, for the simple fact that there are none in the Netherlands. :shrugs:

I do have some ultra-morphs (golddust, ultramel anery, ultramel and a possible ultra) and I can't say they look like grey-rat-hybrids.

I also agree with Rich that a lot of people tend to scream "hybrid" when they see something that is new.

Maybe it's an old thing to you guys, but what about the 'status' of T+ albino's?
I know a thing or two about them, and Marc Bell says they are pure corns, but I have some serious doubts about them (they look more grey-rat-hybrids then ultra's of anery C's if you ask me)

Rich Z said:

What is the genetic background of that Grey Rat hybrid? I find it difficult to believe that Ultra, Amel, and Caramel (all three unique genetic traits) would have shown up in the same animal spontaneously supplied by the Gray Rat genetic donor unless they had been introduced into the hybrid, at least in part, via the corn genetic donors bred to produce it.

And what was the genetics of the corn snakes it bred to as well?

Honestly, I would be very surprised to discover that the Gray Rat snakes (and/or hybrids with them) are such a bottomless wellspring of new genetic types....... If so, I can see where Gray Rat snakes will be certainly commanding a premium price pretty shortly.... :grin01:

Click to expand...

I don't believe traits spontaneously appear when you make hybrids. I also don't believe that Amel, Caramel, and Ultra just happened as a result of the hybridization. I bought the hybrid as a "Hypo Corn X Grey Rat F2". Obviously the Amel and Caramel must have come from the corn since the history of those traits are pretty well documented by reputable people. Since Ultra can be traced back to a breeder that created hybrids and obviously mixed Ultra into them it makes some people uncomfortable, especially since most people can't identify a 75% Corn 25% Grey Rat hybrid. Anyway that conversation has taken place a million times over and I really don't wish to go there again.
Back on topic, I have no intetions of making anyone's mind up regarding Ultras. I just did a test breeding with the hybrid and a Snow Corn as well as an Amber and shared the information. This has put me on some people's black list for whatever reason and I suspect that is the motivation of some of those attacking the "C's".

I suspect a whole lot more info needs to be obtained before anyone can make any assumptions. In the case of your "Hypo Corn X Grey Rat F2", I seriously doubt there are many people who can differentiate Hypo from Ultra, so the possibility would have to exist that the animal may have actually been an Ultra x Grey Rat F2 instead.

I don't see any reason for people to get upset about the facts of this issue. They will be what they will be. If there would be anything at all to get upset about, it would be the original creators of certain cultivars promoting them as something they really were not in the first place. Which, of course, certainly looks like a possibility at this point.

But I do hope that no one truly believes that there are not people in this business who would lie their asses off in order to make a buck.

Thanks.

The truth is that corns and obselata cross breed with eachother in the wild It dont all the time but is is common enuff. I get my info from many feild collectors and hunters. I myself found for what is to belived to be a intergrade in the okeetee many years ago it was a grean rat with orange/red side pattren. being that said and done , it is not that bad in the ultra case. if the gene came from a texas rat or a bairds rat that would be a totaly diffrent story. Both of those dont come in contact with corns

carol said:

Yes, I test bred a known Grey Rat hybrid male with two different corn females and proved that male to be an Ultramel Caramel.

Click to expand...

Carol, btw can I see a pic of that Gray Rat hybrid male? An Ultramel Caramel is the same thing as a GoldDust (which I am sure you know) so such an animal should be readily apparent visually, I would think.

Thanks.

Vinman said:

The truth is that corns and obselata cross breed with eachother in the wild It dont all the time but is is common enuff. I get my info from many feild collectors and hunters. I myself found for what is to belived to be a intergrade in the okeetee many years ago it was a grean rat with orange/red side pattren. being that said and done , it is not that bad in the ultra case. if the gene came from a texas rat or a bairds rat that would be a totaly diffrent story. Both of those dont come in contact with corns

Click to expand...

Many years ago I caught a "greenish" rat snake in South Carolina (pretty close to Pineland, if I remember correctly) that was quite orange in color. It was under a bridge near a park and I didn't realize the coloration until I brought it out into the sunlight. Quite a shock. But nothing about it let me to suspect it was a naturally occuring corn snake hybrid. My thoughts were that it was nothing more than just an unusual color variation in a local population of "greenish" rat snakes. I caught another one a few miles away, again under a bridge, and this one was a dull OD green color.

I have also found black rat snakes when I lived up in Maryland that had noticeable red coloration between the black scales. Again, I doubt these are corn snake hybrids, if for no other reason than these black rat snakes were captured in areas (Harford County, MD) where as far as I know, corn snakes were extremely rare, if present at all. Certainly I never heard of anyone finding any there. Matter of fact corn snakes are considered to be uncommon to the entire state of Maryland, and are generally only found in the southern region of the west side of the Chesapeake and on the Eastern Shore.

As for this "hybridization" thing in general, what are people using as a rule of thumb to come to that conclusion? Body and head shape? Pattern? Color? What?

I have caught enough specimens of various species in the wild to know that there is a WIDE variation in how individuals will appear. I recall black rat snakes in particular in how they would vary considerable. Some had very long tapered heads and others short and blunt. Colors varied from jet, almost blue black to almost brownish black with a distinct pattern. Eastern kings varied from chunky looking things to almost black racer looking in body build. Their colors varied from brownish with white or yellow chains to shiny blue black with brilliant yellow bands. Bands could vary from nearly pinstripe thin to 4 scales or more wide. I have found corns from New Jersey to Miami and Ft. Myers, and points inbetween. They vary tremendously in all aspects depending on where they come from and the local populations that have migrated towards their own specific look.

Heck, for that matter, next time you are in a shopping mall, take a look around you at all the different shapes and sizes human beings come in. Just because a few may look different to you, are they hybrids of some sort?

For that matter no one has really given me a satisfactory definition of what a "species" actually is, much less what a "hybrid" has to be in relation to that definition.

The general definition of a "species" is:

Biology. the major subdivision of a genus or subgenus, regarded as the basic category of biological classification, composed of related individuals that resemble one another, are able to breed among themselves, but are not able to breed with members of another species.

Click to expand...

Emphasis added

So how do corn snakes fit in THAT definition anyway? It has been suitably proven that corns CAN breed with not only different species of snakes but also within completely different GENERA! So what is that telling us?

No, this is not a PRO hybrid rant at all. I'm just trying to figure out what definitions people are using when they point their fingers at something and call it the "boogie man".

Vinman said:

The truth is that corns and obselata cross breed with eachother in the wild It dont all the time but is is common enuff. I get my info from many feild collectors and hunters. I myself found for what is to belived to be a intergrade in the okeetee many years ago it was a grean rat with orange/red side pattren. being that said and done , it is not that bad in the ultra case. if the gene came from a texas rat or a bairds rat that would be a totaly diffrent story. Both of those dont come in contact with corns

Click to expand...

I completely disagree the implication in this post that natural hybrids justify man-made hybrids, but I don't expect to change your mind. HOWEVER, I encourage you to check your range maps. Texas ratsnakes and cornsnakes are sympatric in a part of their mutual ranges.

KJ

To avoid this thread getting further off track with ultras, I'll keep my opinions on that brief. There is no doubt that the originator had some that were ratsnake hybrids. Some people got them. BUT, I'm still convinced the gene was already present in the cornsnake population (whether it is of ratsnake origin or not) before that. These (let's call them pure) ones, I believe were also in his colony - and in other people's colonies. So, many of the ones first sold, but NOT ALL of them, I believe, were hybrids. Why do I believe some were pure (or hybrids long before he got involved)? Well, many people were working with "T+ albinos" concurently. Many of these turned out to be what we call Ultramels today. These, because of the timing, would have had to have LOTS of ratsnake blood in them IF they were hybrids, but they looked like pure corns. Period. So, either some were pure, or F2 ratsnake hybrids look like pure corns and don't spit out ones with strong hybrid markers. I'll go on record as saying I believe that to be impossible. granted, maybe those were natural/man-made hybrids with grey rats, but it was much longer back in the family tree than is possible currently. The so-called originator is a liar no matter which version of the story is true. I don't trust liars. I do trust what I see with my own eyes at least a little bit, though. The facts support this hypothesis, and I've seen nothing to refute it.

Anyway, I'm not really following thios thread too much, but I do want to say my thoughts on the Type C anerythristics. First, congrats to Rich for establishing ANOTHER new cornsnake more. My hat's off to you!

Second, I was one that thought it looked VERY emoryi-like when I first saw it, but that wouldn't in any way explain the simple recessive mode of inheritance. rich alluded to this already, so I won't bother to go into it. I tabled the whole thought into the back of my mind because it didn't really have anything to do with me. At the time, I had a bunch of snakes, but I wasn't breeding most of them. No time, so they just ate and got fat. PLUS, and no offense to anyone, I didn't find them that visually attractive. NO OFFENSE TO ANYONE!

Fast forward temporally.... I saw an image of the albino Type C and the resemblance to a hybrid albino cornxbaird's was uncanny. Amazing coincidence. Well, they are closely related species, so what is so hard to believe that a mutation would make one look like the other? Nothing, right? I agree. I mean, striped bloodred corns look like Everglades ratsnakes, striped ambers kinda look like yellow ratsnakes, anerythristics look like Emory ratsnakes, etc. - and none of these are considered hybrids. Heck, similarities ARE to be expected, right? I believe this to be so. It did get me thinking, though....

I searched for some more images, and the ventral patterns were VERY similar to Baird's - more similar in some to Baird's than to Key Corns. The blotch shape on many of those in the images were more similar to Baird's that conrs, but what really got me was the blotch NUMBERS. They had more body blotches in some images than I'vew ever seen published related to wild corns. Some people have said this is because they have sout Florida corn blood in them, but that idea is somewhat humorous because that would DECREASE the blotch counts and NOT increase it.

BEFORE anyone gets upset, I acknowledge that both of those factors could be coincidence or related to the mutation that causes the color change. heck, that is even LIKELY if this is a pure cornsnake. I am NOT saying it has baird's blood in it.

I am saying it does have some baird's features that make my cerebrum tickle when I think about htese guys, and the origin of them is a little unknown. I don't think the babies Rich produced could have had much "foreign" blood in them that wasn't cornsnake - or he would have noticed it. BUT, isn't it possible those were 1/8 or less "something" that gives them the odd looks today? I believe it is possible WITH CORNSNAKES even if they all look perfectly normal....lol. I'm not sure pure cornsnakes even exist any more in captivity except for odd locale animals. BUT, that is a different thread.

So, in summation, I'll say that Type C Aners do seem to spit out some abnormal looking babies that might be related to the mutation itself OR to possible hybrids way back in the family tree a few generations before Rich bought in to the project, but I can not in good conscience try to claim that I confidently believe that they are hybrids. I am confident that something more is going on than meets the eye of someone with a simple view of this morph.

We are dealing with simple recessives. Alleles from hybrids can be brought into a parent population, but they aren't created just through the act of hybridization. Rich is, once again, correct with that idea.

either way, I'm intrigued about the problem of the Type C aner allele, but it doesn't directly change anything about my life. They are not on my list of "pretty morphs" - SORRY PEOPLE! - but I have been thinking about the idea of getting some for breeding purposes (combining with other morphs, etc.). I would like to see more, though, before making up my mind. If I get one that always makes me think "hybrid' - EVEN IF IT IS NOT - then I will not enjoy owning the animal. That would just be sad. ....especially since I think the evidence that these are definitively hybrids is SO WEAK.

KJ

Rich, here is a link that has quite a few pics of the Grey Rat X Corn Gold Dust from hatchling to adult.

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39626

Rich Z said:

I recall black rat snakes in particular in how they would vary considerable. Some had very long tapered heads and others short and blunt.

Click to expand...

Not to pick a point, but ratsnakes have been shown to have a lot of pneotypic plasticity when it comes to head shape. Diet determines (or at least can determine) the shape of the head, so head shape, at least in ratsnakes, isn't a good indicator of genetics.

Rich Z said:

The general definition of a "species" is:

Click to expand...

Oooooh, why not ask a HARD one now, Rich. Ouch.....lol. Obviously, there are hundreds of definitions for a species. The "term" species is a a square peg and Mother nature only has round holes. Our desire to have black-and-white things doesn't work in the real world. That is why there are hundreds of different definitions for the word "species." Personally, I follow something between the "ecological species concept" and the "biological species concept." The "evolutionary species concept" requires a crystal ball to believe in. We could go on, but it doesn't matter.

Captive situations have very little to do with what makes up or doesn't make up a species. Some things might have an almost identical genetic make-up, but be great species in the wild because of some behavior (like a call in birds) that reproductively isolates them IN NATURE. Even if different species can breed, the resulting offspring, if selection pressure is stronger against them than against the parent species, can be fertile and still not negate the fact that the parents were different species.

Kj

carol said:

Rich, here is a link that has quite a few pics of the Grey Rat X Corn Gold Dust from hatchling to adult.

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39626

Click to expand...

Thanks Carol. Certainly does look like a GoldDust to me. Maybe it was in that thread, but I didn't see it. Where did that Grey Rat x Corn come from?

Reason I ask is because there are certain people who had already been breeding grey rat snakes into corns and that brings up a number of issues. Was the grey rat a *pure* grey rat? Or did it already have corn snake mixing within it? Obviously I believe we know the answer since that grey rat snake used in the pairing (Hypo Corn X Grey Rat) HAD to have Caramel in it's genetic makeup. There is also the strong possibility that the "hypo" could very well have been Ultra instead as well. Since the Grey Rat snake obviously had Caramel in it's mixture all we would have needed would be Amelanism in the mix as well to give you that GoldDust.

Honestly, I believe from pretty much the beginning that Hypo and Ultra were so completely intermixed that Mike Shiver and Mike Falcon probably could not tell them apart and probably greatly influence the confusion with the results they were getting. I remember talking with Mike Shiver about his Ultra Ambers and he was always puzzled about the results he was getting in his breedings. Well no wonder! He had two pretty much identical looking Hypo lines he was working with where one interacted unusually with Amelanism and the other didn't. Lord knows I had my own Ultras here I was breeding to Hypos as well as Hypos het Amelanism that had me scratching my head over.

Unfortunately, I don't think there is any way possible to unravel the genetic trial any longer. Not only is the truth obscured by fading memory, but I do believe the truth has been purposely obscured as well. At this point we really don't know which of the conflicting stories is the truth at all.

One more point about the high blotch count observed in some of the 'C' Anerys... Here's a few pics of some of mine:







Now some Upper Keys examples:





I'm sorry, but maybe it's just my tired old eyes, but I don't see anything at all unusual about the blotch count in these animals, considering the geographical stock they originated from.

Carol, do your 'C's look like mine, or do they average a higher dorsal blotch count.

Further,

KJUN said:

So, in summation, I'll say that Type C Aners do seem to spit out some abnormal looking babies that might be related to the mutation itself OR to possible hybrids way back in the family tree a few generations before Rich bought in to the project, but I can not in good conscience try to claim that I confidently believe that they are hybrids. I am confident that something more is going on than meets the eye of someone with a simple view of this morph.

Click to expand...

As for this comment, well, if I had received a lone sample from a project someone else had been working on, where are all the REST of those 'C' anerythristics that should have been produced by now FROM that project? It still would not explain how ANY project someone had purposely done with hybridization could have produced a new single recessive genetic trait as a byproduct or as a GOAL of that project. If someone is able to produce new recessive genes AT WILL by hybridization or ANY other means, then by all means show me how that is done. :shrugs:

Rich Z said:

Thanks Carol. Certainly does look like a GoldDust to me. Maybe it was in that thread, but I didn't see it. Where did that Grey Rat x Corn come from?

Reason I ask is because there are certain people who had already been breeding grey rat snakes into corns and that brings up a number of issues. Was the grey rat a *pure* grey rat? Or did it already have corn snake mixing within it? Obviously I believe we know the answer since that grey rat snake used in the pairing (Hypo Corn X Grey Rat) HAD to have Caramel in it's genetic makeup. There is also the strong possibility that the "hypo" could very well have been Ultra instead as well. Since the Grey Rat snake obviously had Caramel in it's mixture all we would have needed would be Amelanism in the mix as well to give you that GoldDust.

Honestly, I believe from pretty much the beginning that Hypo and Ultra were so completely intermixed that Mike Shiver and Mike Falcon probably could not tell them apart and probably greatly influence the confusion with the results they were getting. I remember talking with Mike Shiver about his Ultra Ambers and he was always puzzled about the results he was getting in his breedings. Well no wonder! He had two pretty much identical looking Hypo lines he was working with where one interacted unusually with Amelanism and the other didn't. Lord knows I had my own Ultras here I was breeding to Hypos as well as Hypos het Amelanism that had me scratching my head over.

Unfortunately, I don't think there is any way possible to unravel the genetic trial any longer. Not only is the truth obscured by fading memory, but I do believe the truth has been purposely obscured as well. At this point we really don't know which of the conflicting stories is the truth at all.

Click to expand...

what is the big deal if gray rats and corns mostliky intergrade in the wild . Like I have posted many times in the past. What about my beloverd okeetee corns they grow real big and have a more keeled scale than most corn populations . also the F1 hatchlings also feed more redaly on mice less of lizard feeders than most corns. Just like yellow rats