In reference to the 'C' Anerythristics...

[Rich Z]

Dang memory of mine..........

There is one further comment I would like to make about the morphological body structure of these 'C' Anerys. As youngsters they appear pretty normally shaped in every way I can see. But when they get older, males and females, unless you keep them CHUNKY, they seem to develop a high ridged backbone to them. It makes them look like they are starving to death, but it is an oddity that I have noticed. I don't see it in any of the hets, only the full homozygous individuals.

Oh, one other thing. Babies DO seem to have high metabolisms. So maybe they DO just need to be fed more often than my other corns..... :shrugs:

Just a fyi......

 

[Vinman]

As was told to me by bill holstrom at the bronx zoo reptile house the further south you go the higher the saddle count you get in corns. There are also a diffrent in scale count the north and south populations of corns . Where the corns have a break in their range is where the two populations seperate.

I like to add The term anery C is so not correct. There is so much read in those animals I think another name would better sute that gene morph

 

[Vinman]

I completely disagree the implication in this post that natural hybrids justify man-made hybrids, but I don't expect to change your mind. HOWEVER, I encourage you to check your range maps. Texas ratsnakes and cornsnakes are sympatric in a part of their mutual ranges.

KJ

check your range maps again Lindheimerii and guttata do not live in the same range . Nowhere do they overlap only Emoryi overlap with Lindheimerii

 

[KJUN]

I'm sorry, but maybe it's just my tired old eyes, but I don't see anything at all unusual about the blotch count in these animals, considering the geographical stock they originated from.

Your eyes may be tired, but they aren't that old.....lol. Personally, I didn't try to estimate blotch counts on those because they look about right to me, too. The ones I alluded to were just images posted somewhere here on cornsnakes.com OR one of the myriad of other forums .

Maybe they were carol's? I really have no clue who had them, Rich. I'm sorry. I just saw searched the forums and came across a couple different ones on a few threads. I didn't know if that was common of very rare, so I asked in another thread. I gathered from that thread that it wasn't RARE, but it was far from common.

As for this comment, well, if I had received a lone sample from a project someone else had been working on, where are all the REST of those 'C' anerythristics that should have been produced by now FROM that project? It still would not explain how ANY project someone had purposely done with hybridization could have produced a new single recessive genetic trait as a byproduct or as a GOAL of that project. If someone is able to produce new recessive genes AT WILL by hybridization or ANY other means, then by all means show me how that is done. :shrugs:

I know my sentences were long-winded, but I think I pretty much said the same thing above. IF I'm understanding your point, and I admit I might have missed it, Rich. I don't necessarily believe that Type C's are the result of any hybrid project. I think the evidence to say it is a hybrid is weak, as I have already said.

On another side topic, we know people have brought the albino emoryi gene into cornsnakes to make a new morph (same thing with bringing the cornsnake hypo gene into emoryi to make a new morph), and that Jim Kane produced anerythristics from breeding a mex-mex to an alterna (different species), so anything is possible. For example, the founder of the caramel line was het for that trait, right?

THEORETICAL STUFF FOLLOWS (any resemblance to truth is purely accidental): If you would have bred it to a kingsnake, and then bred those F1 jungle corns together, some of them would have been caramel jungles, right? Isn't it possible (even if VERY highly unlikely) that some corn somewhere in history had the Type C trait as a recessive and was bred to a hybrid to producer some hybrids that had the allele. A few generations, you got lucky and matched the right offspring with the right parent. Bingo. This means that the Type C allele has NOTHING to do with the fact that there is a hybrid in the past, but the ones carrying the gene are (diluted hybrids), right?

Now, if the original "other" species was the het carrier and the allele got passed down to cornsnakes then that would be a case where the allele itself was foreign. Aren't albino thayeri a perfect example of this?

 

[KJUN]

check your range maps again Lindheimerii and guttata do not live in the same range . Nowhere do they overlap only Emoryi overlap with Lindheimerii

Why are you ignoring the Florida parishes of Louisiana down well into the Baton Rouge area where cornsnakes and texas ratsnakes are both relatively common? They can be caught while driving the same roads....lol. Trust me - those are texas ratsnakes by appearance AND according to the most commonly accepted range maps.

You are also ignoring "slowinski" that occurs in the middle half and eastern portions of Texas - which are NOT emoryi - that definitely overlap the range of Texas AND Black ratsnakes.

KJ

 

[KJUN]

what is the big deal if gray rats and corns mostliky intergrade in the wild . Like I have posted many times in the past. What about my beloverd okeetee corns they grow real big and have a more keeled scale than most corn populations . also the F1 hatchlings also feed more redaly on mice less of lizard feeders than most corns. Just like yellow rats

Intergrades are natural crosses between different subspecies. What you are describing, common or not, would be a hybrid.

 

[carol]

Carol, do your 'C's look like mine, or do they average a higher dorsal blotch count.

Most of mine look like yours, with a few exceptions. When I first bred the Hypo X Keys female (het "C") from you, I used a Hypo Miami male from Don S and that created the lines of my C's. This Hypo Miami also came from the same lines as the Amel Bandeds. Many animals that come out of my Hypo Miami male and my Amel Banded male have increased saddle count. Funny how over a few years NO ONE ever accused my normals and amels with high saddle count from those two males of being "hybrid". They were more than happy to accept this as a variation due to selective breeding. Throw that count into "C's" and all of a sudden people cry hybrid. Funny, huh? I've brought this up many times when people accuse C's. If you are going to say that the pattern that shows up in mine suggests hybrid, they ought to be pointing the finger at the Hypo Miami background and not the animal that came from you. Of course even though the Hypo Miami is the source of the high saddle count, they attack your line istead of at least following the trail of where the pattern came from. This is what makes me feel that concern over hybridization is hardly the motive in some peoples accusations.
On another note, in my "C" parings I am seeing 1/4 of my animals from certain parings display an extremely high saddle count. It's too early to say anything about it, but it is on about 1/4 of the animals, it is a distinct look with no animals looking "inbetween" the "normal" animals and the extreme high saddle counts. Also, even though all 2.2 animals I use are full siblings, the females will only produce these extreme high saddle counts when paired with a certain male. It looks like it has the possibility of being a simple recessive but I'm a long way off from proving that out. For all I know it could be the way "C" interacts with a recessive trait that is already quite common since I'm also only seeing the extreme high counts in animals homo for "C". It is possible that "C" plus Hypo or Motley or ??? can create a new look. Unfortunately, last year was brutal to me and I had two heat spikes in my snake room. That put a huge crimp on my progress to figuring out what is going on. I seem to be having a better year this year though and two of my high saddle count "C" males have been extremely fertile this year.

 

[carol]

P.S.
I'll try and get that background "trail" on the Rustry Frosted for you soon. It's buried somewhere in the "Ultra Mystery" thread.

 

[KJUN]

I noticed that on the image of the female on a nest box. I just assumed it was an older female that put ALL of her reserves into producing eggs. Your observation IS an interesting one. That must make them coachwhip hybrids, right? LOL. (Just a joke, guys/gals.) Again, perhaps this isn't a pigment mutation, but a metabolic mutation resulting in the color we see??? Do the feces look normally digested? For that matter, does the tail make up normal percentage of the total length??? I don't expect anyone to take time to answer those - they were just rhetorical in nature. More questions than answers, but I fear this will be the case with ALL new morphs in cornsnakes from now until the human race stops breeding snakes.

Dang memory of mine..........

There is one further comment I would like to make about the morphological body structure of these 'C' Anerys. As youngsters they appear pretty normally shaped in every way I can see. But when they get older, males and females, unless you keep them CHUNKY, they seem to develop a high ridged backbone to them. It makes them look like they are starving to death, but it is an oddity that I have noticed. I don't see it in any of the hets, only the full homozygous individuals.

Oh, one other thing. Babies DO seem to have high metabolisms. So maybe they DO just need to be fed more often than my other corns..... :shrugs:

Just a fyi......

 

[Rich Z]

Most of mine look like yours, with a few exceptions. When I first bred the Hypo X Keys female (het "C") from you, I used a Hypo Miami male from Don S and that created the lines of my C's. This Hypo Miami also came from the same lines as the Amel Bandeds. Many animals that come out of my Hypo Miami male and my Amel Banded male have increased saddle count. Funny how over a few years NO ONE ever accused my normals and amels with high saddle count from those two males of being "hybrid". They were more than happy to accept this as a variation due to selective breeding. Throw that count into "C's" and all of a sudden people cry hybrid. Funny, huh? I've brought this up many times when people accuse C's. If you are going to say that the pattern that shows up in mine suggests hybrid, they ought to be pointing the finger at the Hypo Miami background and not the animal that came from you. Of course even though the Hypo Miami is the source of the high saddle count, they attack your line istead of at least following the trail of where the pattern came from. This is what makes me feel that concern over hybridization is hardly the motive in some peoples accusations.

Bingo! Give that girl a cigar! :roflmao:

 

[KJUN]

Many animals that come out of my Hypo Miami male and my Amel Banded male have increased saddle count. Funny how over a few years NO ONE ever accused my normals and amels with high saddle count from those two males of being "hybrid".

You bring up two interesting points there. First, many candycanes were produced by people breeding creamsicles (emoryi blood) to Miami corns. Emoryi have such nice backgrounds, isn't it possible that some of those hybrids made it into the Miami Phase LOOKING lines to improve the grey? Sure, I think that's possible. If so, emoryi DO have higher blotch counts than cornsnakes, and some of my intermontanes have EXTREMELY high blotch counts. I can count them if anyone cares, but i wouldn't be surprised if it approached 60 BODY blotches. It's high, and these are locality animals that look like images and preserved wild specimens. So, perhaps what you are seeing IS the result of the Miami parent, but the extreme is pretty high. (PLUS, the 1/4 ratio implies something recessive is going on....) It could explain some of the variation you see (results differ thanks to outcrossing to different animal stocks). Good point.

Second, hybrid are not, maybe the Type C look makes the blotch count MORE obvious. Sure, high blotch is high blotch, but most keepers aren't that observant. I understand your point that you think it is just retribution on the part of some people, but is it possible that (giving them the benefit of the doubt) that they just didn't NOTICE the high blotch count as much in normally colored individuals? I can see this happening. Remember that I have no clue who started calling this hybrids so strongly, so I can't be construed as trying to defend anyone.

I'm REALLY, REALLY curious about this morph. That's all - nothing more.
:cheers:

 

[Rich Z]

THEORETICAL STUFF FOLLOWS (any resemblance to truth is purely accidental): If you would have bred it to a kingsnake, and then bred those F1 jungle corns together, some of them would have been caramel jungles, right? Isn't it possible (even if VERY highly unlikely) that some corn somewhere in history had the Type C trait as a recessive and was bred to a hybrid to producer some hybrids that had the allele. A few generations, you got lucky and matched the right offspring with the right parent. Bingo. This means that the Type C allele has NOTHING to do with the fact that there is a hybrid in the past, but the ones carrying the gene are (diluted hybrids), right?

Now, if the original "other" species was the het carrier and the allele got passed down to cornsnakes then that would be a case where the allele itself was foreign. Aren't albino thayeri a perfect example of this?

Again, this doesn't address the issue of WHERE ARE THOSE OTHER HOMOZYGOUS animals if the *new* gene actually resulted from a hybrid cross upstream. Certainly the creator of such a project would have produced some of those genetic types by now. Whether they are corns, hybrids, or the other donor species, SOMEONE would have produced animals homozygous for the type 'C' Anerythrism and likely well before I did.

Oh, I get it. This is the result of a Ball Python x Corn Snake hybrid. I guess THAT explains it......... :grin01:

Just for the record, KJ, I am not attacking you at all. This is an interesting engagement of ideas, and I do appreciate your input. Of all the genetic cultivars I have produced, I thought the Caramels were most likely a hybrid since at that time there was a lot of Emoryi crossing taking place. I was as surprised as anyone to discover that it was a single recessive gene, which ruled it out as being an Emoryi cross. Believe me, I DID do a lot of research to determine if there was a single recessive genetic component associated with Emoryi before sticking my neck out claiming it was a new gene.

As for the 'C' Anery, I was surprised as well when it proved to not be type 'A' nor Charcoal. I don't recall if I have bred this line to Caramel or Lavender, so that still remains a remote possibility at this point, that this could be a derivative of one of those existing genes. One which I doubt, but it does deserve mentioning here. The reason I haven't done so is because I feel I have already opened up a pandora's box by breeding these guys to 'A' anerys and Charcoals. I'm reluctant to make things even worse. Plus I just don't think Caramel/'C' anerys and Lavender/'C' anerys will be anything much to look at.... uke01:

 

[Vinman]

Why are you ignoring the Florida parishes of Louisiana down well into the Baton Rouge area where cornsnakes and texas ratsnakes are both relatively common? They can be caught while driving the same roads....lol. Trust me - those are texas ratsnakes by appearance AND according to the most commonly accepted range maps.

You are also ignoring "slowinski" that occurs in the middle half and eastern portions of Texas - which are NOT emoryi - that definitely overlap the range of Texas AND Black ratsnakes.

KJ[/QUOTE


I'm not innoring anything the places you are talking about are not where pure guttata come from . Slowinski is not guttata. Because of the Mississippi river moving right to left over time back and forth has intermingled many herps like P ruventhi has bull in it in many diffrent degrees. There is a small population that is pure, Gentic testing has been all over their range and only a small remote population has beed found. What makes you think that corns arwe any diffrent. Where pure corns are found the texas rat is not found it go too far north to intergrade with pure guttata.

 

[carol]

You bring up two interesting points there. First, many candycanes were produced by people breeding creamsicles (emoryi blood) to Miami corns. Emoryi have such nice backgrounds, isn't it possible that some of those hybrids made it into the Miami Phase LOOKING lines to improve the grey? Sure, I think that's possible. If so, emoryi DO have higher blotch counts than cornsnakes, and some of my intermontanes have EXTREMELY high blotch counts. I can count them if anyone cares, but i wouldn't be surprised if it approached 60 BODY blotches. It's high, and these are locality animals that look like images and preserved wild specimens. So, perhaps what you are seeing IS the result of the Miami parent, but the extreme is pretty high. (PLUS, the 1/4 ratio implies something recessive is going on....) It could explain some of the variation you see (results differ thanks to outcrossing to different animal stocks). Good point.

I've addressed this before. How many generations does it take to get animals with deep RED saddles after introducing emoryi? Quite a few, maybe 4 or more generations of breeding that crossed animals back into "pure" animals. How many times have you seen emoryi pattern survive that many generations to the extent that mine mimic? You don't even get F1's that have a count as high as mine and of course F1 animals have never shown the amount of red mine have. Not even close. The very fact that the parent animals have perfectly acceptable saddle count and corn color and look closes the book for me. You simply do not get more markers as you continue to outcross.

 

[KJUN]

Again, this doesn't address the issue of WHERE ARE THOSE OTHER HOMOZYGOUS animals if the *new* gene actually resulted from a hybrid cross upstream. Certainly the creator of such a project would have produced some of those genetic types by now. Whether they are corns, hybrids, or the other donor species, SOMEONE would have produced animals homozygous for the type 'C' Anerythrism and likely well before I did.

Ahhhhhh, I see what you mean. I misunderstood you earlier. I see what you are saying, and I agree with that. Where are the other hets if this allele has been around for a long time (whether pure or not). Unless we assume that all of the other ones ended up with nonbreeders, it is suspicious, isn't it? I certainly can't say this isn't a good point.

Oh, I get it. This is the result of a Ball Python x Corn Snake hybrid. I guess THAT explains it......... :grin01:

I tried hard to think of a "pop-corn-ball" joke to put in my reply, but i'm at a loss.....

Just for the record, KJ, I am not attacking you at all. This is an interesting engagement of ideas, and I do appreciate your input.

I don't feel attacked, Rich. Just the opposite - I'm worried about people thinking I am attacking THEM. When I asked a question about them in another thread, everyone stayed very civil, but I quickly learned that something BAD/RUDE/UNPROFESSIONAL was said to people working with this new morph. I don't know what happened, and I don't think I do want to know exactly what happened. It sounds like something I don't want to muck around in, and I was sorry I even brought up a question a while back. Again, it was via ignorance. My intentions were honestly to seek information.

.....and I am thankful for those, like you & carol, that have provided additional information.

Of all the genetic cultivars I have produced, I thought the Caramels were most likely a hybrid since at that time there was a lot of Emoryi crossing taking place.

I don't really think the caramels are hybrids. I just used that gene as an example because I knew the story of the origin. Perhaps, I should have used Pine Island Aners as an example, instead. By the way, caramel was another morph that didn't wow me, but when combined with motley (and amel motley), my jaw hit the floor. I'm hoping Type C does the same thing when combined with some OTHER mutation. (For example, if carols high blotch count ones turn out to be what all motley Type C Aners look like - EXAMPLE ONLY - then I'll be wanting some bad.....lol. A reproducible high blotch count animal like that would be an awesome thing - PLUS it would show the high blotch count isn't due to a hybrid history, but just the combination of pure cornsnake alleles.

Carol, get to work figuring it out. oke:

KJ

 

[Vinman]

Carol how are your C and rich realted is it through don???

 

[carol]

Carol how are your C and rich realted is it through don???

No. All my C's orginate from a het animal I got from Rich, which I bred to a Hypo Miami from Don and later recovered the gene in F2.

 

[KJUN]

> I'm not innoring anything the places you are talking about are not where pure guttata come from .

Are you saying that corns in the Florida Parishes aren't pure? man, those are hundreds of miles from slowinski and emoryi. Those are as pure as any cornsnakes in MS. Genetics studies even back up this claim.

> Slowinski is not guttata.

That is arguable true, but you still ignored them whern you said ONLY emoryi overlapped with texas ratsnakes. I was just reminding you of this third distinct population.

> Because of the Mississippi river moving right to left over time back and forth has intermingled many herps like P ruventhi has bull in it in many diffrent degrees.

P. ruthveni and P. c. sayi overlap zones have had NOTHING to do with the switch in the MS river. P. ruthveni and P. m. lodingi MIGHT have overlapped at times due to changes in the MS river, but not P. c. sayi.

> Where pure corns are found the texas rat is not found it go too far north to intergrade with pure guttata.

I don't understand the above sentence. Sorry.

I would love to see something that supports your hypothesis that Florida Parish cornsnakes are anything but pure cornsnakes. Genetically speaking (mDNA and NDNA), it has been shown that ones in the Florida Parish fall out with those in, well, Florida. Morphology supports this claim.

 

[KJUN]

You simply do not get more markers as you continue to outcross.

No, but you do get throwbacks. That's what I was thinking about. (A good example outside of the snake world are cayotes in Louisiana. Red wolves have been gone for about 3 decades, but every once in a while you saee a giant red colored coyote that looks a lot like a red wolf. It's a throwback thanks to just a chance throw of the genetic dice. It happens (and those canines are very pretty.....lol).
KJ

 

[divapixie]

WOW. I've read all the posts in thie thread and many in the thread previous that the original quote comes from and there seems to be a lot of opinion and controversy on this topic. Its fascinating to me to see how everyone thinks about this subject and its great to see some very passionate snake people... however.... that being said....

I have to wonder this... what does all this mean to you each as individuals? Because the way some of you carry on about these genetic issues the more I wonder about other things... I certainly don't want to point fingers and say "You're WRONG and I'm RIGHT!" but I do want to say... discuss is awesome... but don't cross the line into mudslinging... I have thouroughly enjoyed reading this debate. I hope to gain useful information from it... just wnated to also say be careful. Hope I haven't offended and if I have I'm sorry. :sidestep: