Het for Caramel

I've heard several people now say that they can see noticeable differences in those corns that are het for Caramel compared to others that are not het for this gene. So with that in mind, I've been paying attention to some of my animals to see if there really is something to this.

So with that in mind, which one of the two corns in this photo would you say is het for Caramel?

the one on the right.

This newby agree with the above!!

Well, IMO, the het caramel theory is a fairly good one...but it is not a 100% thing. I've proven that in my own collection as I had an amel het caramel (proven) that barely had any yellow on him at all. So with that in mind, IMO, they could both be het caramels or neither could be. The one on the right (sunglow one) sure has the yellows, but sunglows are kind of like that anyway...lots of yellow in the orange. The one on the left also has some nice yellow (besides the standard yellow along the neck), but is less yellow than many of the known amel het caramels in my own collection.

In other words...I'm not going to play!

uh-hmm, [nudge], Susan . . . I don't think either of those snakes are Amels . . . they both appear to have black eyes on my monitor . . . Unless my monitor is wacky. :shrugs:

I'm going to go with the darker of the two as my choice for het Caramel. The lighter one is kinda freaky, like some kinda hypo thing, Ultra maybe?

If I'm not mistaken Susan is on the right track though in that most discussions I've followed indicate Amels het Caramel are easier to identify. :shrugs:

D80

I had a clutch hatch that the "keeper" was really pretty - very similar to the one on the left. However, as time passed, a clutchmate turned out to have far more yellow - saturated with it.
Both were het for caramel and looked very different.
Its hard to tell. I guess if a corn is really really yellow, its a safe guess that caramel may be there somewhere, but its not for sure, at all.

Well...I'm the first to admit that I am absolutely horrible at this sort of thing, but that rarely stops me from having an opinion...

I also think the eyes are too dark to be amel. But I see a TON of yellowing near the ventral scutes on BOTH snakes, so I'm gonna go out on a limb and call them both Hypo het. caramel...

It is the one on the left . I cant say 100% but that's what a lot of my hets for Amber look like, that are pure Rich Z. stock the ones from the old orginal amber line to some of other morphs that are old Rich Z. stock. I have seen some hypo's that were het for bloodred and amber that were bright orange, that I got off rich

Rich Z said:

So with that in mind, which one of the two corns in this photo would you say is het for Caramel?

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The darker one with all of the yellow. I have on 06 amel het caramel that's going to be very similar. Much yellower than a normal amel.

I wait for the first person that can determine the het. Caramel in Normal X Normal het. Caramel.
I am absolutely sure, that an excact result on maybe 15 hatchlings will be nothing more that very, very good luck.

Rich, if you send them to me I'll test breed 'em for you :sidestep: :grin01:

Drizzt80 said:

uh-hmm, [nudge], Susan . . . I don't think either of those snakes are Amels . . . they both appear to have black eyes on my monitor . . . Unless my monitor is wacky. :shrugs:

I'm going to go with the darker of the two as my choice for het Caramel. The lighter one is kinda freaky, like some kinda hypo thing, Ultra maybe?

If I'm not mistaken Susan is on the right track though in that most discussions I've followed indicate Amels het Caramel are easier to identify. :shrugs:

D80

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You're right Brent! My old eyes sure aren't what they used to be, especially after spending about 3 hours glued to an ancient computer at work entering invoices. And to be honest, I never even looked at the yes of those snakes. I just saw all the orange and assumed amel...me bad! So if they're normals, hypos or something else, my thoughts still stand...they may or may not be het caramel, but I would say they sure could be!

I'm going with the one on the left too... The one on the right looks like a fairly standard hypo.

Not sure?

I'm not going to guess either, because that's just what it would be. I did notice that the het butters I had last summer compaired to my other amels hat a lot lighter heads on them, some almost white. I don't know if that is really a het trait or not, but just what I observed.

diamondlil said:

Rich, if you send them to me I'll test breed 'em for you :sidestep: :grin01:

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Well if you were to breed them together, you would get some possibly interesting (and maybe confusing) results, I think, if I didn't tell you the genetic makeup. Because BOTH of those animals are the results of breeding Amber x Charcoal Ghost. The male is the one with the deep orange coloration on the right, and the female is the one with the gray look to her, on the left.

Interestingly enough, the entire clutch turned out that way. A SHARP dividing line between what the males and females look like.

So BOTH of those animals are Hypos het for Caramel and Charcoal.

Rich Z said:

Well if you were to breed them together, you would get some possibly interesting (and maybe confusing) results, I think, if I didn't tell you the genetic makeup. Because BOTH of those animals are the results of breeding Amber x Charcoal Ghost. The male is the one with the deep orange coloration on the right, and the female is the one with the gray look to her, on the left.

Interestingly enough, the entire clutch turned out that way. A SHARP dividing line between what the males and females look like.

So BOTH of those animals are Hypos het for Caramel and Charcoal.

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Hmm...I'm either better at this than I thought, or lucky...I think lucky .

kocorns said:

I did notice that the het butters I had last summer compaired to my other amels hat a lot lighter heads on them, some almost white. I don't know if that is really a het trait or not, but just what I observed.

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I bred Lavender X Silverqueen and all turned out somehow Miami looking. So, is Miami really a het trait? Or couldn'T it be, that the breeders chose the nice yellow Butters before just like using the nice ones in Miamis. :grin01:

Rich Z said:

Well if you were to breed them together, you would get some possibly interesting (and maybe confusing) results, I think, if I didn't tell you the genetic makeup. Because BOTH of those animals are the results of breeding Amber x Charcoal Ghost. The male is the one with the deep orange coloration on the right, and the female is the one with the gray look to her, on the left.

Interestingly enough, the entire clutch turned out that way. A SHARP dividing line between what the males and females look like.

So BOTH of those animals are Hypos het for Caramel and Charcoal.

Click to expand...

Yah know Rich after reading this thread up until here I was going to suggest they were both het caramels! I had a feeling it might be a trick question.

Menhir said:

I bred Lavender X Silverqueen and all turned out somehow Miami looking. So, is Miami really a het trait? Or couldn'T it be, that the breeders chose the nice yellow Butters before just like using the nice ones in Miamis. :grin01:

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lavenders that came from pensylvana stock are of miami base stock. I forget the breeders name, bought aberent miami stock off Rich Z. This stock is where the bulk of the lavenders came from. I dont know what the base stock of the silver queens is but I bet you it is miami stock . Before the whole ultra thing, Rich Z was working with a lot of miami stock. Rich wanted to do something diffrent. Everybody was working with deep red/orange animals. Rich decied to do something diffrent and work with miami lines. If you know the history of the caramel gene. The orginal animal that carried the caramel gene was a strange looking wild caught miami looking animal. So a lot of Rich Z old stock has a high maimi base stock to it

Vinman said:

lavenders that came from pensylvana stock are of miami base stock. I forget the breeders name, bought aberent miami stock off Rich Z. This stock is where the bulk of the lavenders came from. I dont know what the base stock of the silver queens is but I bet you it is miami stock . Before the whole ultra thing, Rich Z was working with a lot of miami stock. Rich wanted to do something diffrent. Everybody was working with deep red/orange animals. Rich decied to do something diffrent and work with miami lines. If you know the history of the caramel gene. The orginal animal that carried the caramel gene was a strange looking wild caught miami looking animal. So a lot of Rich Z old stock has a high maimi base stock to it

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Yep, that's pretty much true. The ORIGINAL animal that carrier the Lavender gene was captured near a place called Murdock, FL. The exact location is now a strip mall. This animal was pretty "Miami-ish" looking, but perhaps a little bit more reddish orange background color than is typical.

One year I just made a mistake and bred a Miami Phase into my one of my original Lavender (Mocha) het corns. It was a case of my putting a male in with her, and 10 seconds later realizing my mistake, but it was too late. They had hooked up THAT quickly. The resulting offspring were very Miami phase looking, and some had some minor zig-zagging effects of the dorsal blotches. John Albrecht was working on a project to try to enhance the zig-zag/zipper look and bought several of those animals from me. Later on he produced some Lavenders from that stock, and naturally many of them had that zig-zag pattern influence. Many of those went to a guy in Pennsylvania by the name of Dan Thomasco, and from him to a guy in New Jersey named Bob Scott. That is the line of progression to where Tim Rainwater got his stock from.

The Silverqueens originated from Miami phase stock, but I just can't recall how Hypo and Anerythrism got into that line any longer. Curiously enough the best looking "frosted" varieties of the Candy Canes I was producing came out of this line as well. So somehow Amelanism got in there as well. Guess I waited too long to document some things that I did 25+ years ago.

The original source for the Caramel line tended towards the Miami look, but more of a straw colored background. I did note that when I bred Anerythrism into Butter that the resulting offspring were VERY Miami Phase in appearance.