2 female dogs not getting along

[kshannon]

My mom and nieces have two dogs, one is a mix possibly some sort of hound mix Lola and she is the aggressor. They adopted her from the shelter as a puppy, she is over a year old. The other one came from the same shelter as a puppy. I don't think Coco is even a year yet, she is a lab Pitt mix. She has been avoiding Lola, she either hides in the kitchen or she is in her kennel. The beginning of January Lola attacked coco and this time she fought back. Not bad enough they had to go to the vet, but there was punctures on coco and Lola had a scrape over her eye.

We have split them up, coco is at my house and Lola is at their house. Lola started off by being aggressive towards my old dog, so we kept them apart. She got grumpy with my other dog, but nothing serious. The fights start when the other dogs go near me, food and some toys are what have set her off. I love that the pibble mostly went out of her way to avoid a fight!!

We are going to work with a trainer, but I would love to see if anybody else has any suggestions. The trainer did say we did the wright thing by separating them until we got help.

Thanks for any help you guys can give me. I do realize that two female dogs are some of the worst about aggression, I have had a house full of neutered males and no aggression, but two females will get into it.

 

[MegF.]

I'm assuming that both females are spayed since they are rescues. Agression can have many causes but most come from excitement or guarding. Since you say it's when they are around you, food or toys, it's possessiveness. Most aggression cases I go on usually are caused by the dog that's getting attacked, not the other way around. The biggest problem is that Lola was never corrected for aggression back when it started so she has taken leadership position and is "owning" everything in your house including you. If it were me, Lola would be on a leash at all times. Toys would be given strictly when you are there to supervise. Any growling, freezing, direct eye contact etc would receive a leash correction (tug on the leash to stop the behavior) and a sharp hey, no or shsst. Food should also be very structured. No dog goes in another's bowl. No dog eats before getting permission from you. My dogs have no aggression over food because they know that no one will bother them with it. Feeding time is strictly regulated at my house. I'm feeding 4 or more dogs at one time and they all wait to get their food by sitting and looking to me to be released. If Lola is following you around, that should be stopped. Possessive obsession can often be seen in dogs when they follow you everywhere through the house. It's probably good that Lola is at the other house if you are a trigger. Lola needs what's called Nothing in Life is Free (NILIF). She must earn everything. No affection unless she's calm, no going out doors before you do. No coming in doors before you. Enforced down stays during the day. Regulated walks with no wandering, pulling or stopping to sniff etc. You walk, she follows quietly. You release her to go sniff or pee, but otherwise she has to do what you say. She's been allowed to take control for too long and she is correcting the other dogs for "transactions" that she feels are not in their place. SHE owns the toys, SHE owns you, SHE owns the food. Dogs that get in her space or between the things she owns are corrected. Unfortunately, dogs do that with teeth. Good alpha dogs don't have to do that and Lola clearly isn't an Alpha dog, she's only taken the role because no one else has. This makes her uncertain and that leads to her getting overly aggressive. Hopefully you'll have a trainer that understands dog behavior and can help you re-integrate the dogs. Part of the problem is that I'm sure that after the fight the dogs were separated. They never have learned to be in each other's presence without tension. This leads to fights more often. Coco is showing fearful submission which in turn leads to further aggression from Lola....because she can control the situation and two, it's instinctive for dogs to target a weak member of the pack. It's going to take the owners (you, your mom and nieces) to step up and take control of Lola. This will make her feel more secure and reduce the anxiety that leads to the attacks.

 

[kshannon]

Meg, thank you. I will talk to my nieces, they are 12 so they tend to spoil them. They have started walking her to get her some activity. So true about the submissive ones not helping the situation, both coco and my old dog are very submissive. Champ the newest member of my family is more confident and she leaves him alone. Which is good since he is my "pocket" border collie and is only 10lbs.

I know they will do what it takes to get coco home and Lola to respect them as pack leader.

 

[MegF.]

More exercise definitely helps as it reduces the amount of built up energy that can lead to frustration. Structured walking even more so. They learn to bond with you more when they walk. Just as I tell clients, it's not size that matters, it's the energy behind you. That's why so many small dogs can control larger ones so easily. Remaining calm is the big thing. You can't get angry or frustrated as that feeds into an insecure dog's insecurity. Confidence and basically just saying....you will NOT do this anymore and I expect you to act properly type of attitude will usually help dogs come around...sometimes immediately. Hope things come around for you! Dogs do change pretty easily if we can get the owner to change first The dog moves on usually more quickly than the human. We dwell on what happened before, dogs don't. As long as the trigger is not allowed, they will stop the behavior. That's why I like them so much!

 

[DragonsDenSerpents]

I don't have time to write out a detailed response, but two bitches of similar ages sadly are usually prone to fighting and *heavy* fighting. I would think NILIF would exacerbate these issues. There are some wonderful behaviourists on positively.com/forums and I'd suggest posting there. Many have experience with multi-bitch households, both entire and spayed.

 

[DragonsDenSerpents]

Doh, forgot to add; I'm not a huge fan of Victoria Stilwell, but the forum seems to be hers in name only. Emma Judson is a moderator and behaviourist there and I would consult with her or the poster named Nettle (I don't know her name, but she has 20+ years experience as a behaviourist).

 

[MegF.]

We don't know that these are bitches...I assume they are spayed. Most shelters require it by law. I keep multiple females and do rescue so I have multiple males, multiple females at all times. They can and do get along as long as you set rules. Victoria Stilwell is a positive only trainer who only recently even got a dog. She doesn't even keep mulitiple dogs. While much of her training has value and should certainly be used....we are talking about setting boundaries for a dog that has none. I work with them every day. Setting rules and boundaries is no different than setting them for a child. They grow more secure knowing that you have their backs and that they know what to expect. Dogs don't teach each other boundaries using treats..they correct using fair treatment. Warn, correct, get over it. That's how dog's work. Unfortunately, humans teach warn,warn...do nothing...get upset...do nothing....dog does what it wants. NILIF is not harsh, it just sets boundaries for the dog the same way you would with a child who's out of control. My new fosters learn boundaries the minute they come to my home and I have some of the best behaved dogs in the system. They are happy, balanced and well mannered. I get the worst of the worst...fearful (including feral dogs) aggressive (mostly dog but some human) over excited, out of control. They don't fear me, they just go about their lives politiely and that's what we're asking here. We are asking an insecure dog to allow us to lead and not to follow instinct in attacking weak energy. this protects all of them.

 

[kimberleyc]

This is the first time that I can say I 100% agree with what a person says about training, I couldn't have said it any better than Meg! You should find a trainer that is experienced with the issues that you are having, the breeds
of dogs you have, and that uses both positive & negitive training techniques. Also, you most definately can have 2 females together. I breed and also occasionally take in rescues with agression issues and I will board dogs/puppies that I have produced so I can have anywhere from 10-30+ dogs on my property at one time and a lot of them are unaltered. While I do have some females that are not compatible with others that is not a common problem. I find my females typically get along the easiest.

 

[Prattj]

I'm assuming that both females are spayed since they are rescues. Agression can have many causes but most come from excitement or guarding. Since you say it's when they are around you, food or toys, it's possessiveness. Most aggression cases I go on usually are caused by the dog that's getting attacked, not the other way around. The biggest problem is that Lola was never corrected for aggression back when it started so she has taken leadership position and is "owning" everything in your house including you. If it were me, Lola would be on a leash at all times. Toys would be given strictly when you are there to supervise. Any growling, freezing, direct eye contact etc would receive a leash correction (tug on the leash to stop the behavior) and a sharp hey, no or shsst. Food should also be very structured. No dog goes in another's bowl. No dog eats before getting permission from you. My dogs have no aggression over food because they know that no one will bother them with it. Feeding time is strictly regulated at my house. I'm feeding 4 or more dogs at one time and they all wait to get their food by sitting and looking to me to be released. If Lola is following you around, that should be stopped. Possessive obsession can often be seen in dogs when they follow you everywhere through the house. It's probably good that Lola is at the other house if you are a trigger. Lola needs what's called Nothing in Life is Free (NILIF). She must earn everything. No affection unless she's calm, no going out doors before you do. No coming in doors before you. Enforced down stays during the day. Regulated walks with no wandering, pulling or stopping to sniff etc. You walk, she follows quietly. You release her to go sniff or pee, but otherwise she has to do what you say. She's been allowed to take control for too long and she is correcting the other dogs for "transactions" that she feels are not in their place. SHE owns the toys, SHE owns you, SHE owns the food. Dogs that get in her space or between the things she owns are corrected. Unfortunately, dogs do that with teeth. Good alpha dogs don't have to do that and Lola clearly isn't an Alpha dog, she's only taken the role because no one else has. This makes her uncertain and that leads to her getting overly aggressive. Hopefully you'll have a trainer that understands dog behavior and can help you re-integrate the dogs. Part of the problem is that I'm sure that after the fight the dogs were separated. They never have learned to be in each other's presence without tension. This leads to fights more often. Coco is showing fearful submission which in turn leads to further aggression from Lola....because she can control the situation and two, it's instinctive for dogs to target a weak member of the pack. It's going to take the owners (you, your mom and nieces) to step up and take control of Lola. This will make her feel more secure and reduce the anxiety that leads to the attacks.

You literally couldnt have said it better and took the words right out of my mouth. Dogs will try and overcompensate if there owner isnt taking the alpha role. They feel like they have to take the role and protect- so if you take charge and dont put up with any crap and correct everything RIGHT AWAY you should be good. Dogs can also sense the anxiety from you when your in the room. Try not to anticipate a fight just be calm and assertive.

 

[Prattj]

A spray bottle is always a good thing to have handy if you need it. I work at a non kennel doggie daycare and we deal with this stuff all the time. Eventually if they learn the spray bottle means consequences and un unpleasant experience you wont even have to spray them. They will stop by just seeing the spray bottle.

 

[MegF.]

That or an air horn will break up a fight pretty quickly...airhorn works better or be good at separating. the few fights I've had here I've broken up myself but if I had an air horn it would have been easier...never have what you need when you need it Not exactly the fashion statement that I would wear while I'm out shoveling manure! For other behaviors, usually I use a shsst a snap of the fingers or a light touch to the dog. If all else fails, I leash the dog and that way I can use a light lead correction from wherever I am.

 

[kshannon]

They are both spayed, the shelter won't let them leave until they are fixed. I hope to start working with a great trainer, she just had a baby but she has been great.

I have heard positive things in regards to make the dog work for food, affection. I think the kids will do this, they want coco to come home. I am going over there tomorrow so we will start a training program for Lola.

Airborne is a great idea, I will see if I can find something not as loud since my nephew is super sensitive to noise, he is autistic, asberg (I can never spell it, or say it)

Thanks everyone I need all the advice I can get. I have only owned one female, I prefer the boys, all of mine have been all been fixed.

 

[MegF.]

Asperger's syndrome I presume....Most airhorns are fairly loud....because that's the point. You may need to use a regular whistle (like a coach uses not a dog whistle) or the water sprayer. Perhaps allowing your nephew to blow the whistle or the horn so that he can get an idea that he can also control it might help make it more tolerable. Depends upon how much communicating he's capable of. Walking the two dogs together will be an important task to try as well. Pack walks do more to teach the dogs to get along than anything else as it unites them. I walk 4-6 dogs at a time and usually try to put the insecure dog next to my two most confident dogs. They help balance them. You'd want to start with a dog on each side and once they get in the groove, you let them walk on the same side together. This gets them to focus on the walk and not each other. I use it often when I have two dogs that don't really get along with each other.

 

[diamondlil]

My two dogs have typical terrier temperements that can escalate to fights if I don't intervene and stop while they are still in the early stages. I've got a 'Pet Corrector', it's an aerosol that just lets out a big 'SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSh' instead of loud noise like an airhorn. Pretty quickly the dogs have learnt they don't like it so I mostly only pick it up and they stop their posturing or staring contests.
I found it best to use at the very start of the warning signs, as once they are already getting over-aroused on the way to fight it could actually spur them into action.
Mick thinks I'm a genius for spotting the start so quickly, usually he hasn't even seen the subtle postures and change of expressions that mean the dogs are working up to a scrap. So I'd add that really learning their body language is as important as getting a good trainer and whatever intervention you use. He hadn't realised that wagging tails don't mean dogs are happy and was astounded when I told him the back end will wag while the front end is attatched to a foe!

 

[Nanci]

In addition to Meg's advice, I suggest doing a two week shutdown with Lola when she comes home. Pitbull Forum has a ton of nice stickies for all common behaviour problems, which pertain to any breed. There are links to some good reading about NILIF, too.

 

[MegF.]

Good advice both of you. The pet corrector was the other thing I was thinking of but didn't remember the name. It is important that people start learning to read a dog's body language. I know a lot of times when I go to a home to work with a dog the owner says "it came out of no where...there was no reason for it"....oh yes there was...you just missed it. Even the dog just freezing in place or closing a mouth is a sign that it is getting ready. Head high, tail high, sllllooooow wagging of the tail....slight lip curl, eye opened wide....they are all there, we just don't notice sometimes.

 

[kimberleyc]

The airhorn, spray bottle, and pet corrector may not work if the dogs are already in a serious fight. I don't know the severity of your dogs, if it is just a small scuffle that should be sufficient but if it is an all out fight to the death I highly doubt those will work and in that case it is extremely important that you learn how to safely split up a fight. It is American Bulldogs and APBT's that I have and neither of those breeds were originally bred to be dog friendly. While the majority of my dogs are fine with each other there have been a few times when a big fight has happened and no loud noise, spray bottle, or spraying with the hose was going to break it up. It is extremely important to stay calm when this happens (easier said then done, I know). It is also important not to rip the dogs off eachother when they have ahold of one another as that will cause injury. Now the next important thing is to not keep the dogs apart right after a fight. They need to learn to be calm around one another and if you separate them after a fight they will never experience that calm after the fight.
As one of the above people mentioned, it is best if you can see the fight coming before it happens. Then you can correct the behaviour before it escalates into something more serious. If you can learn to read the dogs then you can correct them with a pet corrector right away and that should be good. But just a word of caution, a lot of dogs become immune to the pet correctors pretty fast.
I am also curious, are your dogs getting adequate exercise and mental stimulation? Making sure there needs are met can make a huge difference and the majority of house pets are not getting what they really need. Your one dog is a pit mix, they require a lot of exercise daily to keep them content otherwise they will have a lot of pent up energy. My dogs need a minimum of 2 hours of high activity exercise daily to keep them happy. A slow paced walk for 30 minutes or an hour will not come even close to meeting their exercise requirements.

 

[kshannon]

They have learned the signs that the dogs are about to fight. They usually pretty good at getting it stopped before it started. This last time they were not able to get it stopped it esculated so fast.

A trainer that I trust said that we did the correct thing seperating them until we can work on Lola's behaviour issues. We do not want the puppy (who is at the receiving end) to also become aggressive, so we moved her to my house with my old dog and my puppy who is her best friend. I have been working on her behavior and when it isn't raining taking them on a mile long walk if not longer, need to drive it. She is happy at my house and she doesn't have to hide and try to avoid her grumpy sister. I am glad we did this for Coco's sake, it isn't fair for her to become so stressed.

I am going to look for the pet corrector on Amazon tonight, I am also going to talk to the kids about really working with Lola. She needs to learn nothing is free and that they are in charge!

Once again, thank you for the advice! I may not respond wright away i am reading all the great ideas that keep coming in! It is important to try everything to get Coco back into the house. These kids have been through so much in their young life that the animals are their safety net and their therapy! If we can't get her back home then she will have a home with me and will still be part of the kids life.

 

[MegF.]

Separating was the right thing for now, but you do need to know how to correct the fighting and create calmness in each other's presence at some point. A mile walk is fine, but for me, a mile gets walked in 15 minutes. My dogs walk at least an hour and that equates to at least 4 miles. A mile wouldn't even warm up my dogs! Keep working at it and hopefully everything will get sorted out and the dogs back together.