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300g YEARLING??

that's very interesting. Obviously the feeding plan has been changed or adapted over a period of time. The copy I have looks nothing like that one. It does seem too aggressive to suit me. Rufus is on weekly feedings (7 days) and probably at some point I'll carry that out to 10 days or even 14, but that probably won't be for another year.
 
Karl_Mcknight said:
that's very interesting. Obviously the feeding plan has been changed or adapted over a period of time. The copy I have looks nothing like that one. It does seem too aggressive to suit me. Rufus is on weekly feedings (7 days) and probably at some point I'll carry that out to 10 days or even 14, but that probably won't be for another year.
Click to expand...

Yes, because it is a guideline many have modified it and posted their versions. Maybe it should be called the Munson Feeding Guide, and when the Munson Plan is modified those who post it should probably say it's their modified version.

Now that I found this, I know that Dean himself modified the plan a little at least once, because I know my copy was of a Roy Munson post. I just wish I could find that one now to prove it.

It is so interesting to read the guidance Dean gave with it back in 2006. I keep searching, but when someone has over 14,000 posts it's difficult to find a particular post (just on this forum). I have no idea if he posted it elsewhere.

It is too aggressive for me, too. That's even the first version I posted, no less what I think is the earlier one that I linked to. Based on years of shared and collective wisdom here, I believe it is healthier for the snake to go a little more slowly.
 
Okay, for your reading pleasure. These may not be in chronological order, and I'm sure I didn't find them all; but here's more instances of the Munson Plan posted on this forum by Dean. Reading the threads is interesting though these are only post links. There is a link to the thread when you go to the post:

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=431295&postcount=2

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=424557&postcount=22

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=421111&postcount=6

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=417454&postcount=16

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=404934&postcount=8
 
Man, Dean fed even more aggressively than I do. From a post in 2005:

Roy Munson said:
I don't hold fast to anyone's recommendations for feeding frequency. Pinkies aren't that nutritious, and if temps are right, a baby digests one in very little time. General guidelines are nice, but every snake is different, and every keeper's conditions are unique. For my hatchlings feeding on small pinks, I feed them every third day. If they're eating one large pinky, or two small ones, I feed every fourth day. When they're up to fuzzies and then hoppers, I feed every fifth day. Skinny adults and yearlings get an appropriately sized (weaned or adult) mouse every fifth or sixth day depending on the snake. Healthy adult snakes get one adult mouse every seventh day. I don't get regurges, and all my snakes seem to be in perfect health. Growth is steady, but not explosive (although the transition to nice, fat fuzzies seems to spike growth).

I've had better results from feeding single prey items more frequently rather than multiple prey items less frequently. You end up getting a feel for it after awhile. At first, heed the experts' recommendations, then tweak them to suit your unique animals and conditions later. Best of luck!

-Dean
Click to expand...

I've been slowly modifying Dean's feeding guide based on my observations at work and with my own hatchling. I'm sure I'll make quite a few more adjustments, particularly for reptilink weights (assuming I can ever get ahold of some...), but here is my first draft of the Wind Serpents feeding plan:

Day-old pink (1-2g) every 4 days (Snake = 4-10g)
Small pink (2-3g) every 4 days (Snake = 11-15g)
Medium/large pink (3-4g) every 4 days (Snake = 16-23g)
Peach fuzzy (4-5g) every 5 days (Snake = 24-30g)
Fuzzy (5-8g) every 5 days (Snake = 30-50g)
Hopper (8-10g) every 6 days (Snake = 50-100g)
Weaned/small mouse (10-14g) every 7 days (Snake = 100-175g)
Medium mouse (15-19g) every 7 days (Snake = 175-200g)
Large mouse (20-29g) every 7 days (Snake = 200-300g)
Large mouse (20-29g) every 10-14 days (Snake = 300g+) (~7 days for females out of brumation)

I don't really like the double pink thing since pinkies are rather nutritionally deplete, though I've been feeding double pinks for a while now just to make up for the small prey size currently available to me. With Reptilinks (aside from casing) each link is equivalent gram-for-gram, so I will likely end up being able to feed multiple smaller links with less of a hit to growth rates. The micro and mini links especially might make slower transitions possible. I'm hoping I can find a way to calculate a buying plan for the average corn snake so that no links go to waste, but I suspect that will take a few years of experience feeding them to really be accurate.
 
Haight said:
According to the munson plan that I read he should be getting a hopper every 5-6 days until 91g. At 4 days he is constantly out and about "hunting". I don't think I am feeding him aggressively.
Click to expand...

While I LOVED Dean his plans WAS pretty agressive. His snakes did reach 300 grams at the year or two mark, but he also had unexpected deaths. He unfortunately burned out on snakes pretty quickly, never to be seen on the forums again. :awcrap:

Not exactly sure if I'd call Dean's plan Power feeding, but it's kind of close/ on the edge. Power feeding is more unnatural for a snake than underfeeding and can significantly shorten their life span.

I'd say by the time they're on hoppers you should probably be more on the 6 day range, then edging towards once a week.
 
I'm not sure why pinkies are considered not that nutritious. They provide what a hatchling needs to flourish. Pinkies have a higher water content which I believe is a necessity for hydration with hatchlings. Pinkies also have a higher crude protein % and a lower crude fat % than fuzzies, hoppers, adults which is more important for immediate growth than building energy reserves. As a pinky matures into a fuzzy the crude protein % drops and the crude fat % increases. As an adult the mouse's crude protein % increase slows and the crude fat % drops. Makes sense if you think about the activity of a mouse during growth.
As a snake matures and starts taking larger grey with higher crude fat % then the snake starts building fat reserves themselves contributing to faster weight gain.
My bottom line with all that said is pinkies are the perfect food item for a hatchling snake so it cannot be considered nutritionally inadequate. :)

The "Munson Plan" and any others similar are to aggressive IMO. Plus one factor that plays into a feeding schedule is timing with the keepers schedule.
I have raised baby birds and mammals where their survival is dependent on a very strict hourly feeding schedule so it is nice to know we have options with snakes that still promote health and growth.
 
My intervals are 5 days for pinks, double pinks and small fuzzies. I go to 6 days at large fuzzies. That's as far as I have gotten so far and may well modify that slightly for different individuals.

I also skip feeding while in shed. I see that in one of his posts, Dean mentions skipping a random feeding. My skips are not random, but there are skips nonetheless.

I have pushed feeding back by a day when I wasn't feeling well. Like Heather, I also will push feeding back a day or so in a storm situation in case we lose power (very rare around here). I do keep some of those shipping type 40 hour hot packs on hand just in case of emergency.

When you read Dean's actual posts you see even he says he doesn't always stick exactly to it and increases the intervals. I always knew it was just a guide. Each person still needs to use their own judgement. That's why I believe that weighing and looking at the crossection of the snake, prey size relative to girth, prey bulge, and digestion speed should never be discarded in favor of The Plan. The Munson Plan is a tool, not a rule.
 
daddio207 said:
The "Munson Plan" and any others similar are to aggressive IMO. Plus one factor that plays into a feeding schedule is timing with the keepers schedule.
I have raised baby birds and mammals where their survival is dependent on a very strict hourly feeding schedule so it is nice to know we have options with snakes that still promote health and growth.
Click to expand...

:cheers:

Yes and yes again!
 
daddio207 said:
I'm not sure why pinkies are considered not that nutritious. They provide what a hatchling needs to flourish. Pinkies have a higher water content which I believe is a necessity for hydration with hatchlings. Pinkies also have a higher crude protein % and a lower crude fat % than fuzzies, hoppers, adults which is more important for immediate growth than building energy reserves. As a pinky matures into a fuzzy the crude protein % drops and the crude fat % increases. As an adult the mouse's crude protein % increase slows and the crude fat % drops. Makes sense if you think about the activity of a mouse during growth.
As a snake matures and starts taking larger grey with higher crude fat % then the snake starts building fat reserves themselves contributing to faster weight gain.
My bottom line with all that said is pinkies are the perfect food item for a hatchling snake so it cannot be considered nutritionally inadequate. :)
Click to expand...

I never said they were inadequate, especially for an appropriately sized hatchling, but I would prefer to continue to feed steadily larger prey than continue with multiple smaller items. Of course, that's sometimes easier said than done. My hatchling seemed nearly stunted for a few weeks while still eating day-olds at 17g, but now that he's on larger pinks he is gaining again. The high water content of pinkies is exactly why the Munson plan encourages double pinks at an equal weight as the subsequent fuzzies, even though the snake would be larger by the time it's eating the latter.
 
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Dragonling said:
I never said they were inadequate, especially for an appropriately sized hatchling, but I would prefer to continue to feed steadily larger prey than continue with multiple smaller items. Of course, that's sometimes easier said than done. My hatchling seemed nearly stunted for a few weeks while still eating day-olds at 17g, but now that he's on larger pinks he is gaining again. The high water content of pinkies is exactly why the Munson plan encourages double pinks at an equal weight as the subsequent fuzzies, even though the snake would be larger by the time it's eating the latter.
Click to expand...

My post was a general response to Roy Munson (Dean) comment that "Pinkies aren't that nutritious" and many other posts through out the years along that line.
You did say "I don't really like the double pink thing since pinkies are rather nutritionally deplete" I'm not even sure what your point was in reference to "nutritionally deplete" so my post was not aimed at you :)
 
Ah, gotcha. :) My mistake.

I still tend to agree with his notion that pinkies really aren't that nutritious. Obviously they are adequate enough, else snakes probably would have died off long ago, but sometimes adequate is all that is required for survival. In the wild, the high water content could even be advantageous for a hatchling not to have to find water sources as often, but our snakes are captive animals with clean little water bowls mere inches away at all times. This is why I'm such a big promoter of reptilinks, and why I think they could potentially promote healthier fast growth in young snakes. When I'm able to breed at home, I plan to grow up several hatchlings from the same clutch, some on mice and some on links, to compare their growth rates and overall well being. Unfortunately that may not be for a few years yet. :(
 
Pinkies aren't that nutritious, namely for one, they lack the calcium.
Pinkies are not the natural diet of hatchling Cornsnakes, lizards are. (That's why some hatchlings are difficult to get started in eating pinkies).
They have been transitioned to pinkies in the pet trade because they are so much easier/more cost effective to obtain.

The goal is to get them growing, and get them onto a more fully developed prey item, that holds more nutrition than a pinky does.
 
I tend not to worry about it. The dorsal ribs and part of the skull and limbs of newborn pinks are already ossified, and there are ossification centers in the vertebrae. The percent calcium by weight of a juvenile mouse is only slightly higher than a pinky neonate.
 
DuxorW said:
I tend not to worry about it. The dorsal ribs and part of the skull and limbs of newborn pinks are already ossified, and there are ossification centers in the vertebrae. The percent calcium by weight of a juvenile mouse is only slightly higher than a pinky neonate.
Click to expand...

I might be thinking of another thread, but I was referring to feeding multiple pinkies to an older snake, vs the appropriate sized prey item for it.

For hatchlings, it is fine, and gets them growing, and you can move them up in size, but feeding pinkies to an adult snake is different. IMO :)
 
MysticExotics said:
I might be thinking of another thread, but I was referring to feeding multiple pinkies to an older snake, vs the appropriate sized prey item for it.

For hatchlings, it is fine, and gets them growing, and you can move them up in size, but feeding pinkies to an adult snake is different. IMO :)
Click to expand...

I agree, I fed 3-4 pinks to a snake that was on hoppers, because I ran out of them and the order hadn't arrived yet. He would have been fine waiting but I fed the pinks anyway. His stool was very runny afterwards. Probably the shock of eating a prey item with higher fat and no hair. But if I run out of fuzzies I don't worry about feeding 2 pinks.
 
MysticExotics said:
For hatchlings, it is fine, and gets them growing
Click to expand...

That was my point ;)

Just for info, (not directed at you, Heather) and thanks to Rodent Pro, An adult mouse has 3 times the calcium content as a % to dry matter than a pinky. That being said it is only 1% vs 3%. Of course it is the prey size (volume) where calcium intake changes dramatically.
 
An adult mouse does, but juveniles 10g or less are 1.5% vs 1.2% for a pinky. I guess I am only addressing how people rush to fuzzies because they think there is significantly more calcium.
 
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