A response to the negative feedback on my setup!

[vertigofm]

Hi, I don't mean this to be defensive- but I want to try to provide my reasoning for my setup and see if others agree with me or not, and perhaps through this we can develop a dialogue that will contribute to our understanding of snake care.

Original post:

"Hi everyone, currently my corns setup is as follows:

20 Gallon tnak

6-8 inches of "Zoo med eco earth compressed coconut fiber": comes in blocks, very moist when water is added to it (which I do for very nice sheds and smooth skin)

UT heater usually at 98 degrees (needs to be hot to warm soil, he adjusts the depth he burrows depending on the temp so it gives him a cool surface and when he eats he burrows more to stay warm)

Simple water bowl

Cave (not needed because he burrows in soil)


Now he loves this setup, he spends most of his time burrowing in the soil, and has some really cool tunnels built in- he goes as deep as he wants and comes up to drink and let me know he's ready to eat. His waste also decomposes great if I miss it because of the soil and the moisture.

But here is the thing- I love this natural setup, he's never seemed happier and healtheir- but I want to go more natural. So aside from this eco soil, I want to add some more variety of soils to replicate a natrual environment, maybe some plants, rocks etc. Any ideas or tips? I'm not ditching the soil because he builds really cool tunnels throughout it, keeps him moist and it regulates heat good because the very hot UT heater gives different depths of soil different temps.

Thanks for help!"


My response:

Thank you, while I understand your concern I want to help alleviate your worries. Herman (snake) is big enough now where he can easily burrow into the soil, I have never seen or encountered any problem with soil in his mouth or nose... But he always comes out of the soil with a clean face, and it seems unlikely to me this will be a problem. With the temperatures, the surface of the glass is roughly 93 F... If you take the temp about 1 inch above the soil it is in the 80's- and he never gets anywhere close to the bottom. Also, I never feed him in the tank, because that does pose a risk of soil entering the mouth (even if it did it would be passed in his feces).

I do want to add my 2 cents. Corn snakes thrive in many different environments: they live in forests, fields, etc... Using sanitary soil (such as what I am using) is far safer than the soil they encounter in the wild. Anytime you own a pet there is a certain amount of risk in everything you do... However there is also an acceptable risk- such as taking your dog out into the woods with you, feeding your ferret a raw diet, etc. But I call these risks acceptable because they fall within the natural stimuli that the species would encounter in the wild. Is it "possible" that my snake could get soil in it's scales? Sure! Just as it is possible that a sharp piece of aspen bedding could get in between a snakes scales... But we are talking about an animal that often lives in the soil! An animal that burrows beneath logs in forest soil which is filled with bacteria, fungi, etc.

So is my setup slightly unconventional? Sure! Has it worked so far? Absolutely! But I feel to "idiot proof" his environment is to almost show a disregard for his species, these are wild animals- not domesticated! With ferrets, cats, dogs... I understand. But with reptiles, my philosophy is generally to replicate a natural environment and allow the animal to adjust and adapt to the environment I have created.

I feel that 6 inches of soil with a 93 degree UT heater under the tank which heats 1 inch above the soil to the 80's- is pretty safe. Furthermore, I feel that soil is probably the most natural and best approach you can use with corn snakes- using other beddings have always given my snake shedding problems and on more then one occasion I have found aspen bedding stuck in his mouth (even though I don't feed him in the cage).

I would encourage you all to try using soil, just try it and you will be amazed at the difference in the sheen of the skin and the ease at which they shed. It will also give you a very cool look into how snakes form tunnels when given a soil to work with, and you will soon find lots of little holes all over your tank.

I promise you if I notice anything different or any dangers I will let you all know and immediately change my setup, but I think we all must have a little faith in nature.

 

[Corny Noob]

I'm just wondering why this necessitated another topic.

 

[diamondlil]

What did you think of the link about bioactive substrate I posted?

 

[Eriathiel]

Honestly I don't know why this needed to be in a different post. I don't disagree with the way you are keeping your snake, but you only got a couple negative responses - and even those were just telling you to be careful.

 

[vertigofm]

Sorry I just thought that rather then get off track on that topic- I'd devote this one to discussion and debate

 

[Nanci]

You'd probably love the book "The Art Of Keeping Snakes" by Philippe De Vosjoli.

 

[susang]

Sorry I just thought that rather then get off track on that topic- I'd devote this one to discussion and debate

Discussion and debate about what, as you had three responses to the other thread one iffy, one negative and one suggested another thread. This entire forum is a debate and discussion, we all don't agree on everything. Once you put out a statment you have to expect both kinds of feedback, you take what part of it you will and go one. You can argue, disagree, give your reasons for anything you do, but if you start a new thread everytime someone disagrees with you, wow.
As for what I have to say about coco fibre, it is either to wet or to dry, it's gets buggy. Also remember this is not about the esthetic look you want, but more what is the snakes best interest. susang

 

[Wylie]

I'm with ya, sounds good to me. I may look into that Zoo med eco earth compressed coconut fiber soil. I just got my snake, so I'm still doing a lot of learning but I'm all for giving the snake a habitat as close to the one he would encounter in the wild.

I understand what you're saying, it's a cost vs risk thing, we take our dogs for walks in the woods with us even though they may get ticks from doing so, just one example, there are always risks, you can't eliminate them all and just like we can't live in a bubble our whole lives to prevent us from getting sick or diseased, in the same respect I think people can sometimes go too far to the extreme in trying to eliminate risks to their pets. My husband for example, did things a lot differently 14 years ago when he had his ball python, things that I would consider very risky to the health of the snake, (like not knowing the temps in the tank), but yet his snake was fine, never got sick or anything like that. I do think that sometimes we underestimate nature and the ability of these snakes to flourish and survive. Like I read in another thread, dude had the temp too warm in his tank, so his snake simply hung out on the tops of the hides instead of in them, when he brought the temp down, the snake went back to the bottom of the hide, so they're not stupid in that sense, they know how to survive even when circumstances aren't the best, they have to, otherwise they wouldn't be here today for us to enjoy.

Thanks for an alternate point of view concerning corn snake housing, I appreciate it.

 

[lil_rab2005]

I totally agree with ya Wylie, I think that they will grow to their surroundings the best way fit, but even if I didn't agree with this person, I try to show respect to others, the respect I expect to be talked to in. Not naming any names but there is alot of people on this forum (whether tryin to get an idea across the best or not without thinking of how they are talkin to the person) that talk with a very negative attitude if they don't like something, not thinking of if this person has any experience or not, but think "well they aren't in front of me so I can talk to them how I like" but they would definitely not talk to their mother or anyone for that matter if the person said the same thing to their face. I don't mean this in disrespect in any way toward anyone but I think that negativity makes people go elsewhere for questions and there are alot of people on this forum that can definitely help with their experiences and knowledge without being negative.

Just my two cents worth...

Lil.

 

[bsr8129]

sounds good to me

 

[zwyatt]

Well, if this was worthy of another topic, then it's worthy of my 2 cents...partly because I never saw the original thread.

Soil is composed of tiny and often microscopic particles. This is much more likely to infiltrate and build up in the scales and then aspen. At best there is some residual dust with aspen, but most of it settles to the bottom of the tank in no time. When a snake moves across aspen or even burrows into it, the natural motion of its body would generally prevent any piece of aspen from getting wedged into the scales. However, when a snake burrows and roots around in soil the body motion doesn't matter because of the tiny, particulate nature of soil. If you walk barefoot on the beach you are going to get sand between your toes. If you walk barefoot across grass it's going to brush against your toes but not get stuck between them.

If the soil in your setup is capable of breaking down waste that quickly then it contains plenty of bacteria and microorganisms that are actually doing the job. Dirt and water don't break things down. Sure snakes encounter bacteria and other things in the wild and even, to a small degree, in aspen-based vivs, but as much as most keepers try to mimic mother nature, one aspect we generally discourage are those that could cause us problems like having a tank full of bacteria.

You can make the "keeping it natural" argument all you want, but you cannot possibly mimic the complexity of a corn's natural habitat. Once they are confined to a tank, you've already lost the battle. Even if you put 20 hides in the tank that doesn't do it. As far as I know, corns do not burrow in nature. Rooting around under a log and using a pre-existing burrow made by another animal does not classify as the same thing that you describe your corn doing. I don't believe for a second that if given a patch of habitat full of trees, logs, grass, and other hiding places that a corn would just take to burrowing into the ground all on its own. Not to mention that soil is often not soft enough for something like a corn to even burrow into it.


I'm not going to tell you to change your setup because I really don't care what you do. You should be capable of judging what you want to do for yourself. And if that's how you want to do it and aren't going to change it, then you don't need to post a threads trying to justify it to any of us. There's generally a reason why, after 30 or 40 years of keeping animals as pets (like corns have been), that a particular viv setup style has been adopted by the majority of keepers. I would argue that it is probably because, over the years and through trial and error, keepers have found it to the be the best option for providing a setup that is as natural as possible and that best ensures health, safety and convenience for everyone involved.

 

[Weebonilass]

I understand what you're saying, it's a cost vs risk thing, we take our dogs for walks in the woods with us even though they may get ticks from doing so, just one example, there are always risks, you can't eliminate them all and just like we can't live in a bubble our whole lives to prevent us from getting sick or diseased, in the same respect I think people can sometimes go too far to the extreme in trying to eliminate risks to their pets. My husband for example, did things a lot differently 14 years ago when he had his ball python, things that I would consider very risky to the health of the snake, (like not knowing the temps in the tank), but yet his snake was fine, never got sick or anything like that. I do think that sometimes we underestimate nature and the ability of these snakes to flourish and survive. Like I read in another thread, dude had the temp too warm in his tank, so his snake simply hung out on the tops of the hides instead of in them, when he brought the temp down, the snake went back to the bottom of the hide, so they're not stupid in that sense, they know how to survive even when circumstances aren't the best, they have to, otherwise they wouldn't be here today for us to enjoy.

Of course, I did a lot of things when I was younger and survived them... just means I was dang lucky not to kill myself.

As for your example of the dog... doesn't quite cut it... your dog isn't living among the ticks 24/7 and hopefully, you've treated him. And you remove any ticks that you might find... Lyme Disease can be fatal.

I've tried the bedding in question because I thought the lighter colour snakes would look better on it. What I found was that it dried out quickly and humidity became a major issues and complete sheds became more iffy. Last summer I tried half/half to see if I could get the humidity up higher since we were having a dry summer. It was more of a pain in the butt to try keeping it moist... oh and the stuff will mold! And my kids didn't burrrow as they had plenty of hides to for their use.

Interestingly enough my 5' guy burrowed alot when I first moved him over to aspen. I thought he had been missing something... but then minute I came home from a show with a mesquite log big enough for all of him to fit into... he stopped burrowing.... interesting, thought I.

 

[susang]

I totally agree with ya Wylie, I think that they will grow to their surroundings the best way fit, but even if I didn't agree with this person, I try to show respect to others, the respect I expect to be talked to in. Not naming any names but there is alot of people on this forum (whether tryin to get an idea across the best or not without thinking of how they are talkin to the person) that talk with a very negative attitude if they don't like something, not thinking of if this person has any experience or not, but think "well they aren't in front of me so I can talk to them how I like" but they would definitely not talk to their mother or anyone for that matter if the person said the same thing to their face. I don't mean this in disrespect in any way toward anyone but I think that negativity makes people go elsewhere for questions and there are alot of people on this forum that can definitely help with their experiences and knowledge without being negative.

Just my two cents worth...

Lil.

Everyone is allowed their two cents worth, even as you say the "negatvie people" frankly I'm tired of hearing you're negative or he's negative, but I'm respectful. If a person any person comes on the forum and says I'm doing this or that what do you think? They will get posative and negative feedback. If they want to come on and say well I realize the majority do it this way and I want to do something different what do you think? The majority of feedback will be anecdotal, we will tell our stories of failure with this method (whatever the topic is).
I misunderstood some advice last year about what to use in lay box and used peat moss, when my female started to try to find a place to lay her eggs, she came out with mouth full of dirt. The eggs were dirty and nasty looking form the get go and eventually died. As I put the lay box in after pre lay shed, looking back it was loaded with bacteria, when she finally layed the eggs. Sphagnum moss was what I should have used. I learned a hard lesson. I've tried the zoo med bark, looks good full of bugs. Coco fibre as already said it's either to dry or to wet, causing poor shed and bacteria growth. These are my experiences and knowledge if it's negative so be it, but it's my .02 cents. susang

 

[lil_rab2005]

" They will get posative and negative feedback. If they want to come on and say well I realize the majority do it this way and I want to do something different what do you think? The majority of feedback will be anecdotal, we will tell our stories of failure with this method (whatever the topic is)."


I totally agree with that Susang. I totally agree with positive and negative feedbacks with all the posts... that's the only way I can learn. I am still new at all this. I still only have one snake. But what I was talking about wasn't negative feedback, it was negative attitudes toward people that are just asking a question. They don't deserve to be belittled or made to feel stupid. There is a way to get a point across without making the person feel as if they went to the wrong place to ask the question.

I wouldn't talk to my mother like that, why would I talk to someone that I don't know like that other than they are behind a screen, and therefore sheilds them from seeing what kind of expressions you are making while you are saying it so of course they are going to take that kind of talk wrong. I would too.

There is a respectful way to say negative feedback without insulting the person. That's the only thing that I was trying to get across. I wouldn't want someone to belittle me like that in a very rude way. That's all I was trying to get across but like I said, I'm not trying to pin point or bash anyone in particular in any way shape or form by saying any other this. I hate arguing so that's all I will say about that... no I'm not Forest Gump lol...

Take care all,

Lil.

 

[diamondlil]

I couldn't see any condescending or disrespectful replies. I couldn't see anything belittling the OP:shrugs:

 

[lil_rab2005]

OOps... sorry

I couldn't see any condescending or disrespectful replies. I couldn't see anything belittling the OP:shrugs:

Sorry Diamondlil... I didn't even read the beginning thread that started this one but I was really talking in general since I started coming to this forum, there are people that bash people for no apparent reason other than the person was a little naive or ignorant (respectfully lol) but I was basically talking about people belittling other people in general just for asking a questions, whether its asked everyday or not, they still don't know and need to be corrected by people on this forum with alot of knowledge and experience like yourself. Didn't really mean this thread other than what the thread was called at the beginning.

Sorry,

Lil.

 

[diamondlil]

No worries Lil, I was just wondering what I'd missed:rofl: I was reading and re-reading the thread and trying to figure it out!

 

[susang]

I totally agree with that Susang. I totally agree with positive and negative feedbacks with all the posts... that's the only way I can learn. I am still new at all this. I still only have one snake. But what I was talking about wasn't negative feedback, it was negative attitudes toward people that are just asking a question. They don't deserve to be belittled or made to feel stupid. There is a way to get a point across without making the person feel as if they went to the wrong place to ask the question.

I wouldn't talk to my mother like that, why would I talk to someone that I don't know like that other than they are behind a screen, and therefore sheilds them from seeing what kind of expressions you are making while you are saying it so of course they are going to take that kind of talk wrong. I would too.

There is a respectful way to say negative feedback without insulting the person. That's the only thing that I was trying to get across. I wouldn't want someone to belittle me like that in a very rude way. That's all I was trying to get across but like I said, I'm not trying to pin point or bash anyone in particular in any way shape or form by saying any other this. I hate arguing so that's all I will say about that... no I'm not Forest Gump lol...

Take care all,

Lil.

I guess I'm really obtuse, because I don't see any belittleing or negative attitudes toward people. Maybe you should just tell us what you are talkig about, so we can understand and improve ourselves. Because I am old enough to be your mother and you are on the other side of a screen, and I am really perplexed by your statements, susang

 

[lil_rab2005]

No worries Lil, I was just wondering what I'd missed:rofl: I was reading and re-reading the thread and trying to figure it out!

Thanx Diamondlil lol, I guess I should've stated that in my beginning reply to this thread sorry lol.

Susang, I'm sorry I really don't know how else to phrase it. I'm not trying to be rude in anyway toward anyone. Quite the contrary, actually. But its nothing for you to really worry about since you said you speak with respect to everyone anyways. Its toward peeps that talk with disrespect to belittle the person for being naive when all the while the person is just trying to get some advice for something particular.

Lil.

 

[Wylie]

Of course, I did a lot of things when I was younger and survived them... just means I was dang lucky not to kill myself.

As for your example of the dog... doesn't quite cut it... your dog isn't living among the ticks 24/7 and hopefully, you've treated him. And you remove any ticks that you might find... Lyme Disease can be fatal....

For the record, I realize that was a bad example, I just couldn't think of a better one at the time.

I understand your view point as well. I understand both view points equally well. What I wanted to get across in my post is that it's always good to keep one's mind open to other view points and consider those other points of view. If we never did that and just adhered to the "we've done it this way for 40 years because that's what we came to find out" then we'd still be here today believing the earth is flat. People who have the courage to question things and offer an alternative point of view are to be commended IMO, even if their view point turns out to be wrong later.

I do appreciate alternate points of view no matter what I personally choose to do. I may not agree with someone else's opinion or view point but I still appreciate it being brought up because if anything, it makes me think, and possibly just makes me more confident in the option I choose to follow. Or, I may change my mind because someone else brought to light a different way of doing things. In any case, I like knowing ALL my options so that I can make an EDUCATED decision. I did not see the original thread the OP is referring to, but I just know that I appreciate reading about a different idea of a set up and reading the pro's and con's to it from all the members so that I can get all the facts and make an educated decision for myself. I appreciate that he posted what he did with his set up and why.