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Anery, ghost or what?
- Thread starter catitus
- Start date
Jay@PJCReptiles
"Quality Before Quantity"
I agree with Susan. It is a good possibility that could be a Dilute. Test breeding, test breeding, test breeding.
The part of your post that concerns me the most is "his roomie". Why are you co-habbing your snakes? This is one of the main factors as to why things go wrong with peoples snakes. I don't get it and probably never will. You should use the F.A.Q. feature. A lot of questions and concerns can be answered, especially about proper husbandry skills. Those snakes need to be kept in separate enclosers. I will not apologize for my bluntness because this type of husbandry will only lead to problems later down the road. You will be back on here complaining that something went wrong with your snakes (i.e. stress, not eating, sick or worse yet cannibalized) later down the road. People need to really educate themselves before they even think about purchasing any animal of any kind. Keeping two snakes in an encloser is not acceptable. They are not communal and are solitary animals in the wild so why one keep them together is beyond me. They are very nice specimens and I would think you would want to keep them that way. One of the biggest problems/issues these days in this hobby is the fact that people just run out to a pet store or go online and purchase a snake before they inform themselves to the proper care and treatment of that animal. This kind of ignorance will only lead to the demise of the snake. The first thing you should do before you worry about what the genetic make-up of your snake is to make sure you house them properly. If one cannot afford to house them properly (in separate enclosures) then they shouldn't purchase the snake in the first place. Nowadays there really is no excuse for ignorance when it comes to husbandry needs for snakes, or for that matter any animal, as there is so much information to be gathered and learned by going to the library and opening a book or two. Better yet, almost all the information one needs can be found only a "click" away. You do have a couple of very nice snakes and I wouldn't want you to lose them when it could have been prevented in the first place. Please separate your snakes a.s.a.p. Take it for what it's worth but I assure you your snakes will benefit the most in the end. Just my 2 pennies worth.
Jay
catitus
world seems to be grey
First, my English ins't not so good.
I have to adult females together, they've been together about whole they living time. We don't have/had any problems with those snakes and I'm not worried about these little ones either. I'm not trying to be a cocky little bastard , my experience about housing 2 snakes togerher, are good. Actually it's normal here in Finland, that someones have 2-3 snakes in same terrarium. I have never heard that snake has eaten his/her roomie.
So I have only good experiences to housing 2 snakes in the same terrarium.
These aren't my first snakes.
I have to adult females together, they've been together about whole they living time. We don't have/had any problems with those snakes and I'm not worried about these little ones either. I'm not trying to be a cocky little bastard
, my experience about housing 2 snakes togerher, are good. Actually it's normal here in Finland, that someones have 2-3 snakes in same terrarium. I have never heard that snake has eaten his/her roomie.So I have only good experiences to housing 2 snakes in the same terrarium.
These aren't my first snakes.
Jay@PJCReptiles
"Quality Before Quantity"
Do what you will. They are your snakes. Just remember that you have been informed.First, my English ins't not so good.
I have to adult females together, they've been together about whole they living time. We don't have/had any problems with those snakes and I'm not worried about these little ones either. I'm not trying to be a cocky little bastard
So I have only good experiences to housing 2 snakes in the same terrarium.
These aren't my first snakes.
Jay
Jay@PJCReptiles
"Quality Before Quantity"
Like I said. You have been informed. Good luck with it.
Jay
marinneli
Just lovin' Cubes!
I feel a need to speak for catitus here. She's very experienced with corns and she's bred them succesfully. So she knows what she's doing.
And like she said, housing two or even more snakes in a same viv is more like a rule than an exception in Finland. Most people who have more than one snake keep them in the same viv. Of course there are certain facts people need to realize before housing snakes with eachother - for example their genders. Opposite sexes are not to be kept together. Neither should two snakes of different size be kept together - or two too small as cannibalism CAN occur within hatchlings.
The health of the snakes should be monitored closely anyway regardless whether they are housed separately or in groups. IF a snake gets a sickness, ticks for example, it's very likely other snakes will get the same disease via feeding pincers or other gadgets. So keeping them separate doesn't guarantee their health. Wise and caring owner is the only thing to make sure the animals are as safe as possible. Yet again I must point out that ticks (for example) isn't a problem here. Only few imported WC animals have had ticks and and I know one contamination that happened in a reptile show that's pretty much it. It might be our cold winter that prevents the spreading of most viruses, bacteria and parasites.
What comes to Kenny, the odd-looking anery boy...
He was my impulse purchase from a reptile show in Sweden. I wanted to have him for my cube project as his pattern is "cubishly" aberrant. All the breeder was able to tell me in the hurry and noise of the fair was that he's not sure whether the snake's an anery or ghost. As I purchased other snakes at the same fair and didn't actually have room for Kenny, I gave him to live at catitus'.
What comes to test breeding him...well, that might be a problem. I know one finnish gal bought Kenny's brother (who might be dilute anery as well if Kenny is), but that's it then. For what I know, there aren't any dilutes in Finland - except for Kenny and his bro.
Maybe catitus needs to change her plans and search for dilute anery motley female instead of the anery motley female she's been talking about....
And like she said, housing two or even more snakes in a same viv is more like a rule than an exception in Finland. Most people who have more than one snake keep them in the same viv. Of course there are certain facts people need to realize before housing snakes with eachother - for example their genders. Opposite sexes are not to be kept together. Neither should two snakes of different size be kept together - or two too small as cannibalism CAN occur within hatchlings.
The health of the snakes should be monitored closely anyway regardless whether they are housed separately or in groups. IF a snake gets a sickness, ticks for example, it's very likely other snakes will get the same disease via feeding pincers or other gadgets. So keeping them separate doesn't guarantee their health. Wise and caring owner is the only thing to make sure the animals are as safe as possible. Yet again I must point out that ticks (for example) isn't a problem here. Only few imported WC animals have had ticks and and I know one contamination that happened in a reptile show that's pretty much it. It might be our cold winter that prevents the spreading of most viruses, bacteria and parasites.
What comes to Kenny, the odd-looking anery boy...
He was my impulse purchase from a reptile show in Sweden. I wanted to have him for my cube project as his pattern is "cubishly" aberrant. All the breeder was able to tell me in the hurry and noise of the fair was that he's not sure whether the snake's an anery or ghost. As I purchased other snakes at the same fair and didn't actually have room for Kenny, I gave him to live at catitus'.
What comes to test breeding him...well, that might be a problem. I know one finnish gal bought Kenny's brother (who might be dilute anery as well if Kenny is), but that's it then. For what I know, there aren't any dilutes in Finland - except for Kenny and his bro.
Maybe catitus needs to change her plans and search for dilute anery motley female instead of the anery motley female she's been talking about....
Jay@PJCReptiles
"Quality Before Quantity"
I really can't believe you are condoning this. I don't care how long she has been doing this. What's wrong is wrong. The way I see it is she has been very lucky. Husbandry skills like this will only lead down a bad road. Like I said, do what you will, they are your snakes but remember I will be the first one in line to say "I told you so" when a problem arrises. Have at it, best of luck and I feel bad for her snakes. If you keep/house yours this way I feel bad for yours as well. It is known that problems can and will arise when co-habbing snakes. If things like this can be prevented by keeping them housed separately why wouldn't one do so. Why even ponder taking the risk when one doesn't/shouldn't have to. You can come to her defense all you want. It doesn't make it right. There isn't anything anyone can do or say that will make me believe differently. It is wrong so why do it? This is just a horror story waiting to happen.I feel a need to speak for catitus here. She's very experienced with corns and she's bred them succesfully. So she knows what she's doing.
And like she said, housing two or even more snakes in a same viv is more like a rule than an exception in Finland. Most people who have more than one snake keep them in the same viv. Of course there are certain facts people need to realize before housing snakes with eachother - for example their genders. Opposite sexes are not to be kept together. Neither should two snakes of different size be kept together - or two too small as cannibalism CAN occur within hatchlings.
The health of the snakes should be monitored closely anyway regardless whether they are housed separately or in groups. IF a snake gets a sickness, ticks for example, it's very likely other snakes will get the same disease via feeding pincers or other gadgets. So keeping them separate doesn't guarantee their health. Wise and caring owner is the only thing to make sure the animals are as safe as possible. Yet again I must point out that ticks (for example) isn't a problem here. Only few imported WC animals have had ticks and and I know one contamination that happened in a reptile show that's pretty much it. It might be our cold winter that prevents the spreading of most viruses, bacteria and parasites.
Jay
marinneli
Just lovin' Cubes!
I'm surprised it's a horror story in your part of the world but not here... We all do know the possibility of cannibalism (even the few very devoted breeders here who have bred corns for a decade or so), but still it's commonly accepted to keep snakes together IF they're of similar size, the same gender and not too young.
And the same "rules" apply in Sweden. They house their snakes in pairs and groups as well.
I'm surprised to face this kind of judgement concerning a matter that is well accepted and commonly done in Finland and other countries. I never thought things could be so different somewhere else.
What's even more odd... None of the cannibalism pics I've seen in the internet have been from Finland - or Sweden. We keep our snakes together (not the small hatchlings) and we haven't had problems. When you (not meaning personally YOU, Jay) do it, you end up with the horror story and these pics... Maybe there is something about the husbandry we do differently after all...?
Maybe our vivs are generally bigger?
Maybe we provide more hiding places?
Maybe we provide more/larger heated areas?
Feeding all the snakes separately goes along without saying.
I don't know what we do differently, but it seems to be working for us.
I'm not saying you're wrong, Jay. I respect your opinion.
It's just that people have always done it the same way here, and no problems have arised. And I'm not saying that problems would never arise - it's just that if we have the amount of snake owners and breeders we have and all of them (who have more than one snake) keep more than one snake together....shouldn't we have already got some problems...?
Are corns truly solitary animals in nature?
The husbandry advice here in Finland says:
"Cornsnakes get on well alone, but if the terrarium is big enough you can house two or even three snakes together."
The same seems to go with UK:
http://www.reptilekeeper.co.uk/corncare.php
And so far none of the foreign husbandry articles that I've read has said that DO NOT keep two or more corns together.
The most famous finnish breeder (not gonna mention his name here, but he is internationally well known) keeps his adults in pairs (of course females and males separately) and subadults in groups of three - and without a problem. He's the "guru" around here, and his advice people follow.
I just can't understand why our method would be so badly wrong when it works just fine. Our snakes (finnish in general that is) eat, breed, shed, poop and maintain their health perfectly well, so this shouldn't be an issue.
And the same "rules" apply in Sweden. They house their snakes in pairs and groups as well.
I'm surprised to face this kind of judgement concerning a matter that is well accepted and commonly done in Finland and other countries. I never thought things could be so different somewhere else.
What's even more odd... None of the cannibalism pics I've seen in the internet have been from Finland - or Sweden. We keep our snakes together (not the small hatchlings) and we haven't had problems. When you (not meaning personally YOU, Jay) do it, you end up with the horror story and these pics... Maybe there is something about the husbandry we do differently after all...?
Maybe our vivs are generally bigger?
Maybe we provide more hiding places?
Maybe we provide more/larger heated areas?
Feeding all the snakes separately goes along without saying.
I don't know what we do differently, but it seems to be working for us.
I'm not saying you're wrong, Jay. I respect your opinion.
It's just that people have always done it the same way here, and no problems have arised. And I'm not saying that problems would never arise - it's just that if we have the amount of snake owners and breeders we have and all of them (who have more than one snake) keep more than one snake together....shouldn't we have already got some problems...?
Are corns truly solitary animals in nature?
The husbandry advice here in Finland says:
"Cornsnakes get on well alone, but if the terrarium is big enough you can house two or even three snakes together."
The same seems to go with UK:
http://www.reptilekeeper.co.uk/corncare.php
And so far none of the foreign husbandry articles that I've read has said that DO NOT keep two or more corns together.
The most famous finnish breeder (not gonna mention his name here, but he is internationally well known) keeps his adults in pairs (of course females and males separately) and subadults in groups of three - and without a problem. He's the "guru" around here, and his advice people follow.
I just can't understand why our method would be so badly wrong when it works just fine. Our snakes (finnish in general that is) eat, breed, shed, poop and maintain their health perfectly well, so this shouldn't be an issue.
MedusaCorns
peek-a-boo!
Ewww jay that's gross... Poor little snakies
MedusaCorns
peek-a-boo!
I thought it was more likely for adult same sex corns to house ok like two adult females verses a mother with her clutch that would in return cannibalize her young if need be? Even the hatchlings are going to have first instinct and look for food and each other after first shed. If you want the snakes then well, I would care enough to know when they would pip and already have their little houses ready. We may do things different but, maybe to us it's better?
I agree with jay.. besides those pics are gross and I hope it never happens here.
Anyways, Beautiful corn snakes and yes, they do look dilute in someway or resemble the rootbeer ghosts but they are also motley too which with a pattern like that can dilute coloring a little bit If they het other things, that can also mess with coloring.
I agree with jay.. besides those pics are gross and I hope it never happens here.
Anyways, Beautiful corn snakes and yes, they do look dilute in someway or resemble the rootbeer ghosts but they are also motley too which with a pattern like that can dilute coloring a little bit
If they het other things, that can also mess with coloring.
ghosthousecorns
Well-known member
Well I don't usually do this but I am going to play devils advocate here. There is ALWAYS going to be a risk of cannibalism, but this doesn't sound to me like a rookie who doesn't know any better, and I don't want to be quick to crucify someone who knows the risks and knows the temperament of their snakes. Same sex (usually female) adults have been successfully kept in one enclosure before - I do not condone this or do it myself but I am also not a fan of the scare tactics and jumping on the Oh Noes evil cohabber!!!! wagon. Let's keep it in perspective!
But don't take my word for it. For some reason it took a lot of searching but here is a post by Kathy Love on the subject - However, in the post she IS referring to adults. Keeping babies together is much more risky
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=118051&postcount=2
But don't take my word for it. For some reason it took a lot of searching but here is a post by Kathy Love on the subject - However, in the post she IS referring to adults. Keeping babies together is much more risky
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=118051&postcount=2
Last edited:
catitus
world seems to be grey
Maybe we feed our snakes more often and our vivs are bigger. Minimum recommendation is 200 litres for adult corn snake.
marinneli
Just lovin' Cubes!
There it was, all written down and with better English I could've done.
Furthermore - I don't want to start an argument by bringing this up - I know that minimum tank sizes for aquarium fish are considerably smaller in USA than in Finland. Where you suggest 100L for a certain fish, we suggest 250-300L.
And I've noticed that 20 gallons is the size of a tank recommended for an adult corn in USA. Well in finland the absolute minimun tank size for ONE adult is 30 gallons, but usually people have 40 gallon tanks.
Personally I have 50+ gallon viv for two males and I find it a bit smallish even though it is more than the recommended minimum. So I've decided to build a bigger one next summer. I also have 170 gallon viv for two females. Later I am going to try to add one or two more females in that viv.
So maybe generally bigger vivs are one of the reasons why we tend to get better results of housing two or three snakes together?
Drizzt80
Dakota Corns
There is a lot of variability within Anery's and how they express their color. From steely gray to pastelly orange. You can also throw in the Motley and/or Stripe gene, and you generally get a Hypo-like affect. More so with the Stripe gene, but also with Motley.
My vote is for a gorgeous looking Anery, no Ghost.
D80
My vote is for a gorgeous looking Anery, no Ghost.
D80
Shiari
Blutterer
When I got my first two snakes, I kept them together in a 55 gallon tank, and they were both young so tons of room. Tons of hides, deep aspen, plenty of heat, several water bowls...
And while one didn't eat the other, one snake was so stressed by the cohabbing (they'd been separate before I got the giant tank) that she began to refuse to eat and ended up on a 6 week hunger strike. I removed her from the tank after week three I think of not eating. She's still far far far behind Liam, who is about 120 grams while Ferenea is now a whopping 34.
So, even without disasters, even with a tank larger than you consider adequate, it can still cause distress to the animals. *shrugs*
And while one didn't eat the other, one snake was so stressed by the cohabbing (they'd been separate before I got the giant tank) that she began to refuse to eat and ended up on a 6 week hunger strike. I removed her from the tank after week three I think of not eating. She's still far far far behind Liam, who is about 120 grams while Ferenea is now a whopping 34.
So, even without disasters, even with a tank larger than you consider adequate, it can still cause distress to the animals. *shrugs*
