Anery? Ghost? Stripe? Motley!?

[dave partington]

Just MO, but I would venture to say she's a got some yellow rat in her. Look at the head, it screams yellow rat to me.

If you look at a yellow ratsnake, a trans peco ratsnake, a motley/motley stripe caramel, or a striped butter, then there are many similarities between them all. The arrangement of head scales and a few other discernible attributes can be looked for, so closer inspection often reveals truths which do not show up in fuzzy little pictures. While there seems to be a trend towards screaming "HYBIRD!!!" at anything new or unfamiliar, it often is unfounded, though it's fun to watch.

I've also noticed how the cornsnake community seems to have drifted away from oldschool definitions
regarding pattern, and in some instances, color, as well.
It used to be that a snake, to be considered stripe, had to be 90% or more covered with a stripe. The same applied to the Motley/stripes. and to Motleys. If it had less stripe then it was considered a het.
Then along came Tesseras (out of an okeeXmotley project, and also Pieds.
And with them came the terms "high expression", Low Expression", and so forth.
I see many Tesseras with broken up central dorsal stripe; some do not really look like the original Tesseras which KJ, Don, & Graham originally worked with. But they are still marketed as Tessera, or referred to as 'Low Expression'.
I know the train of thought that anything that hatches in a Tessera clutch, that has the slightest look of a Tess anywhere on its body, is considered a Tessera for all intensive retail purposes.
However, because they came out of Motley/Stripe genetic background, why not call an incomplete dorsally striped Tess a Het Tess?
I started a thread asking about 'Superform Tessera', it got like 3 replies. From what I gather on that, if a low expression tessera is bred to a low expression tessera, all of the tesseras that hatch out are considered Superform Tesseras, regardless of what they look like.
Would it not (perhaps?) be better to consider Tesseras which most closely resemble the original reverse trio' pattern to be considered Superform"?
Can the breeding of two Tesseras with messy patterns produce a Tessera with clean pristine original crisp pattern?
With Pied came High Expression, Low Expression, & so forth.
And then there's a lot of snakes which contain Hypo, but it seems that there is a lot of Ghost stuff around which has, from what I've seen, way too much black to really fit into the definition of Hypo. I mean, either it is, or it isn't. I feel it is irresponsible to try to sell something for more than it is.
I have snakes with the broken up stripes, some of them have gaps in the stripe, others have that butterfly pattern thing on their backs. I'm not sure they are stripe, that is, the pattern does not cover 90% of their body. Some people call it 'vanishing stripe' or come up with other names for space junk. I really do not think of it as "vanishing" at all. The pattern stays the same for the lifespan of the individual snake. However, some of the Vanishing Stripe snakes do indeed have pattern which fades, mutes, and disappears over the course of the snakes first few years of life; the pattern does truly vanish.
Feedback please.
dp

 

[kernel]

I did notice that. But just as if someone says "I looks like a candycane, IMO" to something that is clearly a sunglow, I'm going to correct them and point out the differences, to help them learn.

And I learned something. We are all aways learning.

 

[Carinata]

What would the het amel have anything to do with this? It's a recessive trait which means it doesn't express at *all* unless there are two copies. A *lot* of corns have a lighter head, because they don't seem to get the same melanin wash there that they do on the rest of the body.

Actually many recessive traits have het markers. For instance, het Patternless Fat-Tails, usually will have the bands conntect near there belly. Het Ghost, Albino, Clown, and Black Axanthic Ball Pythons are just a few of the morphs off the top of my head I can list that have visual het markers. This being said sometimes the hets won't have these markers, and this is no coincedence. Also het Bloodred Corns have the railroad track bellies.

 

[Shiari]

Also het Bloodred Corns have the railroad track bellies.

Not always. Plus I have a corn NOT het blood with that marker.

 

[Carinata]

Not always. Plus I have a corn NOT het blood with that marker.

I've had many. And as you said, in your post the gene doesn't show at all, which is not true.

 

[dave partington]

I've had many. And as you said, in your post the gene doesn't show at all, which is not true.

Trying to stick to cornsnakes here without getting sidetracked into random African Reptile Genetics, I have some ghost stripes het blood, lavender, amel, and a couple other (undisclosed) genes, which, while only one parent was homoz lavender, and the other was not, visually look like lavender ghost motley stripes. But only because I KNOW the other parent is NOT homo or het lavender, they are just ghost stripes. They sure could pass for lavenders though. Good thing I don't post "What kind is this?" threads. Knowing, rather than presenting assumptions as facts. But if I were to ask what they were, and sold them, based on what an expert on a reptile forum had told me, and they turned out to be something else, would that hurt the reputation of the person who told me what they were? Which is why I try to stay away from identifying other peoples pickups. If I do not KNOW, I do not know. I suppose saying "your snake is an anery corn" is a safe place to go though. Thereby avoiding calling it a "cornsnake". And it is obviously anery. I'm rambling

 

[Carinata]

No offense, Dave, but genetics is genetics. If they're from America or Africa, it doesn't matter.

 

[Susan]

The few corn snake het markers have never been 100% as I can show you examples of known hets that do not show the het markers and known non-hets that do. They should only be used to help make a judgement call in a "guesstimate", such as in choosing which of two hatchlings to keep when all else is equal.

Dave P. - When I first got into corns, the "ideal" striped corn snake was one that had a full stripe going from head to tail. I'm not sure what or why it happened, but the "vanishing" stripe became the more desired. True, a striped corn that has a minimal pattern is attractive, but so is one with a full stripe, IMO.

The OP's motley, and I will call it a motley as that is it's pattern, is a wonderful example of one of the several "types" of motley pattern, the pin-stripe. Whether it is also carrying the stripe gene as the "mate" for the motley gene, only breeding trials will be able to tell as this type of motley pattern can be found in snakes that are homozygous motley, no stripe gene involved at all. Using this pattern as a "het marker" for the stripe gene is like any other het marker...not a 100% guarantee.

About the lightness of color, non-distinct head pattern, yellow nose and head size compared to body size, there is nothing unusual or indicates any non-corn snake lineage at all in this snake. It is a juvenile snake with some growing to do. I can show you many juveniles of many species that aren't quite right in their proportions. Many anerys are that light, show quite a bit of yellow and don't have a very distinct head pattern.

Some examples for comparison: anery stripe, anery stripe, anery het motley het stripe, ghost stripe, anery het motley het stripe.

 

[dave partington]

Thanks Susan. Did not know the yellow nose detail. Need to go look at the residents awhile & take pics n stuff & cognizantly re-process what you've posted..

No offense, Dave, but genetics is genetics. If they're from America or Africa, it doesn't matter.

If the interwebs agree with you, I back down. They know the truths.

 

[Carinata]

Dave, I don't get this info from the internet, it's from personal experience my friend.

 

[kernel]

I would like to say that was only a guess and apparently I was wrong. I admitted it before and admit it again.

 

[ZiggysMom]

I am really enjoying this conversation Susan and Dave.

Dave, I remember your question about a super form of Tessera. I was hoping that there would be more to that discussion too.

Dave you seem to be a very honorable person to only tell costumers what you are absolutely sure of about the genetics of your snakes. Thank you.

Lots of us have at least a few snakes that we are not sure of the genetics or don't even have anything beyond the snake itself as a guide to what the genetics might be. I try to figure out my unknowns. Maybe some day I will breed a few to find out.

I have studied genetics in many species of animals and plants. Genes and genetics work the same way all living things. There are several different modes of inheritance that have been described. All the genes that I have heard of in corn snakes are either recessive or the two complete dominants (that I know of), Buf and Teressa. But in most animals there are other modes of inheritance besides these. I have always thought it was odd that so many of the genes of interest in corn snakes are simple recessive.

For many of the most well studied animal species the genes that are most important are genes that have an additive effect. The trait is controlled by many pairs of genes, the more copies of the desirable gene condition the better. Each gene adds its own little bit to the total. For instance in beef cattle the birth weight of the calf is a trait that is additive and highly heritable. Many genes contribute to birth weight, so there is a whole rang of possible birth weights. Does the calf have just a few genes adding to birth weight or most of the genes possible in cows adding to birth weight, or some where in between, That is how additive inheritance works.

Birth weight in cows is also highly heritable. That means that birth weight is mostly controlled by genes and the environment does not play much of a role in the outcome. If the mother was starving during gestation the calf would be smaller than its full potential but as long as the mother is healthy the birth weight is almost all genetically determined, with contributions from both parents. If the mother was a little under-hydrated when she gave birth it is not likely to change the weigh of the calf.

Milk production in cows on the other hand is additive but has a low level of heritability. Lots of desirable genes can contribute to the possibility of high milk production but the environment plays a very large rule in how much of that possibility is ever reached. If the cow is under-hydrated before milking, her production will be down that day. Genetically she could have made more milk but the environment got in the way.

To bring this back to corn snakes while anyone is still reading;
I have been wondering if pied is a trait that is additive. A different thread on here recently described the history of the original bloodreds (diffused). Apparently the original line was bread partly for clean white bellies. Some people, (sorry I forget who), suggested that pied is a "bleeding or spreading" of the white bellies onto the sides of the snakes. When the look of bloodreds was first being established, the breeders may have been working on the "goldilocks" amount of white (pied) to get nice clean white bellies without white up the sides, without fully realizing it. That could explain why there are very low, low, medium and higher amounts of pied, (white starting ventrally and spreading up around the snake), possible. Each of several genes may add its own little bit to having more white. From orange bellies at the low end of expression to high amounts of pied on the sides at the higher end. Is there a maximum amount of pied possible?

I am also surprised that almost all the described genes in corn snakes seem to show independent assortment. Independent assortment between two genes would mean that having or not having gene #1 does not change the chance of, or inheritance pattern of gene #2. For example a snake being homo amel does not change how any copies of anery are passed on. So these two genes show independent assortment relative to each other. It is possible for there to be two different genes that control two different traits but nearly always get inherited together. These are said to be linked traits. Are there any known linked genes in corn snakes?

Comments?

 

[Shiari]

Masque and Diffused are very frequently linked. When they "uncouple", you often get animals like Crayola... that show NO signs of diffusion except for the patternless belly.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

The lack of head pattern, yellow on the nose and the relatively large head compeered to the body. All characteristics of the yellow rat.

I know it's already been said, but the yellow on the nose is common in anerys. The "lack of", or "faded" head pattern, can be attributed to the stripe/motley gene. The size of the head looks pretty darn normal to me.

I did notice that. But just as if someone says "I looks like a candycane, IMO" to something that is clearly a sunglow, I'm going to correct them and point out the differences, to help them learn.

I've given out too much rep in the past 24 hours.

No offense, Dave, but genetics is genetics. If they're from America or Africa, it doesn't matter.

Yes and no. Yes, the modes of inheritance are the same, but how each gene behaves both in het or homo form differs (even if only slightly) from species to species, even with similar genes. I'm going to explain a bit later on one example where I believe that yes, I agree with you, and they are quite similar.

I am really enjoying this conversation Susan and Dave.

Dave, I remember your question about a super form of Tessera. I was hoping that there would be more to that discussion too.

Dave you seem to be a very honorable person to only tell costumers what you are absolutely sure of about the genetics of your snakes. Thank you.

Lots of us have at least a few snakes that we are not sure of the genetics or don't even have anything beyond the snake itself as a guide to what the genetics might be. I try to figure out my unknowns. Maybe some day I will breed a few to find out.

I have studied genetics in many species of animals and plants. Genes and genetics work the same way all living things. There are several different modes of inheritance that have been described. All the genes that I have heard of in corn snakes are either recessive or the two complete dominants (that I know of), Buf and Teressa. But in most animals there are other modes of inheritance besides these. I have always thought it was odd that so many of the genes of interest in corn snakes are simple recessive.

For many of the most well studied animal species the genes that are most important are genes that have an additive effect. The trait is controlled by many pairs of genes, the more copies of the desirable gene condition the better. Each gene adds its own little bit to the total. For instance in beef cattle the birth weight of the calf is a trait that is additive and highly heritable. Many genes contribute to birth weight, so there is a whole rang of possible birth weights. Does the calf have just a few genes adding to birth weight or most of the genes possible in cows adding to birth weight, or some where in between, That is how additive inheritance works.

Birth weight in cows is also highly heritable. That means that birth weight is mostly controlled by genes and the environment does not play much of a role in the outcome. If the mother was starving during gestation the calf would be smaller than its full potential but as long as the mother is healthy the birth weight is almost all genetically determined, with contributions from both parents. If the mother was a little under-hydrated when she gave birth it is not likely to change the weigh of the calf.

Milk production in cows on the other hand is additive but has a low level of heritability. Lots of desirable genes can contribute to the possibility of high milk production but the environment plays a very large rule in how much of that possibility is ever reached. If the cow is under-hydrated before milking, her production will be down that day. Genetically she could have made more milk but the environment got in the way.

To bring this back to corn snakes while anyone is still reading;
I have been wondering if pied is a trait that is additive. A different thread on here recently described the history of the original bloodreds (diffused). Apparently the original line was bred partly for clean white bellies. Some people, (sorry I forget who), suggested that pied is a "bleeding or spreading" of the white bellies onto the sides of the snakes. When the look of bloodreds was first being established, the breeders may have been working on the "goldilocks" amount of white (pied) to get nice clean white bellies without white up the sides, without fully realizing it. That could explain why there are very low, low, medium and higher amounts of pied, (white starting ventrally and spreading up around the snake), possible. Each of several genes may add its own little bit to having more white. From orange bellies at the low end of expression to high amounts of pied on the sides at the higher end. Is there a maximum amount of pied possible?

I am also surprised that almost all the described genes in corn snakes seem to show independent assortment. Independent assortment between two genes would mean that having or not having gene #1 does not change the chance of, or inheritance pattern of gene #2. For example a snake being homo amel does not change how any copies of anery are passed on. So these two genes show independent assortment relative to each other. It is possible for there to be two different genes that control two different traits but nearly always get inherited together. These are said to be linked traits. Are there any known linked genes in corn snakes?

Comments?

I have to say that this is an absolutely fantastic post, and I thoroughly enjoyed reading it in it's entirety. Having been a bit "out of the loop" in corn genetics over the past year or so, I can only say that I agree with Megan in regards to the linked traits. About pied, however, I personally believe that it's also entirely possible that there are a few different forms of pied out there (as evidenced by the different lines not being able to cross while still producing pied). I also believe that pied is a pattern modifier a bit more extreme than originally thought. My basis for that looks to ball pythons for "inspiration", if you will. In BP's, the pied gene not only causes the famous white bands/splotches/etc, but in lower expression animals, the color AND pattern is completely warped. For example:

Notice on the areas between the white that the sides are almost... "diffused"? So... what if the gene that we considered diffused is actually the same gene as pied? I'm sure someone will come along and debunk this theory. Is it possible that pied and diffused are linked traits? You never find pied without some sort of diffused.

 

[dave partington]

So how is the green ring gene passed on? If it's just Mendelian genetics, it must be simple enough to figure out.

 

[Susan]

So how is the green ring gene passed on? If it's just Mendelian genetics, it must be simple enough to figure out.

We just haven't figured out the genetics behind all the different "smaller" phenotypic characteristics, such as the "green" saddle bands seen in some snows and amels. I'll give you my theory on that particular trait.

I've noticed that some snows and amels with light ground color, such as candy canes and high white ROs, have scales that show very white, almost painted, scales when you compare them to the actual skin color. Some of these, most noticeably the ones with wide saddle borders, show a color difference between the regular body scales and the scales in those saddle borders. To me, it seems that the body scales are pigmented white, while the scales in the saddle borders are not pigmented at all, allowing the color of the skin to show through, or even pigmented with some yellow. There might actually be a gene, or gene complex, that removes all pigment from just the saddle borders. Some examples of what I'm talking about:

High White Reverse Okeetees from South Mountain Reptiles - look at the color between the very white scales of these snakes. It matches perfectly the color of the saddle borders and has that greenish look.

But this Fluorescent Reverse Okeetees from South Mountain Reptiles and Serpenco Fluorescent Orange show the more typical white saddle borders.

This Serpenco snow shows areas of "non-pigment" as well as pigmented saddle border scales when compared to the stark white scales.

Some closer images of the differences in actual scale pigmentation - white and yellow border scales in some of my amels to white and yellow scales in my hypo snow to not only white scales of the body color but also some yellow/green scales and what look like non-pigmented or clear scales in the last image of my snow aztec.

 

[Carinata]

Another interesting thing about Pied Ball Pythons is many of the babies will have ringers or will have very evident belly markers. Much like a Bloodred Corn in the sense the hets are very easy to pick out.

 

[Shiari]

Had someone hatch out, on another forum, 30+ 100% het pied ball pythons. Of those... something like 5 showed the 'het markers'. The rest did not.

 

[Carinata]

I can tell you that if you know what you're looking for, you'll find more than that. Kevin at NERD was saying that he's starting to see het Pieds do strange things when mixed with other morphs. I can tell you right now, every Black Pastel het Pied I've seen has a unique pattern, and every Super Black Pastel het Pied I've seen has been a ringer.

 

[Shiari]

As you claim to know so much about het markers for so very many species, wanna take a look at Vanay and we can see how ya do?

He will be tested this year for Anery, Charcoal, Hypo, Amel, Caramel, Diffused. Tell me which of those you think he has, and any others.

This is actually a half-serious offer. If you can think of any other genes to test him against next year I'd love to hear it. XD