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Another reason to go to Daytona

Blutengel said:
Oops Serp, actually I know about that.... but most of the the bloods I've seen in the hours spend surfing the net do show lots of red... don't they?
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I don't believe Anery Bloodreds show any red . . .nor do Charcoal Bloods (Pewters) . . . Butter Bloods really shouldn't have any red either. . . which is the difference between using Diffused and Bloodred . . . which I believe is what Serp was refering to. :sidestep:

D80
 
You're right now I think about it... only normal bloodreds show some red on the sides as a hatchling. But this one is such a mind breaking phenotype.. if I think I'm there, I always find out to have forgotten one, but very importnat detail.. maybe I should only post during daytime or start of the evening and not at night*lol*
 
and in case anyone was wondering...that hatchling pic isn't a definate in richs' eyes either. in discussing it with him (after picking my jaw up off the ground) we came to the conclusion it may be an amber lav. either way, it is a keeper. the colors of that snake look like they were colored in with a magic marker. they are so true and perfect in my opinion.

Rich can you post some more pictures of that one? that is if you actually read this. i dont see you on here that often. LOL
 
HMMM.... interesting. And thanks for ending the suspense! Serp was driving me nuts not giving the answer. And to think, I couldn't sell my Hypos Het Carmel Lav to save my life this year. :shrugs:
 
Wow Serp...great pics! And what a beautiful Mahogany!...err...anery c. Wow...if that's an Amber Lav, I'm impressed. I wonder how it will color up with age...

Thanks for posting the pics :)
 
Blue, I think that's the intent of Serp advocating the use of Diffused (which I 'forget' to do myself most of the time) to make it easier to understand without the 'red' thrown into the discussions. Personally, Ultra is the current genotype that gets me flustered when trying to wrap my mind around it!

If that's an Amber Lav, what's the conclusion on how Caramel and Lavender work together? I can't recall reading any discussion on that. I would have to say that that snake is not what I'd expect even with Hypo thrown into the mix!! Gorgeous!

D80
 
Drizzt80 said:
If that's an Amber Lav, what's the conclusion on how Caramel and Lavender work together? I can't recall reading any discussion on that. I would have to say that that snake is not what I'd expect even with Hypo thrown into the mix!! Gorgeous!

D80
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Yeah, I agree, its not what I expected either. Actually, I didn't really expect anything. I hadn't thought of this cross yet. Now we need a name for these new little boogers.
 
Blue, I was being a wiseguy, don't beat yourself up. I'm definitely here to learn, too.

Heh, well, there will be a lot of guessing but nobody knows what that hatchling is. The parents proved to be carrying AT LEAST Diffused, Hypo, Amel, Caramel, Lavender, and Charcoal. So, there are quite a few possibilities of what it might actually be. My "first guess" is that it's Hypo+Caramel+Lav, but I wouldn't bet ANYTHING on that, LOL. What do Charcoal Lavs, and Charcoal Caramels look like? What about a Charcoal Caramel Lavender? What about any of the above with hypo thrown in? ;)
 
I thought there was a very good chance that there was a second type of hypo in this mix. From what Rich told me, the original breeding that produced the parents of this snake was a Hypo Lav blood X Amber which resulted in all Normal offspring.

This highly suggest that the Hypo Lav Blood was Homo for a hypo type other than Hypo. My guess would be a Hypo Blood that is also Homo for a second type of hypo as well.

Since Amel is not in the mix, it could be Ultra or a new unproven hypo gene.
 
Mystery snake

Yes, Joe is correct, that snake was the product of an amber x hypo lavender blood. Vin Russo and I purchased a trio of the offspring from Vinnie Ritchie (aka Vinman) at the White Plains show two years ago. All three are normals, which indicates that there are two hypo genes at work here - according to Vinnie, the amber was just a regular amber. So they should have ostensibly been het for blood, two hypos (type A and ?), caramel and lavender. We got 27 eggs from the two females (13 + 14). We were surprised that we also got albinos (butter and regular amels) plus two blizzards. It appears that the hypo lavender blood, which was produced by Rich Z (and is back in his possession, he showed it to me in Daytona) had the pewter gene also. We did not get any lavender bloods this year, but did get a caramel blood, blizzards, butters, caramels, hypo blood, various bloods, lavenders, a few "normals" as well as that mystery snake that Serp posted the picture of. Our best guess is that it's an amber lavender, but the hypo gene involved may or may not be hypo "A". We could keep a lot of these animals and attempt to prove them out, but because of all the possible combinations that could take well into the next decade. All of these snakes have something different going on with their appearance, and the bloodred influence is fairly discernable among many of them. We are going to keep the mystery snake and the caramel blood and probably sell the rest, so if anyone is interested in getting in on this project pop me an email. I will try to take some pics and post a list on the snakes for sale section of the forum in the next day or so.

Serp - thanks for posting that picture, I can't believe you got such great clarity the quick way you took the picture - either you have a great camera or you are a master photographer (or both!).

Rich Hume
 
Sounds like an awesome project you have going on Rich. I was trying to imagine how those 3 traits would look when combined. At 1st glance, it just didn't appear to look like what I imagined. You'd think that the lav gene would mute out the caramel colors a little, even with the hypo gene. Looking at alot of lav/hypo lav hatchlings though, I can clearly see now how those 3 traits combine perfectly. That is a very beautiful hatchling! Look forward to hearing more about this project in the future. :)

debcash said:
By the way Serp - I really like the "mahogany" name. The first one I've heard that really fits.
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WOO HOO! HI-FIVE DAN!!! YEAH!!! :D
 
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Hmm, yeah, either there are two hypos in the mix, or one of the grandparents was an extremely light non-hypo and misidentified. (This is definitely where a family tree on these would be extremely helpful, hehe.)

I guess the most obvious routes are 1- breeding it to what components you suspect it to carry. (Hypo lavs and ambers are easy enough to find.) And 2-breed it to a normal and then cross offspring back to it. This should reveal any components individually. :) I forget, is it a male or female?

Serp - thanks for posting that picture, I can't believe you got such great clarity the quick way you took the picture - either you have a great camera or you are a master photographer (or both!).
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Thanks. :) I thought the pics came out very realistic and perfectly representative of the colors, but I just point and click... the camera does all that work. (Fortunately it's not a yellow snake, hehe.)
 
I'd love to get in the mix on this project! I sent you an e-mail on this and PM'd you on something else.
Thanks!
Deb
 
Drizzt80 said:
If that's an Amber Lav, what's the conclusion on how Caramel and Lavender work together? I can't recall reading any discussion on that. I would have to say that that snake is not what I'd expect even with Hypo thrown into the mix!! Gorgeous!D80
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I personally do not think this is an Amber Lavender either. The Caramel gene is an anery type gene that takes away red pigment in one way or another and adds yellow. The Lavender gene is an anery type gene that takes away red pigment and ads lavender coloration in one way or another.

This snake is orange. Yellow and Lavender do not make orange. I do not think that a snake that is homo for Caramel and Lavender will have any red pigment. Secondary orange or pink coloration yes, but not red.

I can see this snake as being a Hypo Blood that is het for Caramel which would make it orange instead of red, but not homo for Caramel or Lavender. The suspected Caramel Lavs that Rich has posted are beigeish, and more what I would expect a Caramel Lav to look like.

I forgot that Amel is in this mix, so I could see this phenotype being an Ultramel Blood if the eyes are ruby, but I would say it is het for Caramel too, or a “Hypo” Blood het Caramel would be my guess.

I produced a lot of Amel Motleys this year that are het for Caramel by breeding Butter Motleys X RED Amel Motleys and they are a similar shade of orange as this guy is. It is actually quite amazing what my RED Amel Motley line looks like when they are het for Caramel. They have a yellowish/white background color and a yellow/orange blotch color. I expect them to yellow up with each shed for awhile.

I vote for “Hypo” Bloodred het for Caramel.
 
Where did Rich post the caramel lavenders? I threw a search but didn't find and I'm very curious what they look like...
 
ecreipeoj said:
This snake is orange. Yellow and Lavender do not make orange. I do not think that a snake that is homo for Caramel and Lavender will have any red pigment. Secondary orange or pink coloration yes, but not red.
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Hmm, it's not really orange or orange-like. I guess we'll know more as it grows up but the saddle color is different from any other types of hatchlings I've seen. (Please Rich, keep us updated with pics as it matures. Or if you sell it, make sure the buyer has a good camera and internet access, LOL.)

The Caramel Diffused ("cow plop" or "blood clot" corn? :grin01: ) clutchmate was more like a brownish granite as you'd expect, definitely a world away from this one in color. There's really no hint of "yellow-like" color on it either. I think the only other place I've seen this kind of "pink" was on the ground color of some adult opals.

We've seen some really wide color variations in the pool of suspected anery lavs, so I'm wondering if caramel lav is going to be another such case... (I still wouldn't be suprised at charcoal lav or charcoal caramel, either.) :)
 
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