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Bad shed & Antarctic explorer...

J

JemmaUK

New member
This is a two fold question...

Do different snakes always shed differently?

My Claudia shed about two days after I got her - perfect shed except for maybe the last inch or so, the shed skin in one piece and a little soak and gentle assistance got rid of the rest perfectly..

Bubbles was an unqualified disaster. He went into blue 4 days ago and yesterday tried to shed. All in all the skin broke 6 times and I ended up spending over half an hour gently helping him which didnt help my emotional state in the least and I am pretty sure he didnt enjoy it either. He was very flinchy by the time it was all done and I wasnt in the best of moods either because I felt like I was hurting him :( even though I was just being the rough surface for him to work against.

I dont understand why the difference between the two when they are in the same environment. :(

Both of them seem to hate the water with a passion...

Second part of the question and its involving Bubbles again. I check on them every morning when I get up. Just gently look at the hides to see where they are and see they are ok...

Well, this morning I found a Claudia all cosied up in the ex-webcam-holster fabric hide that they both seem to adore - but no Bubbles - I look under the big hide - no snake there either.

I eventually find him buried down the cool end of the viv in the paper (clue - even small snakes leave a big lump) and look to check on him. He seems fine so I gently pick him up.... and its like cuddling a mobile icicle... I dont think the water coming out of the taps feels colder than he did... so I am curious, how cold can they get before its dangerous for them and why would a snake want to let itself get so frozen?
 
I'm new to all this and can't really answer the shed question, but I can tell you that the experts here are probably going to tell you right off that the snakes should not be living together in the same viv...
 
kalena said:
I'm new to all this and can't really answer the shed question, but I can tell you that the experts here are probably going to tell you right off that the snakes should not be living together in the same viv...
Click to expand...

Dont worry - I've already had that argument - and I did try and split them up and they both went mad - put them in tupperware boxes that I had very carefully set up - they spent the few minutes I could bear to watch it for staring at each other through the transparent plastic and trying frantically to drill through sheet plastic with their noses (oddly enough only in the direction of the other animal).

I've never seen them so utterly frantic before or since so to be honest they can stay together for now. They seem to like nothing more than being curled up together with two little faces peering at me so for now on thats how they can stay...

I will be changing their water container tho - they seem to have a thing against anything brown for some reason.
 
Yes, cohabbing is a hot button no-no here. Bubbles may have been where he was because he did NOT want to share space with Claudia, so much so that he was willing to be COLD in order to avoid it.

That said, my Humphrey sometimes hangs out on the cold side of the viv & feels like a snakesicle when picked up. Humphrey has a choice of hides that are identical, one on either side, plus a large cardboard tube that spans the back of the viv, and does not have another snake in the viv, so I assume that H WANTS to be on the cold side. If Bubbles didn't go to the cold side to avoid Claudia, maybe that's what Bubbles wants.

Just my noobie input, YMMV.
 
Sigh

They have two hides - one which only covers the hot side - one which extends most of the way down the viv

I am getting a little tired of the co-hab bitchiness - They seem fine, the people who sold them to me have made it clear they see no problem with it - and the effect of splitting them up and having them completely freak on me - made me feel very cruel to them and frankly upset me.

I can count on my fingers the number of times I have found them separate from each other - the question I asked has nothing to do with co-hab - it has to do with how cold the little ones can get before its bad for them.. I know overheat is the more dangerous of the two - but icicle snakes surely isnt great for them either..

Another point is that I have *never* in all the time I have had them seen either of them resting down the cool end until now.
 
JemmaUK said:
I can count on my fingers the number of times I have found them separate from each other - the question I asked has nothing to do with co-hab - it has to do with how cold the little ones can get before its bad for them..
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:headbang:
Cohabbing could be causing the bad shed and the new behavior...oh, and your previous feeding issues. Good luck!
 
I am getting a little tired of the co-hab bitchiness - They seem fine, the people who sold them to me have made it clear they see no problem with it - and the effect of splitting them up and having them completely freak on me - made me feel very cruel to them and frankly upset me.
Click to expand...
You have to understand that the majority of people here are more worried about the snakes then about your perceived view of their "bitchiness". This isn't about your feelings, it is about the health and well being of the snakes. Previously it was a feeding issue, now there are possible shedding and behaviour issues. This is all most likely due to cohabitation. The above quote shows you are putting human feelings on creatures that are not capable of emotion. They do not "like" each other or feel anxiety when separated - they are not capable of that. They "freak" out because they are in a new environment when you tried to separate them but they WILL settle in just fine if you give them enough time. Stop worrying about if it makes you feel "cruel" - you would actually be doing what is best for them.

This will keep coming up over and over again because most people are strongly against cohabitation (including most well respected breeders in the industry) in the best interest of the snake so don't expect that just because you want to do what you want to do regardless of the well being of the snake is going to stop people from voicing their opinions each time you bring it up. Like was stated previously, it is never a problem until it is a problem - and this is the 2nd thread about these snakes where there is an obvious problem yet you still don't want to see the truth behind it.

This is not about bashing you either - this is about people who are generally concerned for the well being of your snakes. Anyone who posts about cohabbing their snakes would get pretty much the same responses.
 
let me make it more clear.

I post on an autocycles forum.... so lets say I post a question about a two stroke thats hard to start - and I then post another question about the same machine asking about the new carb and jet settings so I can use it with a packed and piped zenoah... People harping on about starting is not going to help me when I am talking about a totally different subject. Oh look lets bitch because we think Jemma is doing it wrong... incidentally for those who have this problem ... an admix of 50mls 12% nitromethane model aircraft fuel per 700mls petrol mix - and they fire first spin everytime..

questions asked....

Why a bad shed with one snake when the other shed almost perfectly when the environment is identical?

Why did a snake move to cold end and how cold can they get before its dangerous?

Answers I got.....

winge, winge, winge, cohabbing, winge, personal attack, winge.

I have checked and rechecked with my supplier - they dont have an issue with it - the only proviso is snakes the same size and breed - and they are the same size and breed - and that you split them before 12-18 months old - which as I have said before I intend to do anyway.

Now I could get nasty and mention the fact that its hardly natural to 'farm' snakes like alot of the experts do on here - but I wont not least because if it wasnt for that these wonderful animals wouldnt be available. I can see how upset people get when something goes wrong in that situation and I know personally that my heart is in my mouth every time one of mine decides to leap for freedom or gets himself wedged into the bath-rim so tight he needs my help to get out... so if you want to be of help... kindly answer my questions and be pleasant - or dont bother, annoyance & personal insults I can get for free by talking to my mother, I have to pay for internet and therefore could do without them.. she does a great line in free bigotry too don'tcha know...
 
I can't help you with the shed questions because I am new to this. I tried to tell you what I know about my Humphrey who is sometimes an Antarctic explorer but seems to suffer no harm from it. I am sorry if that wasn't helpful enough, it was the best I had to offer.

Edit: the cold side of H's viv has gotten down to 65-68F in the coldest part of the winter. H still sometimes went over there, and REALLY felt like a snakesicle. But Humphrey eats, sheds, cuddles, poos and seems to know when to go to the warm side. So that's what I know about how cold is too cold, the temps Humphrey has sought out on purpose were as low as that & didn't seem to do any harm. I hope that helps a little.
 
Answers I got.....

winge, winge, winge, cohabbing, winge, personal attack, winge.

I have checked and rechecked with my supplier - they dont have an issue with it - the only proviso is snakes the same size and breed - and they are the same size and breed - and that you split them before 12-18 months old - which as I have said before I intend to do anyway.
Click to expand...
None of the replies to your original post attacked you. People are trying to offer you advice by stating that these are most probably obvious signs of stress due to the continued cohabitation. If that advice is considered an attack...then you are really reading into this wrong. It is obviously not the advice you want to hear - but it is the truth. People are not going to just tell you what you want to hear - they are going to point out the obvious problem.

Just because your supplier has had no problems does not mean that you or anyone else who purchases from them may not. That is one supplier compared to how many experienced breeders and keepers are telling you that it is what is causing the problems you are having?
I understand that you intend to separate them eventually, but if the problems are presenting themselves now - then you need to separate them now - not down the road when it may be too late.
If you want to keep having problems with your snakes - stress, health issues etc, then by all means continue to keep them together. But if they die due to it - don't come crying back to us because we have advised over and over again to separate them before it gets to that point.
 
Your snakes are having bad sheds because your husbandry needs sorting out. do you have a digital thermometer/hygrometer? You can get them for @£20 from Maplins.
 
JemmaUK said:
let me make it more clear.

I post on an autocycles forum.... so lets say I post a question about a two stroke thats hard to start - and I then post another question about the same machine asking about the new carb and jet settings so I can use it with a packed and piped zenoah... People harping on about starting is not going to help me when I am talking about a totally different subject.
Click to expand...
Well first off, you can't exactly compare living, breathing animals to...an inanimate object. That's like comparing apples and helicopters. Your motorcycle is a machine and thus unlikely to suffer from health problems as a result of stress. Your snakes, however, already seem to be having problems which we can most likely blame on the fact that they are being cohabbed.

Second, it's not a completely different subject. All of these problems are probably related to stress as a result of cohabbing. It sounds like you have had other problems in the past which can also be assumed to be caused by cohabbing...I really don't mean for this to sound like an attack but honestly, how much more proof do you need that this is negatively affecting them? It may be true that some people don't have issues when their snakes are cohabbing, but you obviously are.

Your snakes aren't often found in the same place because they "like" to be together; they're in the same place because they both want to be there and they have no other choice. Likewise, they were acting skittish when you moved them to new homes because it was a new home that they weren't used to yet. It has nothing to do with your snakes "missing" each other; that's just anthropomorphizing them. Snakes are not social creatures and they don't give a rat's hat if they're all by their lonesome in a vivarium, but they DO care if another snake is in their territory/hide/favorite burrow.

People are answering your questions, and everyone has been very nice about it so far. Just because you don't want to hear a certain answer doesn't make it bad advice. People here care first and foremost about the health of the animal. The fact of the matter is that your concerns can't be addressed without at least touching on the subject, because "cohabbing is stressing your snakes out and causing these problems" IS the most likely answer to your questions. If you stop cohabbing and continue to have problems, we can address that later - but just about everybody on here will tell you that the first step should be to give them their own homes as soon as possible.
 
I am also new to this, but wouldn't cohabit snakes because it seems to be generally accepted that it causes snakes stress. But I'm not going to lecture you about it because I'm in no way an expert.

I will however comment that my snake is almost always on his cold side or in his cold hide and I have never had a problem with feeding or shedding, and sometimes he comes out feeling very cold. Sometimes after eating, he'll spend some time in his warm hide for a bit but otherwise spends his time on the cold side.
 
JemmaUK said:
This is a two fold question...

Do different snakes always shed differently?

My Claudia shed about two days after I got her - perfect shed except for maybe the last inch or so, the shed skin in one piece and a little soak and gentle assistance got rid of the rest perfectly..

Bubbles was an unqualified disaster. He went into blue 4 days ago and yesterday tried to shed. All in all the skin broke 6 times and I ended up spending over half an hour gently helping him which didnt help my emotional state in the least and I am pretty sure he didnt enjoy it either. He was very flinchy by the time it was all done and I wasnt in the best of moods either because I felt like I was hurting him :( even though I was just being the rough surface for him to work against.

I dont understand why the difference between the two when they are in the same environment. :(

Both of them seem to hate the water with a passion...

Second part of the question and its involving Bubbles again. I check on them every morning when I get up. Just gently look at the hides to see where they are and see they are ok...

Well, this morning I found a Claudia all cosied up in the ex-webcam-holster fabric hide that they both seem to adore - but no Bubbles - I look under the big hide - no snake there either.

I eventually find him buried down the cool end of the viv in the paper (clue - even small snakes leave a big lump) and look to check on him. He seems fine so I gently pick him up.... and its like cuddling a mobile icicle... I dont think the water coming out of the taps feels colder than he did... so I am curious, how cold can they get before its dangerous for them and why would a snake want to let itself get so frozen?
Click to expand...

Sometimes sheds come off nicely, other times they don't. Not a HUGE thing to worry about as long as you get it all off.

Get a couple thermometers and a hygrometer like Janine suggested if you don't have them already, separate them, and see how things go.

As for snakes letting themselves get cold, they will only get as cold as you allow the cool side to be.

When my snake, Bijou, is not digesting, she hangs out in her cool hide and feels relatively cold to the touch, but remember, on average, human body temperature is about 98.6 degrees Farenheit, or 37 degrees Celcius, which makes temperatures below say, 70 or so, feel cool to the touch.

Unless you are living in an icebox, I don't think that your snake will freeze if he hangs out on the cool end of the viv, though you should monitor the temperatures on both ends if you don't already, the humidity, and as it has been previously suggested, separate them. :)
 
I forgot to add about shedding assistance. I placed my snake in a Tupperware container, with holes in the lid, and a damp washcloth. I checked every 15 minutes or so, and in about 45 minutes she had finished shedding on her own.
I'm not sure if pulling on the shed is painful or not, especially if it is not ready to come off, so I don't physically peel any skin off. I would think it would be best to let them accomplish it on their own also. :)
 
I will avoid the co-habbing part and say of my two dozen or so snakes, everyone sheds great and in one piece (plus or minus the tippy tip of the tail, which you ALWAYS need to check so they don't lose the actual tip of their tail) except one. One measley little guy sheds in a billion pieces and I have to let him sit in a tupperware with a damp rag on the day he decides to shed, probably for 30-45 minutes to get it off. While my snakes are all housed individually, they're all in the same environment. Sometimes they're just crappy shedders.

On the cohabbing part, I too kept my first two hatchlings together for the first couple years. I bought them both as hatchlings at an expo and was told by each of their breeders that it was fine to cohab. I never had any problems because of it, but have since learned it's not worth the risk to me.
 
Two of my pythons insist on staying on the cool side. It's their choice, that's why they have a cool side. As long as it's not below say 75*F, I think your little guy should be ok.
As far as the shed goes, I have a difficult shedder, I soak her in a rubbermaid tub for about 30-60 minutes and 'dry' her off in an old towel by letting her squeeze through my hands wrapped in it. The skin will usually peel off nicely onto the towel, kind of a PITA since little bits of wet shed skin does not like to come off the towel.
You may try a moist hide as well, I've done this in the past, a small container instead your viv with damp - not wet, moss in it. They goes 'soak' in the moss sauna during the shed cycle, it really seems to help loosen things up a bit (poo, too)
Best wishes!
 
on the shed issue i agree with all the suggestions that my fellow cornheads gave, the shoebox with the damp rag seems to always do the trick.

On the co-hab situation it seems to me that u will not learn your lesson until u have a bad situation like cannibalism happen to u, or a constantly regurgitating snake ( witch i do not wish on anybody) cuz i learned that painful lesson as kid with my first corns that i had, theirs nothing worst than coming home from school and finding that one of ur beloved pets ate the other and now are both dead...so please take the warnings of cohab as advice and not attacks towards ur person. Cuz everybody here wants whats best for ur snakies. so i wish u luck with ur shed issues.
 
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