Bioactive Naturalistic Setup

[daddio207]

That last part doesn't make sense, because the snake wouldn't have any idea what a wild environment is compared to a sterile lab environment as they were never in the wild to begin with.

The younger the snake the stronger the instinct. They are born programmed to survive. Sure many loose their fear of humans over time. Some revert back to instinct like my Moquards Beauty snake trying to bite me in the face yesterday. This is a snake that I take out at expo's to show off. I stopped feeding my adult 8-9 year old Tegu's FT mice because it was bringing out their instinct to kill. Teddy the tegu is very loving passive animal that I can hand feed but when he would have FT mice then he would become aggressive at times. Again it brought out the instinct born into him. So I'm just saying it is possible that the environment might bring out the instinct your corn snake.

 

[sian.kelly]

Sounds really interesting, hope your bio active tank goes well! Would love to see the finished product, I love bio active tanks [emoji1] I've never seen bio actives for corns, but I have seen them for some lizards/geckos/frogs and from what I've seen from the owner, they're really good and worthwhile if done well and made appropriate for the animal. I think your biggest problem will be humidity but if you get that sorted, then there's no reason not use one! Good to see your planning to set it up before you get a corn to monitor everything so good luck [emoji4]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[born2slither]

The younger the snake the stronger the instinct. They are born programmed to survive. Sure many loose their fear of humans over time. Some revert back to instinct like my Moquards Beauty snake trying to bite me in the face yesterday. This is a snake that I take out at expo's to show off. I stopped feeding my adult 8-9 year old Tegu's FT mice because it was bringing out their instinct to kill. Teddy the tegu is very loving passive animal that I can hand feed but when he would have FT mice then he would become aggressive at times. Again it brought out the instinct born into him. So I'm just saying it is possible that the environment might bring out the instinct your corn snake.

Do you believe that a snake that has never seen dirt or real plants will suddenly recognize them as being more natural when exposed to these plants? I dont, and it is not a motivating factor in my setup. these things are just objects whether its aspen or dirt, fake plants or real, or a hollowed out clown skull, its still just another object to them. I pretty much agree 100% with people who use simple lab type setups that are completely sterile in thinking there is no measurable difference in the snakes health once their living space is properly maintained.

I am not trying to justify the money, time, or effort by saying it will give my snake a more healthy environment. None of these things are a factor because if they where, i would not be getting a snake, and if i am unable to keep this environment at optimal levels i will completely go back to the drawing board until the desirable effects are met.

I have seen plenty of breeders and keepers alike use plastic tubs as their primary storage for their reptiles. And this seems to be an acceptable practice. And as i mentioned before, if i notice there are major issues with this setup i will move to a low tech setup until things are back in order.

 

[Distaff]

I grow as many multiples of a plant that I can. These are replacements for damage done by the snake, or the less than optimal environment. I now use 9watt Jungle Dawn LED's, but when I first started out, I just chose low light plants and switched them out every few days to get some time in better light.

There is a guy on BP.net who (I gather) switches out entire vivs for his ball python. Big heavy snakes are hard on the system. He has other bio-active vivs for other animals.
There was a thread a few months ago about the high cost of electricity borne by folks with lots of snakes in tanks, and lots of plants. Shrug... it is what it is. Ever ask a coral reef aquarium enthusiast what they spend on THAT hobby?

So yeah, it is more expensive, and way more work. I happen to enjoy that type of work. I happen to enjoy seeing my beautiful cornsnake in an extra large and pretty viv with living plants. I keep a green house, a garden, fruit and nut trees, milk goats, chickens and rabbits. We don't need to justify the things we enjoy.

 

[born2slither]

I grow as many multiples of a plant that I can. These are replacements for damage done by the snake, or the less than optimal environment. I now use 9watt Jungle Dawn LED's, but when I first started out, I just chose low light plants and switched them out every few days to get some time in better light.

There is a guy on BP.net who (I gather) switches out entire vivs for his ball python. Big heavy snakes are hard on the system. He has other bio-active vivs for other animals.
There was a thread a few months ago about the high cost of electricity borne by folks with lots of snakes in tanks, and lots of plants. Shrug... it is what it is. Ever ask a coral reef aquarium enthusiast what they spend on THAT hobby?

So yeah, it is more expensive, and way more work. I happen to enjoy that type of work. I happen to enjoy seeing my beautiful cornsnake in an extra large and pretty viv with living plants. I keep a green house, a garden, fruit and nut trees, milk goats, chickens and rabbits. We don't need to justify the things we enjoy.

This is the logic which seems to escape many keepers.. Actually, it escapes most people I've meet in my life.

My last project was a 5.5 gallon nano planted invertebrate aquarium. Which cost me close to $1000 total cost, hundreds of hours of my time and effort. People dont understand that work can be enjoyable, when you have an interest and enjoy what you do.

 

[daddio207]

Do you believe that a snake that has never seen dirt or real plants will suddenly recognize them as being more natural when exposed to these plants? I dont, and it is not a motivating factor in my setup. these things are just objects whether its aspen or dirt, fake plants or real, or a hollowed out clown skull, its still just another object to them. I pretty much agree 100% with people who use simple lab type setups that are completely sterile in thinking there is no measurable difference in the snakes health once their living space is properly maintained.

I am not trying to justify the money, time, or effort by saying it will give my snake a more healthy environment. None of these things are a factor because if they where, i would not be getting a snake, and if i am unable to keep this environment at optimal levels i will completely go back to the drawing board until the desirable effects are met.

I have seen plenty of breeders and keepers alike use plastic tubs as their primary storage for their reptiles. And this seems to be an acceptable practice. And as i mentioned before, if i notice there are major issues with this setup i will move to a low tech setup until things are back in order.

My point wasn't in relationship to the actual contents of a natural setup. It was that most tend to have many more hiding spots for the inhabitant(s). A snakes natural instinct is to hide and defend itself. Not because it is in a dirt and plant environment but because of the added features of most natural Vivs giving it a heightened sense of security.
I keep 20+ species of snakes so I do tend to answer without a certain species in mind. Specifically though it is my opinion that corn snakes are not the species to keep in Bio-active setups. That is based on my own actual experiences over 40+ years and not on google research.
As I stated right at the beginning of my post in relationship to this subject is that I am all for those setups and am planning one myself. After keeping amphibians and reptiles in them for decades I now have a better understanding which can thrive and which could have issues.

 

[born2slither]

My point wasn't in relationship to the actual contents of a natural setup. It was that most tend to have many more hiding spots for the inhabitant(s). A snakes natural instinct is to hide and defend itself. Not because it is in a dirt and plant environment but because of the added features of most natural Vivs giving it a heightened sense of security.
I keep 20+ species of snakes so I do tend to answer without a certain species in mind. Specifically though it is my opinion that corn snakes are not the species to keep in Bio-active setups. That is based on my own actual experiences over 40+ years and not on google research.
As I stated right at the beginning of my post in relationship to this subject is that I am all for those setups and am planning one myself. After keeping amphibians and reptiles in them for decades I now have a better understanding which can thrive and which could have issues.

I see, normally a basic setup has less hides which makes the snake more acustom to being out and let's it understand that it is safe from predation. Would this still be an issue with regular handling if a snake is raised from a Young age?

 

[Distaff]

My point wasn't in relationship to the actual contents of a natural setup. It was that most tend to have many more hiding spots for the inhabitant(s). A snakes natural instinct is to hide and defend itself. Not because it is in a dirt and plant environment but because of the added features of most natural Vivs giving it a heightened sense of security.
I keep 20+ species of snakes so I do tend to answer without a certain species in mind. Specifically though it is my opinion that corn snakes are not the species to keep in Bio-active setups. That is based on my own actual experiences over 40+ years and not on google research.
As I stated right at the beginning of my post in relationship to this subject is that I am all for those setups and am planning one myself. After keeping amphibians and reptiles in them for decades I now have a better understanding which can thrive and which could have issues.

Interesting. I misunderstood this post too.
I don't see the bio-active planted tanks as having to always be crowded with plants.

My cornsnake set-up is CareFresh bedding and plants in pots, it currently has only has two living plants. The rest is a bunch of hanging Spanish moss that gave up quickly. It is still pretty, and I've got some alive in the green house I haven't managed to do in yet - so, maybe I'll try adding some more when it grows a bit.)

The previous bio-active pyrex tray (with advised depths of gravel and ABG mix) that covered most of a 10 gal tank was primairly regular ground moss with some English ivy. As said before, that tray didn't work because first, the RHP dried it out too much in the tiny space (even though I sprayed twice daily), and second, the ground moss was inevitably tossed around by the kingsnake. I would like to try NE Herp's moss slurry, that you can grow on bark and branches. Even they recommend that you grow it and get it established before introducing it to the viv. It is beautiful in the pics.

The most frequent problems people post about on Dendroboard is substrate that got soggy. They either didn't allow for at least two inches of gravel/hydroton/etc. drainage, or they used the "egg crate" plastic grid, and the subsequent weight on top of it made the structure sag into the resevoir below. Misting systems may bring the water level up too high. Sometimes the only solution is for the keeper to muck out the entire mess and try again with new substrate and new plants, and an understanding of how to fix what caused the problem.

I look at it as a project that evolves, not something that is ever Finished.

 

[born2slither]

Im going to elaborate on my plans for this setup a bit further.. Any knowledge is helpful, even if you flat out disagree, please let me know how and what i can do to improve this.

Layers of substrate from the bottom up:

Very bottom: Aquarium gravel (approx. 1 in)
Coco Fiber (Eco Earth) approx. 1-1.5, Expanded and squeezed dry. Thinking about keeping this with a little moisture. *Need advice on this* From what i understand, the top level will primarily remain dry with occasional misting to maintain humidity when low. Someone posted that they ran a tube down to the bottom layer so they could feed water to the drainage layer, which would cause the moisture to permeate upwards into the substrate. Thereby, allowing the snake to burrow for moisture when needed.
Terra Firma Substrate (approx. 2-3 in) going to make some slight hills and such.
Dry Leaves(food for isopods and springtails)
Southern Palm bark(also food for my bugs, can make good hides/decor)
Equipment and decor (hides, vines,

Temperature is regulated with two thermostats connected to an uth and a ceramic bulb. One probe in the substrate between the coco fiber and the gravel, the other somewhere near the hot side probably mid height. I have a infrared thermometer to check different areas for basking and such.

I have a zoomed thermometer and humidity gauge, but ive read that these are not always accurate for measuring humidity. Going to look into alternatives. Any suggestions?

 

[Distaff]

Sounds like a large mass for a UTH to heat. It might work - I don't know. Can't see getting a "hot spot" with it more like a general warm area. Also, I wonder if that warmth would be trapped in the bottom with the saturated gravel, and not transmit up to the drier, loose substrate. As we are heading into summer, there is probably room for experimenting here, but I think most of your accessible will come from the CHE. You might consider an RHP instead: more efficient, lower profile, and less of a fire hazard.

Most sources would recommend you go deeper with the gravel, but as we are aiming for 100% humidity, that depth might be ok. Everything says you want to avoid soggy substrate at all costs - it is just hard to fix.

Don't know anything about Terra Firma's substrate, so can't say. My experience is with NE Herp's mix (a close ABG mimic) over pebbles. I'm not sure what size your gravel is - it will not provide good drainage if the grains are too small. I use pea-sized pebbles from Lowe's, and have also worked with explanded clay. The clay balls are very lightweight, and fairly large. Very effective. Drawbacks are the expense, and I find that shade of red to be an ugly colour if the layers are exposed behind the glass. There is an expanded glass product as well - can't remember the name, but that will be what I purchase when I cover my floor. The light weight is a big advantage.

You also NEED a screen or landscaping fabric or some sort of similar barrier between the gravel drainage layer and the substrate. It will get soggy otherwise. No one else does this, but for all my terrariums (I keep several small plant-only ones), I make a bag out of synthetic tulle net fabric, so that the gravel/hydroton bottom layer can just be lifted out when the terrarium is overhauled. Very easy to deal with, and the gravel layer remains clean and completely separate from the substrate.

(No time to proof-read...hope txt is ok. Will get back later with more.)

 

[Distaff]

Ok, sorry for that mess. I was referring to accessible heat from the CHE/RHP. Also, we are of course NOT aiming for 100% humidity.

...out of time!

 

[born2slither]

Sounds like a large mass for a UTH to heat. It might work - I don't know. Can't see getting a "hot spot" with it more like a general warm area. Also, I wonder if that warmth would be trapped in the bottom with the saturated gravel, and not transmit up to the drier, loose substrate. As we are heading into summer, there is probably room for experimenting here, but I think most of your accessible will come from the CHE. You might consider an RHP instead: more efficient, lower profile, and less of a fire hazard.

Most sources would recommend you go deeper with the gravel, but as we are aiming for 100% humidity, that depth might be ok. Everything says you want to avoid soggy substrate at all costs - it is just hard to fix.

Don't know anything about Terra Firma's substrate, so can't say. My experience is with NE Herp's mix (a close ABG mimic) over pebbles. I'm not sure what size your gravel is - it will not provide good drainage if the grains are too small. I use pea-sized pebbles from Lowe's, and have also worked with explanded clay. The clay balls are very lightweight, and fairly large. Very effective. Drawbacks are the expense, and I find that shade of red to be an ugly colour if the layers are exposed behind the glass. There is an expanded glass product as well - can't remember the name, but that will be what I purchase when I cover my floor. The light weight is a big advantage.

You also NEED a screen or landscaping fabric or some sort of similar barrier between the gravel drainage layer and the substrate. It will get soggy otherwise. No one else does this, but for all my terrariums (I keep several small plant-only ones), I make a bag out of synthetic tulle net fabric, so that the gravel/hydroton bottom layer can just be lifted out when the terrarium is overhauled. Very easy to deal with, and the gravel layer remains clean and completely separate from the substrate.

(No time to proof-read...hope txt is ok. Will get back later with more.)

Wish i knew about RHP sooner, just bought my CHE equipment today. Looks like RHP is the way to go, still need a bit more research on this though. The uth is mainly to heat the bottom of the tank to drive humidity upwards, it wont provide any substantial heat to the snake unless it is burrowing deep.

I thought optimal humidity is between 40-60%. Dunno where that 100% comes from.

You say you place a bag like material under the gravel layer? Could you explain this a bit further, and specifically how you did this, where i can get this, etc.

I was going to use coco fiber for the screen. Am i missing something here? This part is a bit confusing.

Thanks for your help.

 

[Distaff]

You are correct on humidity. See my post #31.
Agree on the UTH.
Don't worry about the CHE - it will do the job, and if you want a switch out later will be easy.

I place the gravel in the bag. I haven't used this, but a paint strainer net bag might work well here - the hydroponics people like them to keep the perilite (which is TOO light weight, and gets into everything) out of their water pipes. Everyone else (back to vivs) just uses a sheet some sort screening between the layers, but that gets messy around the edges (some people silicone the screen to the glass around the edges - sounds like a PITA!). Just easier at that point to put in a flat net bag, then, you can just lift the bag out later for any overhall, and it is all nicely contained - in my world, at least, no install is ever permanent.

The coco fiber I am familiar with comes loose sort of like peat. There may be other forms I haven't seen. To me, it is just a soil ammendment.

If you haven't yet, check the New England Herpetoculture site and Viv building 101, and 102. They give the basics, and Josh's frogs has similar info in a video format. I also like the threads on Dendroboard (IIRC, there are some good basic build threads - haven't been there for a while). Essentially, we are working with a simple recipie (spell?) here, and I've noticed a recent general consensus on what the basic elements are. (older sources give some different info, and that can get confusing.)

I also add some home compost to the ABG type mix. That stuff as is has very little food for the plants. You don't need a lot of compost, and you don't want to make the mix heavy, but you can of course get some more bio-activity this way, and I do think the plants benefit from the little bit of extra food. You want active growth in the plants (even if you have to trim), because the snake will be harder on the plants than dart frogs or gekos would be.

It seems silly to buy leaves, but magnolia and some oak species do seem to last much longer w/o breaking down. I have some sturdy persimmon leaves, but will probably just get a $5 package of suitable leaves. They are also sanitized, although that issue doesn't concern me as much as it seems to bother most people. I commonly put unsterilized wood, etc. in my vivs, and haven't had any problems. Some people even source the isopods (pill bugs) out of their own dirt.

 

[born2slither]

Update:

So i decided to mix in one brick of compressed coco fiber with the terra firma substrate, seems to hold moisture pretty well. The humidity seems to decrease slowly over time but with proper watering and misting, i can raise it to the desired level between 40-60%. However, I believe that corn snakes would prefer a moisture gradient, so i am still trying to get the moisture to come from below the substrate layer. This will most likely become more stable with substrate thickness. My corn was able to have a complete shed with no need for bathing.

The layers that i have decided to use are (from the bottom up):
Fish tank gravel (about 1 in)
A charcoal screen (found at lowes) has tiny holes to let water through (1mm thick)
terrafirma + coco fiber mix (1-2in deep)
dead leaves and palm bark

I figure keep it simple and also not so deep, which allows for burrowing but still has the ability to safely dig out the snake for feedings, cleaning, etc. The depth of the substrate will increase as the snakes size increases, to properly accommodate the burrow instinct safely.

Heating:
UTH Med - controlled by a thermostat set to 83F. The probe is above the substrate inside the warm hide. I figure the air temp is slightly lower than the ground temp.
I also have a radiant heat emitter from reptile basics hanging above the tank which provides infrared heat to surface areas. This is also on a thermostat, however the probe is set to coincide with the room temperature to provide additional heat should the ambient room temperature drop below 75F. Its been a long winter so the room temperature has been below 75F for a while, however the thermometer i have on the floor under the Infrared heater never seems to go above 85F.

My main concern involves cleaning, There seems to be a lot going on in this tank as there are over 5 hides in various locations throughout the tank, and a small water dish. There is not much exposed flat or open areas. I have heard that there should be some areas exposed. Not sure how the snake feels about this opinion, he seems to enjoy many hides. In any case, due to the small size of this juvenile (40g), finding poop to spot clean seems to be an issue. Although, one several occasions he has defecated when being handled outside his tank, and there are no foul odors coming from the tank. Its possible he has not defecated in the tank yet. I imagine that if you eat once a week that you would defecate once a week or longer.

After making many small adjustments, i have to believe that the corn is happy being able to move from one hide to another completely underground, and to my knowledge the substrate hasn't been soiled yet. However, this may change as time goes on so i will continue to monitor the substrate and thoroughly check it for feces and mold every week.

I have used only 10% of the total substrate that i have, so i have room to experiment. Once the snake approaches adult weight, the depth of the substrate will increase.

 

[Distaff]

Sounds good. I also wonder about "open space." Mine just cruises over anything in the way, and the enclosure has three hides, and five magnetic ledges on the walls for climbing. This snake spends most of his time basking on a perch under the RHP. Makes for a nice display.

I installed the substrates for this enclosure last week. I sewed a net bag out of window screen to completely encase the light weight drainage layer (an expanded glass product that weighs almost nothing). This viv, empty, weighs 70lbs, so, I did not want the usual heavy pea gravel that I use in small terrariums. That base layer is approx. 1 1/2 inches high. I used six one-gallon bags of a lower humidity amphibian safe pre-mixed substrate for the top layer. That is about 2 1/2 inches high. Some plants were set in with pots, and others are planted directly in this layer. What ever plants don't survive will get replaced with something else. I'm not attached, but so far so good.

Good luck with your set-up.

 

[born2slither]

Sounds good. I also wonder about "open space." Mine just cruises over anything in the way, and the enclosure has three hides, and five magnetic ledges on the walls for climbing. This snake spends most of his time basking on a perch under the RHP. Makes for a nice display.

I installed the substrates for this enclosure last week. I sewed a net bag out of window screen to completely encase the light weight drainage layer (an expanded glass product that weighs almost nothing). This viv, empty, weighs 70lbs, so, I did not want the usual heavy pea gravel that I use in small terrariums. That base layer is approx. 1 1/2 inches high. I used six one-gallon bags of a lower humidity amphibian safe pre-mixed substrate for the top layer. That is about 2 1/2 inches high. Some plants were set in with pots, and others are planted directly in this layer. What ever plants don't survive will get replaced with something else. I'm not attached, but so far so good.

Good luck with your set-up.

These magnetic ledges sound interesting, I will have to look into that.

Yeah i used something similar to the window screen, but i just layed it on the drainage layer. I wish i had more crafting skills to sew this into a bag.I feel like that would make my life way easier.

Can you give me more info on this expanded glass product?

how large is your snake (height) if your top layer is only 2.5 inches?

The plants will have to wait. as far as i can tell they are mainly for aesthetics and dont actually lend anything to the bioactive setup other than maybe a few dead leaves over a good span of time. Right now that would be just another variable that would complicate things. Also still need to do some further research to select the right plants.

I am culturing the isopods and springtails in a separate container in order to protect them from dying out completely if the substrate looses its moisture too fast.

 

[Distaff]

Magnaturals makes the ledges. Pet stores sell them, and you can get them on Amazon and New England Herpetoculture. (You can also get the light weight drainage layer at NE Herp - Josh's Frogs probably has an equivalent too, but I haven't checked.) These ledges were originally sold for geckos, but the magnets are very strong, and you can get more magnets to add for a heavier snake such as a grown ball python. The ledges themselves are foam faux rock, so don't weigh much at all. I don't use any heavy rocks in my vivs - not safe for the glass, nor the animal.

A single layer of screen layer on top of the drainage gravel is the standard method. I just prefer mine all enclosed for easier clean outs. Not planning to re-do this viv any time soon, but sometimes I change my mind. I also think the bag will better discourage the snake from burrowing.

The snake is 230 grams, and about 34 inches long. I have extra bags of substrate if it looks like he needs it, but so far, that amount looks about right.

Plants are not necessary. I just happen to prefer adding them. I have a ton anyway - the viv is just a handy excuse to collect more.