Breeding at 18 mo?

[vovalyosha]

This past weekend, I went to the Lone Star Reptile Expo and saw this Lavender male. If I had to guess, I would say he was a little over two years. I say this because I have one who will be two in January and he isn't as big. I asked the guy about him, thinking it would give me a jumpstart into my Lavender project. He was TEN MONTHS. He said he didn't power feed him at all. I was still confused for a moment, and he went on to say that you can breed corn snakes at 18 months. :uhoh:

When he said this, it was weird. I thought females had to be 300g before breeding. Is it possible for a 10 month old corn snake to be larger around than those huge black sharpies? Is it even possible to breed at 18 months?

 

[BloodyBaroness]

Males can breed younger than females. Some people do it with success, depends on the snake in question. Full grown females can injure or kill younger/smaller males. There was a thread on the forum somewhere about a female killing a male.

Females should never be bred under 300 grams. Period. You risk egg binding and death.

People who bred small are normally in a rush to breed for all the wrong reasons.

 

[Christen]

I agree with Autumn 100% and as for your question on size. Yes it is possible for a baby to be that big. My yearlings this year were all different sizes but they ranges from 30 grams to 120 grams. Different snakes just grow at different rates even if you aren't feeding them any different.

 

[AliCat37]

Owl was less than 2 years when I bred him. I think he was around 18 months? He weighed 250 grams at the time, and the female was probably around 400 (I never weighed her, I just knew she was breeding size and over 3 years). I made sure to watch though, just incase the bit of size difference was too much.

 

[Jim Godfrey]

Males will breed if they are mature enough with no ill effects. Is that your cat, Autumn?

 

[dave partington]

a female cornsnake can be bred at 300 grams, just like a human female can be bred at 12 years old. Just because something can be done at the minimal size doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

 

[Christen]

Well put Dave.

 

[Mark Dwight]

I’ve had very small males successfully father fertile clutches at only 6 months of age. But I don’t recommend this because of the greater chance of low or zero fertility. And there is a small chance of the female harming the male. Females are a whole different story and only should be bred when fully mature, very well fed, filled out, and 3 feet+ in size. Many breeders have had egg binding issues when breeding small females...so, the bigger the better.

But here is the odd thing. Many wild caught females MUCH smaller than 3 feet have been found that were gravid...and went on to lay good clutches with no problems. In fact, I’ve never heard of a gravid wild caught having a binding problem. On another site I recently saw a really tiny (20 inch) S. Florida wild caught that had a good clutch of small fertile eggs with no problems. And many wild caught females in the 28”-30” range have been found gravid and had eggs with no binding problems. So, why do small captive females have egg binding issues but wild females apparently don’t? I don’t know. I’ve read that some think that lack of exercise may be part of the problem for captives..and this very well could be. Or age could be the real issue here. Wild snakes may not get regular meals like they do in captivity so grow much slower...and they hibernate in the colder parts of their range too so this slows down growth even more. It may be that those small wild caught females are really quite old. It may be that it takes many years (5+) for some wild females to get to breeding size. Many snake breeders think that maturity in snakes is only dependent on size and not age. But I’m starting to see things a little differently. If wild caught females are any indication I looks like proper exercise and age are just as important as size.

 

[BloodyBaroness]

Males will breed if they are mature enough with no ill effects. Is that your cat, Autumn?

It is Jim! That is Onyx my Cornish Rex. You guys have to get up here and see the house and critters some day.

a female cornsnake can be bred at 300 grams, just like a human female can be bred at 12 years old. Just because something can be done at the minimal size doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

Very well said Dave.

 

[vovalyosha]

Males can breed younger than females. Some people do it with success, depends on the snake in question. Full grown females can injure or kill younger/smaller males. There was a thread on the forum somewhere about a female killing a male.

Females should never be bred under 300 grams. Period. You risk egg binding and death.

People who bred small are normally in a rush to breed for all the wrong reasons.

I pretty much have gone by the rule of 3 years & 300g for females at the absolute minimum, and males around two years. the concept is too foreign for me to comprehend. Why would you risk possible death?

 

[BloodyBaroness]

Umm... I'm saying NOT to breed females under 300 grams. You have much higher chance of the snake egg binding and dying. Which is going by the standard size rules.

We must be having a communication issue of some sort.

 

[vovalyosha]

No no, I understand what you are saying. I was just saying that I have never bred a female under 300 grams. Oh, I am confused..

 

[BloodyBaroness]

Let me try once more.

When he said this, it was weird. I thought females had to be 300g before breeding. Is it possible for a 10 month old corn snake to be larger around than those huge black sharpies? Is it even possible to breed at 18 months?

Yes, females need to be at least 300 grams to breed safely.
Yes, it is possible for a male to breed under 3 years and 300 grams. A lot of factors weigh on if the breeding will be successful or not. Most times it is not really worth the risk if they are very different in size from the female.

 

[Tom Tuttle]

Let me try once more.



Yes, females need to be at least 300 grams to breed safely.
Yes, it is possible for a male to breed under 3 years and 300 grams. A lot of factors weigh on if the breeding will be successful or not. Most times it is not really worth the risk if they are very different in size from the female.

Age is more important in males than weight. Most males are mature enough and generally up to the task at 18 months. Fireman sired 4 healthy clutches this season at 120gr. The 18 month male peppermint sired 5 clutches.


Fireman and his 800 gr date

 

[DragonsDenSerpents]

Had to laugh at that last pic of Fireman, Tom. :laugh: She must've been a very gentle girl, he's so tiny in comparison!

 

[Mark Dwight]

On another site I recently saw a really tiny (20 inch) S. Florida wild caught that had a good clutch of small fertile eggs with no problems.

Just thought I'd post a pic of a 20 inch female and her eggs/babies. The eggs in the first pic are only about the size of a dime. In the last pic the wild produced babies have been placed with a captive produced baby. The snakes and pics belong to Dan @ dts herps (and used with his permission.)

This female is small but Dan has found gravid corn snakes even smaller...as small as 15 inches in total length! And although not common he finds gravid corns in the 15 to 18 inch range. He has told me that in the area where this 20 inch female was found that food for corn snakes is very rare...no mice for example...and anoles are the only food source available. Corn snakes in this area must grow very slow.

 

[bitsy]

Corn snakes in this area must grow very slow.

I think you're right and those are very small full-age adults, rather than being standard-sized juveniles. So they're fully-formed internally and in the right condition to lay.

 

[Mark Dwight]

I think you're right and those are very small full-age adults, rather than being standard-sized juveniles. So they're fully-formed internally and in the right condition to lay.

Another hint that these small corns have some real age is that they have developed the "dark wash" that takes years to develop.
I can't even imagine a captive corn having eggs at this size. :eek1: I wait till mine are about 40 inches and VERY heavy to breed.

 

[Mark Dwight]

they're fully-formed internally and in the right condition to lay.

You hit the nail on the head. Internal sexual development has nothing to do with outward overall size....PROPER sexual development takes time...not food. Yes, you can get young corns to reproduce, but in doing so you may also kill them.

 

[diamondlil]

Another hint that these small corns have some real age is that they have developed the "dark wash" that takes years to develop.
I can't even imagine a captive corn having eggs at this size. :eek1: I wait till mine are about 40 inches and VERY heavy to breed.

When you say very heavy, though, personally I keep my females quite lean, so they are toned and fit rather than big and squishy. I'd rather have smaller clutches than risk a fat corn to egg-binding