Breeding my female

[princess]

My thoughts on the topic....

I don't have the original Cornsnake manual in front of me but if you have it handy, there are a couple of pages there with breeding data (eggs per clutch, hatchlings per clutch, clutches per female, etc,) for a few years. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think 200g is the minimum weight stated there isn't it?

My rule is the 3 x 3 rule but it can be tweaked...for example. I have an 18 month old female ghost who gets fed moderately (1 adult mouse each 5-7 days) and is a great grower. I bought her as an 11 month old at the weight of 124g when she was getting 1 hopper a week. She is in her pre-bru-conditioning now and will be bred next spring. She's about 4 and a bit feet long and weighed 334g when I weighed her on the 1st of Septeember.

I have an anery female who is about the same age and on the same feeding schedule and weighs not even ½ what she does.

My 16 month old female snow is in the same boat as the ghost. 16 moths, 4 feet long and 336g as of the first of september.

Both of these bigger females are over the 300g and 3 foot part but are under the 3 year part and I judge them as good candidates for their first mating attemps in 3 months time.

 

[Roy Munson]

Does reading threads on this forum count for nothing then?

I guess it depends on what you read and who posted it. You may end up housing ten hatchlings from multiple sources together, bathing your snakes daily, attempting to feed your corns crickets, moving your 12 inch snake up to fuzzies (without regard to gram weight), fearing the imminent death of your pets, or any number of things depending on what you read and who posted it.

Most of the stuff I know is from reading the Corn Snake manual and reading the forum.

But I'll bet that now that you have more hands-on experience, the stuff you read makes more sense to you and allows you to make more qualified recommendations to other posters. A lot of the posters I'm thinking about haven't even read Kathy's manual, or if they did, they retained none of it. It's apparent from their posts (and I'm not necessarily referring to posters in this thread).

Are you saying that someone who has only had 5 successful feedings, but studies religiously all the information they can get their hands on, should not try to help someone else because they have never actually had the problem themselves?[/

I'm saying that these people should be careful to preface their remarks with some indication that they have no real experience with the problem themselves, but that this is what they've read. At the very least they could word their posts less authoritatively, and check their facts before posting. Sometimes there is a chastising, "final word" component to their posts that I find distasteful. It's like a single guy with one nephew trying to tell a mother of four how they should be guiding their childrens' development.

Again, I don't mean to offend. I'm just expressing the opinion to which I'm entitled...

 

[Roy Munson]

I don't have the original Cornsnake manual in front of me but if you have it handy, there are a couple of pages there with breeding data (eggs per clutch, hatchlings per clutch, clutches per female, etc,) for a few years. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think 200g is the minimum weight stated there isn't it?

Good memory. Yes, in '97 the minimum breeding weight is listed as 200g. They bumped it to 240g in '98, but made allowances for "husky but slightly smaller individuals, based on personal inspection". I have the manual in front of me- my memory isn't that good.

There aren't many out there who have Kathy's level of experience.

 

[Serpwidgets]

300g is a good general rule, but not all corns grow to the same size/weight. Some are naturally thinner, some are naturally shorter. Also, some lay huge eggs, and some lay much smaller eggs. I'd say the smallest eggs I get are probably half the size of the largest. I'll have to weigh some eggs next year and see what kind of masses they have.

Also, I do not believe that being bred too early stunts their growth. I've never seen a shred of evidence suggesting this to be true. This sounds to me like the old "if you inbreed them you will hatch out corns with two heads" type of story.

I think it really comes down to knowing the individual female, what egg-size tendencies she might have, how much of her mass is actual "body" instead of just excess fat, how much of her nutrients she will invest in a clutch, and other factors that can't just be pinned down to a simple measurement.

But, at the same time, if you wait till they're 300g or 3 years old (as long as they're not ridiculously small, like 80g) then you should be OK until you have gained enough experience to make those judgement calls yourself.

 

[jzal8]

Yea I thought I had read 200g's as the min. I've seen it written in a few places, darned if I can remember where though. No harm in allowing them to surpass that weight though for sure.

 

[Mary-Beth]

I guess it depends on what you read and who posted it. You may end up housing ten hatchlings from multiple sources together, bathing your snakes daily, attempting to feed your corns crickets, moving your 12 inch snake up to fuzzies (without regard to gram weight), fearing the imminent death of your pets, or any number of things depending on what you read and who posted it.



But I'll bet that now that you have more hands-on experience, the stuff you read makes more sense to you and allows you to make more qualified recommendations to other posters. A lot of the posters I'm thinking about haven't even read Kathy's manual, or if they did, they retained none of it. It's apparent from their posts (and I'm not necessarily referring to posters in this thread).

Then it seems your problem is with people who have no knowledge trying to give others advice, not inexperienced people.

I'm saying that these people should be careful to preface their remarks with some indication that they have no real experience with the problem themselves, but that this is what they've read. At the very least they could word their posts less authoritatively, and check their facts before posting. Sometimes there is a chastising, "final word" component to their posts that I find distasteful. It's like a single guy with one nephew trying to tell a mother of four how they should be guiding their childrens' development.

LOL! I can think of an experienced keeper here that regularly posts authoritative, chastising, "final word" type posts.... and he's wrong sometimes too. Maybe we should ask him to put a warning at the beginning of his posts as well!

Again, I don't mean to offend. I'm just expressing the opinion to which I'm entitled...

None taken. I just love a nice calm debate once in a while. :cheers:

 

[Roy Munson]

Then it seems your problem is with people who have no knowledge trying to give others advice, not inexperienced people.

Well, yeah... but there's more to it than that. If you don't have the experience to judge the quality of your "knowledge", then it may be worthless. If you don't really know if the info you're giving me is valid, then you should be hesitant to offer it. If you're pretty sure it's valid because you've read about it in a bunch of places, say that.

LOL! I can think of an experienced keeper here that regularly posts authoritative, chastising, "final word" type posts.... and he's wrong sometimes too. Maybe we should ask him to put a warning at the beginning of his posts as well!

But how do you know that he is wrong sometimes? Maybe your EXPERIENCE tells you? Maybe other EXPERIENCED keepers call him out? I doubt he's being called out by a guy who bought his first and only corn in August. :santa:

None taken. I just love a nice calm debate once in a while. :cheers:

I enjoy it too. :cheers:

 

[Mary-Beth]

But how do you know that he is wrong sometimes? Maybe your EXPERIENCE tells you? Maybe other EXPERIENCED keepers call him out? I doubt he's being called out by a guy who bought his first and only corn in August. :santa:

:grin01: Good point.

 

[princess]

Roy I have to agree with you somewhat here.

Mary-Beth, there's a newb (in such an extreme sense of the word that they don't even own, nor have they ever owned a corn) who regularly dishes out advice on everything from viv size and what size to feed, to genetics advice and regurge treatment and all they're doing is regurgitating information they've read here. If I were to buy a book about cornsnakes, I would so much rather get one from someone who has 20 years of 'real' experience and good knowledge, than someone who has just read a whole lot but has never owned one of these creatures.

Put yourself in the shoes of a scared newbie with a snake problem...turning to this site for advice and being told what to do by someone with no actual experience.

Would you rather be taught to drive by someone who had never sat in a car but read all the books out there, or someone with 20 years of competent driving experience and skill?

 

[Mary-Beth]

Something else about this whole "experience" comment that bothers me is that even if someone has been through something - a regurge for example - that does not mean that they handled it properly. What if they fed the snake again the next day because it must be hungry after throwing up, and then went on to tell someone else how to take care of a regurge? They would have been through it, but I bet most people that read here even just a little bit would know how to handle it better, even if they have never been through it.

JMO

 

[cornsnakekid92]

eveything mostally(like this) are thing that i have read that have worked for some keepers, i am not saying that this is what they need to do or should do, it is just what has worked for others, and is somthing that they could try if they wanted.

 

[Roy Munson]

Something else about this whole "experience" comment that bothers me is that even if someone has been through something - a regurge for example - that does not mean that they handled it properly. What if they fed the snake again the next day because it must be hungry after throwing up, and then went on to tell someone else how to take care of a regurge? They would have been through it, but I bet most people that read here even just a little bit would know how to handle it better, even if they have never been through it.

JMO

That is valid. But most experienced keepers have had a few regurges, and worked through them. And if the experienced guy who handled his regurges incorrectly posts his incorrect methods here, a lot of posters are going to jump on it. But if a guy who bought his first and only snake in August, who has never seen a regurge chimes in with: "You should never...", I'm ignoring him. And if I really need to know about regurges, I'll do a search in the Health Issues/ Feeding Problems forum, and look at the opinions of the experienced keepers (especially the commercial breeders) who have consistently given information about other topics that has been in line with my own experience and the experiences of established authorities (e.g. K. Love, Rich Z.).

 

[Quigs]

Boy...this thread drifted.

I'd just like to say...

I concur! :bang:

Q

 

[Mary-Beth]

That is valid. But most experienced keepers have had a few regurges, and worked through them. And if the experienced guy who handled his regurges incorrectly posts his incorrect methods here, a lot of posters are going to jump on it. But if a guy who bought his first and only snake in August, who has never seen a regurge chimes in with: "You should never...", I'm ignoring him. And if I really need to know about regurges, I'll do a search in the Health Issues/ Feeding Problems forum, and look at the opinions of the experienced keepers (especially the commercial breeders) who have consistently given information about other topics that has been in line with my own experience and the experiences of established authorities (e.g. K. Love, Rich Z.).

What if the inexperienced person got their information from reading posts where Kathy Love answered questions? I just don't understand how you can ignore someone who's trying to help just because they haven't been through it themselves.

I choose to ignore people based on what they say or their intelligence, not if they've had the misfortune to have had my particular problem or not.

 

[Roy Munson]

eveything mostally(like this) are thing that i have read that have worked for some keepers, i am not saying that this is what they need to do or should do, it is just what has worked for others, and is somthing that they could try if they wanted.

(emphasis mine)

Really? Well, in the partial post I pasted below, from earlier in the thread, your words indicate that people should avoid breeding a female too young because it can stunt their growth. Where did you read this from other keepers? I'm not saying no one ever posted it, but I wonder where the evidence is for the statement. You're so emphatic about the accuracy of the statement that you end your comment with an exclamation mark. You seem to be writing with real authority, especially when you use an exclamation mark. So I have to ask, have you ever witnessed stunted growth among the females that you've bred too early?

You don't have to worry anyway. I don't mean to beat up on you, but your pidgin English takes most of the authority away from your posts anyway. I've seen a few of your posts recently that were pretty sound in terms of both syntax and spelling, but you seem to be slipping again. I've seen that you can do it, why can't you do it consistently? (Takes off coach's cap.)

if you breed a female too young it can stunt there growth!

 

[Roy Munson]

What if the inexperienced person got their information from reading posts where Kathy Love answered questions? I just don't understand how you can ignore someone who's trying to help just because they haven't been through it themselves.

Mary-Beth, are you deliberately misunderstanding me? I welcome the post if it reads: "Kathy Love just commented on this very issue in another thread. She said...." But if it reads: "Don't ever do this. This can lead to...", and the poster bought his first and only snake last month, I'd rather he just posted a link to her comments, or refrained from posting about the topic altogether.

I choose to ignore people based on what they say or their intelligence, not if they've had the misfortune to have had my particular problem or not.

Whatever works for you. I choose to ignore people who assume authority on subjects in which they have little real experience. If you want to know the details of the plotline in "The Empire Strikes Back", do you ask the kid who just saw it last week, but has read a ton about it on StarWars.com, or do you ask the guy who's seen it two hundred times AND has read a ton about it on StarWars.com? See? Most of the EXPERIENCED keepers here have done it all AND read all about it too. In fact, I'll bet they've read a whole lot more than the guy who bought his first corn last month. I'll seek their opinions, most of which are already established in existing threads on this forum. And I'll continue to ignore (as best I can) the opinions of those who assume authority, but have nothing to back it up.

 

[Mary-Beth]

Mary-Beth, are you deliberately misunderstanding me?

Nope.

Whatever works for you. I choose to ignore people who assume authority on subjects in which they have little real experience. If you want to know the details of the plotline in "The Empire Strikes Back", do you ask the kid who just saw it last week, but has read a ton about it on StarWars.com, or do you ask the guy who's seen it two hundred times AND has read a ton about it on StarWars.com? See? Most of the EXPERIENCED keepers here have done it all AND read all about it too. In fact, I'll bet they've read a whole lot more than the guy who bought his first corn last month. I'll seek their opinions, most of which are already established in existing threads on this forum. And I'll continue to ignore (as best I can) the opinions of those who assume authority, but have nothing to back it up.

My point is that the kid that saw the movie last week would be able to give you good information, sure maybe not as much of it as the other guy, but it would be good info none the less.

 

[cornsnakekid92]

OK OK i will not post anymore with using spell check, and i was only giving the advice they should not not breed not telling them they shouldnot. and no i haven't

 

[Roy Munson]

My point is that the kid that saw the movie last week would be able to give you good information, sure maybe not as much of it as the other guy, but it would be good info none the less.

I get what you're saying, and I don't disagree. But I always want the best information I can get. That is most likely to come from the experienced guy. And if the guy who's seen E.S.B. once is in a room full of guys who've seen it two hundred times, I would expect him to carefully select which opinions to throw out- otherwise he will look like a fool or a parrot. My best advice to him would be to mostly ask questions, and to give opinions sparingly until he has more experience himself.

 

[Quigs]

OK OK i will not post anymore with using spell check

You mean to tell us you were using it before?

and i was only giving the advice they should not not breed not telling them they shouldnot. and no i haven't

Huh??? :shrugs:

Please take Serp's advice (from another recent thread) and actually re-read your post outloud to yourself before you click the submit button. This along with spell check should help you out greatly!

Q