Broken belly scales

[WaterRaven]

Hey Everyone,

Long time no see!

It looks like my Shaza has some holes/broken scales on his underside. His sheds have been close to perfect, if not perfect, and yet I've noticed a crackling sound when he moves around sometimes and upon further inspection, I spotted some holes or broken edges on his tummy.

Interestingly enough, the black pine snake at my work has this as well, but more advanced. Both of them, the pine snake and my corn shed well this last time and the problem appears to be better, but I see some areas where Shaza may start to have problems again and the situation with the pine snake, though improved, is still there.

At first I saw this post:
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81210

And I suspected the scale rot, however neither of them have any hint of sores, just the broken scales.

A co-worker suggests that this is from the amount of handling the snakes are getting. At work we do presentations with our animals for schools and at the museum, so she suspects constantly readjusting the snake while holding it for the kids is wearing on the scales.

I am thinking it is environmental, but neither of us are sure.

Any help here would be most appreciated! Thank you very much!

~Sarah

P.S. The enclosures for Shaza and the Pine snake are realtively dry, but Shaza has a dish he can completely submerge in as well as a humidity hide just before and during shed (which is removed once he has shed). The pines are misted every morning, but I am not sure about the humidity hides (I have just started there and am still learning the ropes of the place)

 

[Roy Munson]

When I tried Carefresh substrate once, this happened to a snow corn I owned. That stuff just seemed to suck the ambient humidity out of the air. I think you need to figure out a way to boost ambient humidity, and make sure that your substrate isn't leeching moisture from the air or snake. I've never had a problem with aspen. No lamps. Control humidity by water bowl placement in proximity to an under-tank heater and by limiting ventilation.

Good luck!

 

[WaterRaven]

Thank you so much

Shaza is in a 20-25 gal long tank with aspen substrate, an UTH and he has a bowl placed between the cool side and the warm side. He has 3 hides, one on the cool and two on the warm (one being a large vine he can hide in.

He's a little over a year now

I was considering two options:

1) misting one side of the enclosure once a day
2) switching to a carpet bottom, without shavings to see if its substrate. I was considering something like this:

http://media.photobucket.com/image/carpet bottoms for snake enclosures/kyahbean/Gecko/gecko_cage.jpg

What do you think?

Thanks again

 

[Roy Munson]

I don't like that carpet stuff. I'd stick with aspen.

I'd move the water bowl a little farther toward the warm side. I'd also block 75% of the screen-top with plastic (or some other non-porous material) to limit moisture loss from evaporation. I might mist him every few days until the condition clears, but I think you should concentrate on boosting the enclosure humidity. Good luck!

 

[WaterRaven]

I don't like that carpet stuff. I'd stick with aspen.

I'd move the water bowl a little farther toward the warm side. I'd also block 75% of the screen-top with plastic (or some other non-porous material) to limit moisture loss from evaporation. I might mist him every few days until the condition clears, but I think you should concentrate on boosting the enclosure humidity. Good luck!

Thank you, that's wonderful advise. I was not too wild about the carpet idea myself, but it was a suggestion on a website while I was researching earlier. Also I was concerned that if I misted him too much, I would end up with the opposite problem and get something like scale rot D:

Again, thank you so much! I'll let you know if(when!) things improve

 

[LBoz]

This same advice (from this same member) worked really well for me for my boa. He had a horrible shed, so I blocked off a LOT of the ventilation (I drilled way too many holes) and moved his water bin closer to his warm side. I've had perfect sheds ever since. Good luck with your little one. :cheers:

 

[WaterRaven]

This same advice (from this same member) worked really well for me for my boa. He had a horrible shed, so I blocked off a LOT of the ventilation (I drilled way too many holes) and moved his water bin closer to his warm side. I've had perfect sheds ever since. Good luck with your little one. :cheers:

Thank you very much, I am so glad things worked out with your boa!

I am looking forward to having a sleek and healthy friend once again

 

[bitsy]

And I suspected the scale rot, however neither of them have any hint of sores, just the broken scales.

You don't always get sores with scale rot - mine didn't. Yours sounds like classic scale rot to me - any chance of a pic to be sure?

A co-worker suggests that this is from the amount of handling the snakes are getting.

Not necessarily. Mine got scale rot and I handle her once a fortnight, max. However...

Interestingly enough, the black pine snake at my work has this as well, but more advanced.

That rang an alarm bell. Scale rot is fungal and is transmissible. Could be passed between snakes at work if they're handled by the same people. Could also be getting home on you.

I'd treat it as though it's scale rot. - sounds like it to me. Quarantine, hospital setup (newspaper substrate & minimal easy-clean cage furniture), disinfect setup every other day, absolute hygiene, no sharing equipment, disinfect hands before and after handling. Wipe the snake down with an antifungal every other day - in the UK my vet recommended Bettadine, but don't know the US equivalent.

Higher humidity makes it worse (gives the fungus a better environment), so keep the water bowl small until they've recovered. Try to avoid using humid hides for shedding if possible and no misting.

Conflicting opinions! Sorry...

 

[WaterRaven]

Bitsy,

Hey, thanks for the response and yes, very conflicting!

Well, I do not handle the black pine snake yet, I have not been turned over yet (still new, I'm hopin' though!) So I don't see scale rot being transmitted to Shaza. We wash our hands frequently at work as well.

Not to mention, at work the enclosures are normally quite dry and isn't scale rot caused by too much humidity? Are there other causes? Dirty conditions? I think his enclosure is in good condition, but I washed everything today, changed his aspen shavings and wiped the cage down with water/vinegar solution, just to be sure.

And we do have bettadine

I'll forward this information to my co-worker and see if we can't get a photo of her belly scales. Shaza only seems to have one questionable spot, I'll see if I can get a photo of it tomorrow when there's more natural light.

He feels a lot smoother (he was in the tub today as well) and isn't making crackling sounds.

Thanks again! Much to think about!

 

[bitsy]

Sounds like whatever-it-is, is on the mend anyhoo! "Crackling" really describes how my girl felt and sounded.

 

[WaterRaven]

I'll try to get some photos today and I thought I should add, we had Phantom looked at by a vet and the vet did not even suggest scale rot... which I think is strange because the breaking scales are typical of it. Then again... they may have looked at the hygrometer and seen how dry the enclosures are.

I think our vet is more interested (or focused) in our mammals and birds (we have African servals, birds of prey like eagles and owls etc).

Which is a shame, because I think it goes to show that some vets are not as well rounded as they should be. Considering how popular herps are as pets these days it is somewhat ridiculous that you cannot find a herp vet easy or that if you do go to one, it's outrageously expensive.

But this is all speculation and personal observation... perhaps I could start a community rant in a different section

Thanks again for the advise everyone

 

[WaterRaven]

Well, hate to bring it up again... but... Shaza seemed to be improving for a while there, however his scales are still dry.

I have covered 2/3 of the screen above his enclosure to keep humidity in and have sprayed the warm side of his enclosure every morning for some time now, but he still feels so dry. I have noticed minor breaks again as well.

He is about to shed and I am considering this product:

Repti Shed Aid

His sheds are perfect, nothing sticks to him, so I am not concerned about shedding, but the product says it's effective between sheds and I am thinking it will help retain moisture.

He has a large dish that he can fully submerge in, that's on the warm side for either a warm bath or to encourage humidity... and I would prefer not to keep a humidity hide in there all of the time, because that could lead to other problems if he stays in it all of the time.

A friend who has kept many reptiles recommended a non-scented mineral oil to help keep the moisture in and said there are also oils made specifically for reptiles, I am just having a hard time finding one. The above product was the closest I have found.

Comments, concerns, suggestions?

 

[wstphal]

I am SO not a snake expert, but I do see one thing I think I can comment on. Mineral oils can be dangerous to many mammals (and I am pretty sure it's the same for birds) if ingested, largely because of the risk the mineral oil will get in the lungs where it can cause serious problems. So I can't imagine they are good for snakes either.

 

[WaterRaven]

Hey,

Thanks for the input. That's definitely something I would want to know. I'll keep looking into an oil or medication specifically for snakes or reptiles with dry scales.

Thank you again