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Bug eyed-ness

Skyespirit86

New member
What causes it? Is it inherited, and if so is it's mode of inheritance known? People say not to breed such a snake, but does it actually affect their health? I am wondering after thinking about things which affect a snake's physical shape, instead of just colour/pattern mutations. What with the rise of scaleless snakes.
 
I've never seen bug eyes in Cornsnakes. I've seen it in (albino) boas and (luecistic) texas rat snakes. The reason for not breeding (usually by culling the defective offspring) is to prevent the defect from being spread in the gene pool. Bug eyes aren't a good thing, so I'm not sure why someone would want to breed for it.
 
Good Day

I have a pair of Leucistic Texas Rats, I would not class the Bug Eyes as an abnormality because when they mate, all the babies are bug eyed. Those big blue bugged out eyes are gorgeous. If it was some sort of abnormality then surely only some of the offspring would be bugeyed. I have yet to see a non bug eyed Leucistic Texas Rat and am of the opinion that by breeding to get them you just have to live with the bug eyedness.

Just my 2 bits worth.

Ciao
 
Leucistic Texas ratsnakes without the bug-eyes are actually VERY common. Are you sure what you are describing isn't NORMAL eyes that just look bugged because they are white? True bug-eyed texas ratsnakes looked like someone stepped on their heads! They were like a startles looking Trans Pecos ratsnake. Ever seen those hatchlings that are hydrocephalic so that the fluid pushes the eyes partially out of the socket? Well, that is what bug-eyed texas ratsnakes look like.

The bug-eyed gene look was so common that regular looking ones commanded 2-3 times the regular price ~12 years ago. The bug-eyed was CLAIMED to be due to inbreeding, but these animals were otherwise robust and healthy breeders and pets. ANYWAY, bug-eyed ones are actually less common than regular ones here in the states. I've only seen a few bug-eyed ones in the past couple of years! This was turned around because of outcrossing and selective breeding. Whew!

Bug-eyes seems to be just another genetic defect/mutation (like albino or striped in cornsnakes). It never seemed to hinder the snakes. It is just that SOME mutations are seen as good for pets while others or not. It doesn't seem to hurt the snakes, so the only thing different between them and the Leucistic gene itself is the PERCEPTION of the mutation by keepers.

With that said, I don't think the bug-eyed look will EVER become very valuable.....lol. ...unless you MADE a market for it. Possible, but I ain't hitching a ride on that train.... :)

Oh, and I'm not sure anyone ever cared to determine the actual mode of expression - they just got rid of the ones that had it and bred the normal ones to wild-caughts until the look mostly disappeared. :)

KJ
 
Point taken, I assume then that the phrase of "Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder" is relevant here. I am sorry to hijack this thread, but here are some Pics' of my Leucistic Texas Rat Snakes.

DSC00275.jpg


DSC00276.jpg


DSC00277.jpg


DSC00278.jpg


I know the Pics' are of poor quality, but the Bugeyedness is there.

Ciao
 
Can you post a close-up of the head? Those eyes look almost normal, but they may be a little buggy. It is hard to tell from those images. However, they are NOT the bug-look that was so "horrible" in them 10 years ago - That's for sure.
KJ
 
Kjun I have to add to what you said that there are levels to "bugeyeness". Some exhibit is severely and some don't.
It -is- a defect because it does hinder their ability adjust their eyes and focus properly- I can say that by looking at my own Leucistic Texas Ratsnake(whom I adore).
He has a very mild case of it... and he did breed, I did not know it was a genetic defect until after he mated. All of the offspring turned out alright, only one exhibited the anomaly.
On my snake it's kind of cute, but I have seen cases in which it almost looks painful.

I think that the theory of in-breeding makes sense, after all it's a very sought after gene. The only way to preserve it is by in-breeding.
At least here in Israel, the stock is extremely thin in numbers.

I have decided not to further breed him. I am not sure he is capable of it anymore actually. He went through a very severe case of rectal prolapse which had to be treated with surgery.

He has made full recovery, but the vent had to be stitched to the bowels and I am not sure how that effects his ability to extract the hemipenis.
At any rate... he is full of personality and remains as a very special snake to me.
 
Good Day

I have a pair of Leucistic Texas Rats, I would not class the Bug Eyes as an abnormality because when they mate, all the babies are bug eyed. Those big blue bugged out eyes are gorgeous. If it was some sort of abnormality then surely only some of the offspring would be bugeyed. I have yet to see a non bug eyed Leucistic Texas Rat and am of the opinion that by breeding to get them you just have to live with the bug eyedness.

Just my 2 bits worth.

Ciao

The term 'abnormality' does not refer to JUST a mutation that causes harm, and just because all babies in a clutch are born showing it, doesn't mean it's not an abnormality. Do you mean it's only an abnormality if it's something which you didn't expect to happen?
If you had two snakes homozygous for a negative recessive trait, and you mated them all babies would be born showing it. If it were a dominant trait then all babies would be born like it even if one of the parents looked normal. And if it was something that had been selectively bred deliberately or not, then the babies would all look like it too.....just like if you breed a bulldog to a bulldog you get a bulldog, not a mutt. But the characteristic/trait could still be an abnormality. All morphs are mutations, so are technically abnormalities anyway.

Of course only one or two in a clutch may be born showing a harmful trait eg stargazing, but that's just like when you only get two snows in a clutch from two normal parents het for amel and anery. It was recessive.
 
I wouldn't be too quick to judge if it's recessive or not... as in, I am not quite sure you can bind the trait to a single gene- it may be several genes, each of which can be dom, co dom or recessive.
It's a bit too early to tell and I don't think anyone is going to try to prove it out since it is not really a desired trait
 
I wouldn't be too quick to judge if it's recessive or not... as in, I am not quite sure you can bind the trait to a single gene- it may be several genes, each of which can be dom, co dom or recessive.
It's a bit too early to tell and I don't think anyone is going to try to prove it out since it is not really a desired trait

I agree. I don't think assuming this phenotype is caused by a single allele is a smart idea.
KJ
 
The reason I made this thead was because I was wondering as I said, about things which affect the actual construction of a snake. There seems to be a lot of criticism of the scaleless corns with people saying it it cruel, that it will encourage people to start engineering them in all kinds of terrible ways, and will make them ill. But I am not convinced those things are anything other than emotional assumptions....when most of these people would be quite happy to own a bulldog, or a goggly-eyed pet fish that swims upside down which is much more abnormal!

My main arguement against the idea of people all of sudden being given the green light to start breeding weird deformities is what else can you really DO to a snake? They have no fur, no legs/arms, no ears, no moveable eyelids... Really there is only the options of making it longer, shorter, fatter, thinner....There was the short tail thing in corn snakes- which people rejected and bred out, even though i don't think it harmed the snake. It's just a case of not wanting a stubby snake. You can get bug eyedness. And finally the most extreme looking- scalelessness. From what has been said by the people owning these there are not health problems. They eat, shed, breed just fine....therefore what is wrong with breeding such a captive animal? People's opposition is based on the extremity of the new look, and the idea that it MUST be wrong (just because it hasn't been done before....but it's ok with other animals we might own/like) but are there problems associated with the usual colour/pattern morphs which actually cause more stress to the animal than scalelessness, but attract less attention? I read in Charles Pritzel's book that the development of pigment is associated with the development of the nervous system,and therefore some colour/pattern mutations can cause various problems,eg with white/albino animals. I also have read that some super forms of certain morphs eg in royals are fatal so colours and patterns are not as innocent as they look.

See this picture:
http://www.weirdasianews.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/tree-man.jpg

Shocking....but do you know what it was? The simple wart virus....he's now been treated. It just goes to show that you've got to be careful not to overeact before you have thought about something properly.

Would anyone ever show an interest in shortening/lengthening the nose of a snake? I doubt it....You couldn't breed it's skin to be looser without immediate healthproblems I don't think, and besides it would be grotesque. But a basset hound is good looking? We are definately conditioned aren't we....? It's ok to see someone milking a mutant breed of cow with a huge udder it can hardely sustain, but if a woman (your own species, in our own natural form) tried expressing milk in front of you you would probably die of embarrassment or find it offensive.

Scale mutations could occur like perhaps missing scales, rough scales, abnormally large/small scales, flatter/more raised scales....but these may interfere in shedding and to be honest many professional snake breeders are vey respnsible about not breeding anything harmful to a snake's health, it is not the same situation as some of the unscrupulous people who breed dogs for showing for example. Even if sometimes people do put looks/money over total saintliness, I don't think to this date, breeders have too done bad at all.

Oh and last but not least, I suppose venomous keepers coud breed certain species to not have no venom glands..but how would you know they don't have them? Or if a snake eg the ETB has big fangs you could breed them smaller....possibly. But dunno it will happen.
Just doesn't seem likely...so I've made my case.
 
And finally the most extreme looking- scalelessness. From what has been said by the people owning these there are not health problems. They eat, shed, breed just fine...

Their are articles that say their are health problems related with scaleless reptiles. As I said in another thread, how do we know the animals aren't suffering when what protects them from abrasions and what not is missing? It is just my opinion unethical. I would also be pretty POed if those genes were unknowingly sold to me and I would have to cull animals.

I am fascinated with the thought that a snake that has no scales can shed? Wouldn't think that was possible! I'm going to go look it up! :)
 
The reason I made this thead was because I was wondering as I said, about things which affect the actual construction of a snake. There seems to be a lot of criticism of the scaleless corns with people saying it it cruel, that it will encourage people to start engineering them in all kinds of terrible ways, and will make them ill. But I am not convinced those things are anything other than emotional assumptions....when most of these people would be quite happy to own a bulldog, or a goggly-eyed pet fish that swims upside down which is much more abnormal!

My main arguement against the idea of people all of sudden being given the green light to start breeding weird deformities is what else can you really DO to a snake? They have no fur, no legs/arms, no ears, no moveable eyelids... Really there is only the options of making it longer, shorter, fatter, thinner....There was the short tail thing in corn snakes- which people rejected and bred out, even though i don't think it harmed the snake. It's just a case of not wanting a stubby snake. You can get bug eyedness. And finally the most extreme looking- scalelessness. From what has been said by the people owning these there are not health problems. They eat, shed, breed just fine....therefore what is wrong with breeding such a captive animal? People's opposition is based on the extremity of the new look, and the idea that it MUST be wrong (just because it hasn't been done before....but it's ok with other animals we might own/like) but are there problems associated with the usual colour/pattern morphs which actually cause more stress to the animal than scalelessness, but attract less attention? I read in Charles Pritzel's book that the development of pigment is associated with the development of the nervous system,and therefore some colour/pattern mutations can cause various problems,eg with white/albino animals. I also have read that some super forms of certain morphs eg in royals are fatal so colours and patterns are not as innocent as they look.

See this picture:
http://www.weirdasianews.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/tree-man.jpg

Shocking....but do you know what it was? The simple wart virus....he's now been treated. It just goes to show that you've got to be careful not to overeact before you have thought about something properly.

Would anyone ever show an interest in shortening/lengthening the nose of a snake? I doubt it....You couldn't breed it's skin to be looser without immediate healthproblems I don't think, and besides it would be grotesque. But a basset hound is good looking? We are definately conditioned aren't we....? It's ok to see someone milking a mutant breed of cow with a huge udder it can hardely sustain, but if a woman (your own species, in our own natural form) tried expressing milk in front of you you would probably die of embarrassment or find it offensive.

Scale mutations could occur like perhaps missing scales, rough scales, abnormally large/small scales, flatter/more raised scales....but these may interfere in shedding and to be honest many professional snake breeders are vey respnsible about not breeding anything harmful to a snake's health, it is not the same situation as some of the unscrupulous people who breed dogs for showing for example. Even if sometimes people do put looks/money over total saintliness, I don't think to this date, breeders have too done bad at all.

Oh and last but not least, I suppose venomous keepers coud breed certain species to not have no venom glands..but how would you know they don't have them? Or if a snake eg the ETB has big fangs you could breed them smaller....possibly. But dunno it will happen.
Just doesn't seem likely...so I've made my case.

Your whole thread revolves around your limited perspective. No I am not ditching you or anything- I am only saying that -now- it seems odd to you that people would want to engineer their snake, and you can't wrap your mind around a way to actually do that. That's only because we're at the very beginning.
Did the first people who line bred dogs ever imagined that this would be the outcome?

Besides, I definitely -can- see people wanting to "shrink" certain snakes- already you got the super dwarf reticulated pythons, dwarf pythons, giant leopard geckos and whatever.
Now not all traits were purposely introduced, people wanted to emphasize one trait so they line-bred the animal over and over again into the same gene pool. At some point, a defect that was hidden in said gene pool was expressed because of the repetitive breeding of blood related animals.

The Leucistic example is great, cause no one wanted to create a bug eyed snake, it was simply a "side effect" that came along with the creation of more and more leucistic individuals.

Some traits may actually effect the animal's longevity and it will take a real long time before we realize it and make the connection - the phenomena over the period of say... 15 years, could easily spread and take deep roots in the hobby.

People should be aware that genetic "play" has consequences, some of which are severe.
No one knows where the line is. Most of us, I believe, simply encourage and try to facilitate such awareness within the breeder's community.

Will it help?
who knows
 
I do not have a limited persepctive at all. I am well aware of the kind of things people breed into animals and I think I hinted at that quite clearly, when mentioning boggly eyed fish, cows, breeds of dog such as the bulldog and basset hound etc. I have studied animals for several years now and reached degree level- I do know about breeding and the extremes which can be reached. That's why I know what bug-eyedness is, and scalelessness in the first place.

I did not say that I couldn't imagine anyone wanting to shrink a snake, I put that as one of the possible things people actually might want to do.... I know of dwarf retics but was under the impression that these were a natural occurence, coming from islands where their size naturally diminished due to natural selection.

What I WAS saying was that the things that are possible to do to a snake are very limited, compared to a dog for example. As i said, they do not have ears which you can make longer/shorter, they don't have fur, they don't have legs that can be dwarfed like a dachshund, they don't have eyelids wich can droop...I then listed everything I could think of which people COULD do. Most of these are reliant on mutations occurring or a lot of selective breeding which I do not personally think there will ever be much interest in. In years to come people may well breed a few more things which affect the actual conformation of a snake but I do not think there are the possibilities available for it to take off that much.

Most potential physical changes would affect the health of the animal too much for it to be either possible/permissable, eg loose skin would seriously affect the snake's ability to move since a snake moves on it's belly, and since snakes shed as well I doubt it would work.

Many other changes in form would just not be deemed desireable, in my honest opinion. Scalelessness and bug-eyes are attractive and exotic, and I think are probably the most extreme alterations that are possible in a snake. Things like a shortened nose or tail I just don't think anyone will find interesting enough. A reptile's body is much more simple- if you affected the shape of the mouth it wouldn't be able to eat, or close it...very quickly leading to health problems.

If you can think of something other the limited list of things I have mentioned, that people could actually breed into snakes, while ending up with a snake that is able to survive in captivity....then please add it.
 
Again I have to disagree. The fact that you or I can't think of anything has very little to do with reality and everything to do with what we're used to. I too have studied animals and have undergone training as a vet tech- These have nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

I perhaps did not expressed myself accurately- my apologies, English is not my native tongue and though I think I have a good grip on it, sometimes things slip by.

What you and I know today is limited to the things we're used to.

We can't fathom what sort of new mutations may occur along the way. Is it impossible for snakes to end up with all sorts of odd shapes for their scales? Have bigger eyes?
God knows, but the choices are as limitless as any other animal. The fact that we can't think of anything is simply because we haven't encountered good examples as of yet.

The man who started breeding dogs never fathomed that one day there will be hairless breeds that can fit into a wallet.
 
Also- to every quirk you'll find someone who wants it. You can't judge the future demand to a trait which you simply don't like.
What you hate, others might love.
 
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