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Calling the TESSERA EXPERTS!
- Thread starter SquamishSerpents
- Start date
SODERBERGD
Active member
Fabulous data, Joe . . . .
Awesome data, Joe. Thanks for sharing.
I'm very interested about your theory that there are two different Striped Mutations in Tessera corns. If that is what I deduce from this post, even without actual DNA evidence, if you bred a Striped Tessera Corn to a Striped California King, Mendelian proportions should indicate two different alleles of striped-type gene mutations. Since the Striped gene mutation in Kings is not inherited like the Striped gene mutation in corns, it would be easy to find that "some" Tesseras owe their stripe to a Striped gene mutation that was heretofore only in a King Snake species. Mendelian results from such a breeding trial would be tantamount to actual DNA comparison and evidence of hybridization. I never thought of such a trial until this post. Awesome. One may have to breed many different Tessera Corns to Striped Kings for double-blind results - since identification of Striped Tessera genotypes is not a slam-dunk.
BTW, I've always agreed with the reality you cite (Motley dominates Stripe) but in such a visual hobby, when people see STRIPE they wanna call it a Striped Mutant. A possible parallel would be someone asked to call out the color of a card. If the card is green, but the word red is on it, they may initially call out RED as the color of the card? We've been blessed with the marker of width between stripes and/or thickness of stripes in discerning between Striped and Motley mutants.
To my knowledge, the Super Tessera Corn produced by Graham and now owned by Vin Russo is still the only one in existance? Strange that only one super-form has been demonstrated?
Off topic, but BTW again, I presume that wide-(or reverse-) striped California kings are polygenetic variants of the Striped Cal. King Mutation?
Awesome data, Joe. Thanks for sharing.
I'm very interested about your theory that there are two different Striped Mutations in Tessera corns. If that is what I deduce from this post, even without actual DNA evidence, if you bred a Striped Tessera Corn to a Striped California King, Mendelian proportions should indicate two different alleles of striped-type gene mutations. Since the Striped gene mutation in Kings is not inherited like the Striped gene mutation in corns, it would be easy to find that "some" Tesseras owe their stripe to a Striped gene mutation that was heretofore only in a King Snake species. Mendelian results from such a breeding trial would be tantamount to actual DNA comparison and evidence of hybridization. I never thought of such a trial until this post. Awesome. One may have to breed many different Tessera Corns to Striped Kings for double-blind results - since identification of Striped Tessera genotypes is not a slam-dunk.
BTW, I've always agreed with the reality you cite (Motley dominates Stripe) but in such a visual hobby, when people see STRIPE they wanna call it a Striped Mutant. A possible parallel would be someone asked to call out the color of a card. If the card is green, but the word red is on it, they may initially call out RED as the color of the card? We've been blessed with the marker of width between stripes and/or thickness of stripes in discerning between Striped and Motley mutants.
To my knowledge, the Super Tessera Corn produced by Graham and now owned by Vin Russo is still the only one in existance? Strange that only one super-form has been demonstrated?
Off topic, but BTW again, I presume that wide-(or reverse-) striped California kings are polygenetic variants of the Striped Cal. King Mutation?
SquamishSerpents
Katia
Sorry guys I kind of left this here and haven't been around much, I shall read all your responses tomorrow night.
Thanks for the input so far!
Thanks for the input so far!
SODERBERGD
Active member
Digression . . .
Katia, much of it digresses from the core intent of your thread, but there's very good information for all of us in this thread. Much more Tessera breeding will be necessary before we have a better understanding of its genetic mechanics.
Thanks for starting this thread.
Don
Katia, much of it digresses from the core intent of your thread, but there's very good information for all of us in this thread. Much more Tessera breeding will be necessary before we have a better understanding of its genetic mechanics.
Thanks for starting this thread.
Don
SODERBERGD
Active member
Leopard Rat Snake ([I]Elaphe situla[/I])
Most of you are aware that FAR from the United States are rat snakes found around the Greek Islands that have a mutation like Tessera. This mutant that is fairly common in the wild range of Leopard Rat Snakes Elaphe situla is remarkably like our corn snake Tessera Mutation. If you GOOGLE IMAGE search Striped Leopard Rat Snake, you'll see many examples. I'm told that striped variants are found that exhibit contiguous stripes, but those are not the result of an additional striped gene mutation - like our Tessera corn snake mutants.
This picture of a wild-caught mutant was provided today by Daniel Bohle of Germany.
Most of you are aware that FAR from the United States are rat snakes found around the Greek Islands that have a mutation like Tessera. This mutant that is fairly common in the wild range of Leopard Rat Snakes Elaphe situla is remarkably like our corn snake Tessera Mutation. If you GOOGLE IMAGE search Striped Leopard Rat Snake, you'll see many examples. I'm told that striped variants are found that exhibit contiguous stripes, but those are not the result of an additional striped gene mutation - like our Tessera corn snake mutants.
This picture of a wild-caught mutant was provided today by Daniel Bohle of Germany.
Attachments
Mitchell Mulks
New member
Don, I read Joe's postings regarding the striping in tesseras as follows:
1. The dominant CA king stripe gene creates the classic "tessera" pattern.
2. Both the motley and corn snake "striped" genes create a non-tessalated tessera (i.e., lateral flanks devoid of tessalation).
A. What we have been calling tessera stripes are in fact motley/stripe genetically.
B. True tessera stripes highly resemble vanishing stripes with virtually no head patterning.
*You can't have a tessera without the CA king stripe gene, but a tessera can exist without the corn motley/stripe gene
I think that's what Joe was indicating.
1. The dominant CA king stripe gene creates the classic "tessera" pattern.
2. Both the motley and corn snake "striped" genes create a non-tessalated tessera (i.e., lateral flanks devoid of tessalation).
A. What we have been calling tessera stripes are in fact motley/stripe genetically.
B. True tessera stripes highly resemble vanishing stripes with virtually no head patterning.
*You can't have a tessera without the CA king stripe gene, but a tessera can exist without the corn motley/stripe gene
I think that's what Joe was indicating.
SODERBERGD
Active member
Thanks, Nanci . . .
Exactly my point. To say that because this phenotype (ergo, mutation) exists in California Kings and therefore makes California Kings the hybrid-originating species is sheer speculation (in the absence of DNA evidence). A few people thought perhaps I made the first Tesseras by using a Leopard Rat Snake mutant. They exist in the U.S, but I've never owned one and between KJ, Graham, and me, we can prove we got the first ones from a guy who sold a reverse trio to Graham. I'm just pointing out to perhaps a new batch of forum participants that when they hear/read that some people think the Tessera mutation was borrowed from California Kings (that they are therefore Jungle Corns), there is no evidence to that effect at this time. Anything's possible, but we should all insist on facts, instead of unsubstantiated guesses.
I also wanted to show how cool those E.situla are. Stunning mutants, AND so much like corns.
Don
Exactly my point. To say that because this phenotype (ergo, mutation) exists in California Kings and therefore makes California Kings the hybrid-originating species is sheer speculation (in the absence of DNA evidence). A few people thought perhaps I made the first Tesseras by using a Leopard Rat Snake mutant. They exist in the U.S, but I've never owned one and between KJ, Graham, and me, we can prove we got the first ones from a guy who sold a reverse trio to Graham. I'm just pointing out to perhaps a new batch of forum participants that when they hear/read that some people think the Tessera mutation was borrowed from California Kings (that they are therefore Jungle Corns), there is no evidence to that effect at this time. Anything's possible, but we should all insist on facts, instead of unsubstantiated guesses.
I also wanted to show how cool those E.situla are. Stunning mutants, AND so much like corns.
Don
SODERBERGD
Active member
It's a plausible theory
Naturally, the next step is proving his theory, and the only way to do that is to breed those Striped Cal Kings to suspected Striped Tesseras. Of course, there must also be a control group of several different normal corns and mutants.
Let's get some volunteers to make it happen (with full documentation - including images). Until such trials are evaluated (lots of them), there is no proof that Tesseras are hybrids? Do they SMACK of hybrid genetic mechanics? They sure do, but as they say in court, they are innocent until proven guilty. lol
Thanks, Mitch.
Naturally, the next step is proving his theory, and the only way to do that is to breed those Striped Cal Kings to suspected Striped Tesseras. Of course, there must also be a control group of several different normal corns and mutants.
Let's get some volunteers to make it happen (with full documentation - including images). Until such trials are evaluated (lots of them), there is no proof that Tesseras are hybrids? Do they SMACK of hybrid genetic mechanics? They sure do, but as they say in court, they are innocent until proven guilty. lol
Thanks, Mitch.
Mitchell Mulks
New member
Don, I'm way ahead of you on this one! Haha. I already have two wild-caught male corns (from very isolated areas) that I'll be pairing to two striped desert CA kings.
I will hold back tessera-like corns that inherent their pattern in a dominant fashion. Those F1's will be crossed back to pure wild-caught corns. The most tessera-like progeny will again be held back...and so on.
I estimate it will take no more than four generations to produce a snake identical to what we consider a tessera to be. Furthermore, I expect the non-tessera hatchlings to look like pure corns at that point.
Will this prove the tessera in our collections today are CA king x corn hybrids? Not at all! But what it will do is make us seriously consider that that could be the origin of our beloved tesseras. Occam's Razor would support that theory; seeing as how hobbyists have been tooling with jungle corns for decades now.
Every hatchling ever produced in this breeding experiment will be shared visually with the public, while all progeny will eventually be destroyed; holdback or not.
Don, because of shared ancestry, I don't think breeding a tessera to a CA king would make anything any more clear. If from that pairing we produced tessera-like progeny, yes, it could be because they are really hybrids...or it could just be the result of having the same gene because of shared ancestry.
I feel if I were able to identically replicate the hybrid event that theoretically created tesseras, that that would best help answer if they stem from hybrid origin or not.
Either way, it'll be fun and cool. Isn't this kind of madness why we all play the amateur geneticist mad scientist anyways?
I will hold back tessera-like corns that inherent their pattern in a dominant fashion. Those F1's will be crossed back to pure wild-caught corns. The most tessera-like progeny will again be held back...and so on.
I estimate it will take no more than four generations to produce a snake identical to what we consider a tessera to be. Furthermore, I expect the non-tessera hatchlings to look like pure corns at that point.
Will this prove the tessera in our collections today are CA king x corn hybrids? Not at all! But what it will do is make us seriously consider that that could be the origin of our beloved tesseras. Occam's Razor would support that theory; seeing as how hobbyists have been tooling with jungle corns for decades now.
Every hatchling ever produced in this breeding experiment will be shared visually with the public, while all progeny will eventually be destroyed; holdback or not.
Don, because of shared ancestry, I don't think breeding a tessera to a CA king would make anything any more clear. If from that pairing we produced tessera-like progeny, yes, it could be because they are really hybrids...or it could just be the result of having the same gene because of shared ancestry.
I feel if I were able to identically replicate the hybrid event that theoretically created tesseras, that that would best help answer if they stem from hybrid origin or not.
Either way, it'll be fun and cool. Isn't this kind of madness why we all play the amateur geneticist mad scientist anyways?
Mitchell Mulks
New member
Chip, I don't feel two generations were enough...but while you can absolutely still see king influence you also very much see the beginning of a tessera-like morph. Things take time.
While I have no horse in this race I find tesseras gorgeous and their mysterious origins exciting. I choose to accept in those photos you've provided a link to that there are Kingsnake markers in all the hatchlings...but I'd be willingly obtuse if I didn't equally admit that they were on the track to becoming "tesseras".
Mitchell Mulks
New member
But, to the original poster...what a fantastic dilemma you face, as both hatchlings are simply gorgeous!
SODERBERGD
Active member
I agree, Mitch . . . .
. . . that your project inventory should satisfy most people (one way or the other). BTW, I know there are localities of Cal Kings that look like non-Striped Tesseras, but you're telling me that even though we've never caught a Tessera-looking Cal King where the Striped Desert cal Kings are, you'll see Tesseras? I'm probably misunderstanding what you said. I'm good at that lately. lol.
Sounds like the collateral non-Tesseras will have perhaps the loudest voice in this project. Don't you think?
. . . that your project inventory should satisfy most people (one way or the other). BTW, I know there are localities of Cal Kings that look like non-Striped Tesseras, but you're telling me that even though we've never caught a Tessera-looking Cal King where the Striped Desert cal Kings are, you'll see Tesseras? I'm probably misunderstanding what you said. I'm good at that lately. lol.
Sounds like the collateral non-Tesseras will have perhaps the loudest voice in this project. Don't you think?
BSLMichael
Below Sea Level Reptiles
OP... Looks like your call was answered. My head is spinning. I'm interested! I just cant follow. I think I'm going to have to reread a few more times before I catch up.
*Edit* I think I get the jist of it now! Cool stuff. I Find it interesting but when it comes to breeding, I could care less WHERE the gene actually comes from, I am just glad it is here.
*Edit* I think I get the jist of it now! Cool stuff. I Find it interesting but when it comes to breeding, I could care less WHERE the gene actually comes from, I am just glad it is here.
ecreipeoj
Striped Topaz SK SG Free
Tessera Improvement Theory
Some of you may not have seen this, so I thought I would post a link so it is completely out in the open. It was first posted on Facebook. All peer review is welcome, and opposing opinions will be respected.
Tessera Improvement Theory
http://www..com/forum/showthread.php?t=10946
Some of you may not have seen this, so I thought I would post a link so it is completely out in the open. It was first posted on Facebook. All peer review is welcome, and opposing opinions will be respected.
Tessera Improvement Theory
http://www..com/forum/showthread.php?t=10946
Walter Smith
CRAZY BOUT' CORNS !!
Hey Joe,
Just a FYI, if this is a link from your personal forum over on the "other" corn snake site, Rich has his site set up to where any links to that site trying to be posted are blocked.
I'm sure you didn't know. I found out a while back as well trying to do so and simply not knowing about the block.
Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
ecreipeoj
Striped Topaz SK SG Free
Tessera het Striped Lava
I bought a Tessera het Striped Lava from Tom, because I like the pheno of his Tessera. It is either het for Striped OR Motley. Now that I know, all I have to do is breed it to a Motley instead of a Striped and more Motley Tessera will be produced than if I bred it to a Striped.
I will also breed him to a Striped Lava just to see if he is het for Striped or Motley, but the breedings to a Lava Motley or Ice Motley will be most interesting.
I bought a Tessera het Striped Lava from Tom, because I like the pheno of his Tessera. It is either het for Striped OR Motley. Now that I know, all I have to do is breed it to a Motley instead of a Striped and more Motley Tessera will be produced than if I bred it to a Striped.
I will also breed him to a Striped Lava just to see if he is het for Striped or Motley, but the breedings to a Lava Motley or Ice Motley will be most interesting.