Considering Raising Feeders

[antiochian]

... in order to save some money. I only need to produce enough to feed one corn and 2 sand boas, all currently babies. And I still have a few months worth of f/t in the freezer to use up.

So I'm thinking 1 pair of breeding mice will work. Or 2 females-1 male better? Can I keep them in a plastic critter keeper with the plastic lids or will they eat their way through? I've also seen small cages with bars in the pet store advertised as usable with all small rodents and mice--but I once watched a wild mouse squeeze through the bars and escape such a cage, never to be seen again. If neither of those work I would want use a 5 gallon aquarium, which the Petco guy said was fine. (I realize pet store people don't usually know jack about reptiles, but I'm hoping they'd be somewhat smarter on the furry animals??)

I also thought of gerbils. But would my corns/sb's eat baby gerbils? And I'm guessing a pair of gerbils would need a 10 gallon tank, which I'm not sure I could comfortably fit in my living space, unless I keep it in my closet.

And there's the issue of how to prekill the babies. The thought of having to do this makes me uneasy. Drown in water? Put in a bag and slam against a hard surface? Stick them in the freezer to die of hypothermia? I want as little suffering as possible.

And how badly does it upset the mother when the babies are taken away?

I'm just full of questions. Appreciate any answers you may have.

 

[jessicashallperish]

gerbils are a pain. avoid those.
as for quickest killing method... gassing them.

 

[antiochian]

Where would I purchase a rodent gassing apparatus? Thanks.

 

[Tavia]

I know lots of people build their own CO2 chambers, but I don't remember exactly how those are built. I'm also considering maybe eventually trying to breed a few, as we are planning on breeding a bit in the next few years and the local pet stores are unreliable with their live pinks. I will be interested in hearing what others with experience have to say as well.

 

[pheonix]

For babies I just put them straight in the freezer. I wouldn't do it with anything that has fur though. I feed prekilled for the most part. I use cervical dislocation. It's quick and painless. But it requires more work than gassing. You can't really buy a co2 chamber. Not that I know of.

Imho, I don't think a 5 gallon tank is big enough for 3 mice. That'll smell bad fast and if you have 2 litters of babies it'll be worse. Tanks also hold in the smell so it can't air out. I have a rack, but if you can't do better than a 5 gallon than at least a 10 gallon. The critter keepers are too small.

My mommas at the most just grab my finger with their little paws then take a nibble. Like to see if I'm food i guess. It doesn't hurt and they then let go after 2 seconds. No big deal. You'll want to clean the cage out prettty often. Especially if it's in your home. I'd at least clean it once a week. Make sure the mice have food and water at all times. First time mothers will probably eat their first or even second litters, don't give up on them till the third. If i were you I'd search this forum for the answers you need! I hope this helps!

 

[Weda737]

I raise mice, two girls and a boy should do just fine, freeze the excess. I just raise them in my room in a ten gallon tank, I've tried many different foods for them and kaytee forti diet hamster and gerbil food seems to work best. I keep them on aspen, same as snakes, and give them a handful of timothy hay to nibble and nest in. They get a little dog food now and then as a protein boost. I freeze the pinkies and use cervical dislocation on the older ones. I don't really like the idea of Co2 chambers, they suffocate and panic, it takes too long in my opinion.

 

[pheonix]

I feed 18% pork grower. You can get pig feed at feed stores. It'll be cheapper than most pet-store bought feed. I pay $12 for 50 pounds. One bag would last your 3 mice a very long time. I have my mice on kiln-dried pine. It helps with the smell. You can get it at most feed stores as well. It costs me $6 for 4 cubic feet. (it fills a 39 gallon trash can) I think aspen already isn't the best smell. Lol

 

[lilmike227]

An easy Co2 chamber can be a an empty bucket that you would buy cheese puffs in or something like that. Cut a hole in the lid and put the tube through the hole(aslo put smaller holes in the lid so the air can escape) then bam mouse genocide I dont like Co2 because you can see the mice jumping in the air trying to breath its really sad to watch

 

[Weda737]

Aspen does have an odor, and I've considered pig feed but I raise on such a small scale that I don't really want to buy a big bag of it. Limited space as well.

 

[antiochian]

An easy Co2 chamber can be a an empty bucket that you would buy cheese puffs in or something like that. Cut a hole in the lid and put the tube through the hole(aslo put smaller holes in the lid so the air can escape) then bam mouse genocide I dont like Co2 because you can see the mice jumping in the air trying to breath its really sad to watch

Eek! That's awful. I'm a sensitive soul. On the other hand it can't be pleasant for the live mouse being constricted by the snake. One way or another the mouse has to die. Just as millions of animals die each day to become food for lions, sharks, bears, and people.

But getting off the morbid, I don't know that I want my little apartment overrun by mouse stink. I'm going to have to think about this a while. If I did choose to follow through, maybe 1 male and 1 female would be enough. It's not like I've got a lot of snakes to feed. Just 3.

Do corns get picky about the color of the mouse like bp's? Would I want to stick to all white or all black or whatever?

 

[Weda737]

Not in my experience, but I suppose it could happen. Some of my mice are even brindle colored lol. I did have a bp once that went off albino rats altogether.

 

[pheonix]

I'd go with the white feedes you can buy at reptile stores. They tend to have bigger littters. And if you are just gonna go with 1 female then you'll need big litters. Lol I have't heard of corns being color-specific.

 

[jessicashallperish]

i agree that white mice tend to have large litters, i have 3 white females that are massive and produce large litter (15+)
but buying mice from a pet store is a no no, they are typically sickly and dont live long. I got mine from a breeder at a reptile expo, and they were all healthy and happy.

 

[buckmaster299]

With all of this being said, how long does it take to get a litter usually?

 

[Pugsley]

I'm still working on getting my colonies going. I've bought from Petco to get 2 colonies, one is going great, the other not so well. From the great one, I pulled out a male and 2 female albinos into their own colony. I've got a huge batch of fuzzies in there now. I'll be pulling out another colony from the original one soon.

I've also bought a bunch of very pretty males from Jen and some females from a vendor at the Portland Reptile show, I'm not having much luck with them yet as they just killed a litter. But I'll get there.

The hog grower, or at least a hog food with 18% protien that I can find here, is just under $20 for a 50# bag. I'm going to check another feed store today and see if they have it cheaper. This stuff is for show hogs.

 

[Productmur]

Gerbils, while your snakes will probably eat them, are harder to tame (the parents) and have smaller litters by far. Probably not what you're looking for. :/

I have petshop mice, and they're doing fine. I made sure to check them out carefully, though. If the store knows you're seriously interested in buying, they should let you handle them to choose which you like. Mice are jumpy, keep that in mind; a lot of petshop mice are young weanlings, and still not quite out of the popcorn stage, so be careful when handling them. It's amazing how high they can jump! Both of mine were very calm in hand, though; and as I wanted to handle the parents, I was looking for that calmness. Mice shouldn't readily bite; if any bite you, don't pick them. Nibbling is not biting; they may "taste" you, but usually just kind of nip and lose interest. They should have clean, smooth-looking fur. Even my long-haired does. Don't pick one that has a filthy-looking coat, as it may be a sign of illness if they cannot clean themselves properly. Bright eyes is a good sign, look for lively eyes and not ones that seem tired and lethargic, or have any residue around them. Curiosity is a nice quality; they should be interested in their surroundings and what's going on, twitching their little noses to smell everything and looking around. :]

I have one breeding pair, and that is enough for me. However, if you decide you want two females suddenly, do not simply introduce another female. Introducing a female to an already-established breeding pair can cause issues ("OMG! You're cheating on me!" -insert "cat" fight here- xD). If you want to add another female, the best way is to raise up one of the females from a litter, and just keep her in there. She should be helping mom raise a second litter before she gets one of her own, which makes for nice practice. The inbreeding shouldn't be a problem for mice in just one generation (not that it really matters much if the offspring are food), and I know with gerbils, it took three generations of inbreeding to cause notable problems.

For mine, I have a single breeding pair kept in a Crittertrail pet home similar to this one. The cage will allow better ventilation than an aquarium will, resulting in less odor and probably less respiratory infections (mine haven't gotten one in the time I've had them, although I cannot vouch for this as I have not kept any in an aquarium; I have taken the babies out in an aquarium for socialization time, and noted that the aquarium smells real quickly). The mom likes to nest in the top there, instead of the nice little nest box I got her , but at the same time, I think maybe that keeps so that they cannot escape from the bars, because by the time they have opened their eyes and go down the tube, they can't fit. I've never had anyone fall down the tube and get hurt, but I do worry about it. Mostly, though, momma's built the nest so that it blocks any babies from tumbling down.

I use Carefresh and Kaytee bedding, and although they are a little more expensive than other brands and types, I have noticed it keeps the odor down without adding another odor as pine does. The "natural" Carefresh is a bit harder than the Kaytee "clean and cozy", but I mix the two: "natural" for the main bedding, with a little bit of Kaytee fluff for nesting material. (if you buy the natural, open the bag and air it out the night beforehand; it smells like...like...pumpkin guts. Kaytee has no smell, but also needs to be changed more often and is more expensive.) Mommy mouse loves it, and it keeps my place from smelling like mouse even with litters of 10+. I change it approximately every week, and usually give the whole place a good scrubdown after I remove the litter of pinks.

I feed a mix diet. Rodent blocks being the main part, but I forget what brand I bought. Anyway, the bag has lasted me a long time, and I still have a half-bag left, but I have it in a ziploc. Then I mix in about a handful of a high-protein seed and stuff mix for rodents; the current one being Vita-Smart (I think it had the most protein in the ones I compared...17% min). High-protein is necessary for mommy mouse. I then add treat toppers; papaya, yogurt drops, candy-covered sunflower seeds...but not a bunch. Just a sprinkling. :] But the fat-content is good for her, too. There are numerous fresh foods you can feed mice, too; I don't often get them, though, so I don't often give them. I've given a little bit of baby food before. Veggie or fruit ones are best, in the stage-1 type of baby food, not toddler kind. Just dip your finger in and let them lick it off. It's cute. :3 And (duh) fresh water always; use filtered or distilled to prevent urinary tract infections and other various health funk.

Her first litter will be the smallest. My first was 6 or something like that, and my last was 12. (She's actually giving birth right now, but I can't count those ones yet, but she was REALLY big! xD ) Some people with colonies "cycle" the mice, so that you'll continuously have someone in the prime, many-baby-litter stage, while others are young or old and have smaller litters. Buuuut, it doesn't sound like you need that yet. :]

The way it sounds, you're needing pinks, maybe fuzzies. You can get a litter approximately once a month, especially if you remove the babies at a younger age. The mom and dad will breed again immediately after birth, but the mom can suspend pregnancy until her previous litter is weaned. I've noticed a difference of about a week and a half in this last litter where I kept the babies until weanling stage instead of removing them as pinks/peach fuzzies.

I keep daddy mouse in there all the time, too. There are a few sites that recommend you remove him; I think this just stresses mom out more. (How would any of us feel if we got suddenly left to raise a litter? xP ) In my experience, the dad does not eat the babies, and actually will sit on them and keep them warm while mom goes and takes an eating break. :]

Mom's never eaten anyone that I know of, either. I usually don't catch her in labor, and that is probably the most common time for her to eat the litter. They're supposed to instinctively eat the stillborn or sickly or defective ones. They eat the placentas from each one, and even will eat bedding that has blood on it as an instinct to keep the scent of blood away from the nest. First time mothers may overclean a baby, and wind up eating it. I had to pull out a dead one from my last litter. Either mommy didn't want to eat her baby, or she just hadn't gotten to it yet. -shrugs-

I handle my parent mice. They are my pets, like my snakes, and come out to play. Mice are definitely more comfortable being handled than gerbils, in my experience, as now I have bred both. And this means mom doesn't freak out so much when I peek in or come to steal the babies. She has done the nibbling thing, but it doesn't hurt at all (and I'm a big pansy! xD ); more just "watch it, these are mine!", and then will twaddle off. I like to give her a peanut or something from the food bag when I intrude, because she'll usually run off with her prize and go eat it so I can pick out the babies. She does seem a little sad when she comes back to an empty nest; she will search for them, but will give up and settle down after a bit.

Anywho, I agree with pheonix, I kill the pinkies by sticking them right into the freezer. They die in like...no time. No ability to hold in body heat. It is sad when you pull them out, though, and can see that they've huddled together to try to keep warm. :[ As for older, although I haven't had to kill any older yet, I would use the cervical dislocation method as well. Instant death.

Aaaaand, yeah, I talk too much. xD But hope this helps! It actually has been much cheaper than buying 6 pinks for $10. :]

 

[antiochian]

Productmur, thank you for that very detailed post. If I decide to raise my own snake dinners eventually this will be very useful. From what I know at this point the biggest con is odor. I don't want a stinky apartment. I also am a serious softy. I feel sick even when I accidentally hit a raccoon on the road, so I don't know how "traumatizing" it may be to have to kill off the babies. I've cleaned fish many times, so I guess this shouldn't be any different. It's just part of nature and my snakes have to eat!

 

[taxman123]

if you have only a few snakes then I wouldnt breed feeders it can be more hassle then worth. As far as gassing If I had to kill alot I would get some dry ice put in a bucket add a lil water run a tube to another airtight bucket with the mice in and let it take its course. They do gasp for air so I usually just prekill by breaking there necks. With pinkies I dont kill I feed them live but I also freeze some so my pips will eat f/t also. I havent had any snake turn down a certain color of mice and rats and I feed all colors. Good Luck.

 

[khaleah]

How would u break thier necks. I have watched my X take one by the tail n bash its head. But I don't think I could do that. Pinkys in a freezer yeah no prob. Just how to do it when they are bigger?

 

[antiochian]

Another possibility may be to place the rodent being fed off in a cage that contains a baited mouse/rat trap that will do the job. Not really efficient for putting down large numbers of rodents, though.