Controversial Topic (08/23/07): Escapes!

[Roy Munson]

In the dark ages, before Kathy Love started publishing her guides, Michael McEachern’s Keeping and Breeding Corn Snakes was the corn enthusiast’s bible. On page 15, his chapter on ‘Housing and Maintenance’ begins: “Prevent Escapes! The first requirement for any snake in captivity is an escape-proof cage. This is hard to emphasize enough. Quite possibly, more beginners lose their snakes through their escaping than through their deaths.”

McEachern was a smart guy, and he didn’t even discourage cohabitation if it was done correctly. I agree with him for the most part, though I don’t cohabitate at all because there’s no need for me to do so (even though I think I have the experience). I don’t think that inexperienced keepers should cohabitate. But I feel that Mr. McEachern had his priorities straight in terms of risk assessment. A snake in an improperly-secured enclosure is at more risk than one that is cohabitated.

So why is the trend on cs.com to jump on cohabbers, but shower escape-allowers with sympathy and support? I’ve seen members post about multiple escape from the SAME snake, and everyone laughs it off and wishes good luck. Why? “I’m re-naming him Houdini!!11! LOL!11!” Give me a break. Most snakes and ALL corns are little “Houdinis”. Your snake ain’t special; you’re just an inept keeper.

My old-man rosy boa escaped about 16 years ago (his lid was BROKEN; still my fault for not noticing), but none of the other hundreds of snakes I’ve kept since have escaped. So I’m not perfect. But I've always felt at odds with how escapes are responded to here. :shrugs:

 

[Tula_Montage]

You forgot about Mr kingsnake that got the better of you in the kitchen Dean

I agree 100% about the hypocrisy on the negative response on cohabitation, but the best wishes in the world when a snake escapes. I have had 3 escapees, 2 of which were the same snake, from the same tank. I used to cohabitate my first two corns in a glass tank with sliding doors, both got out and it was down to the gap in the sliding doors. I quickly learnt to tape up the gap but then found it too much of a hassle AND when my collection started to grow so I switched everything to plastic secure tubs of their own.

I haven't has a single escapee since, and I use a lidless rack. Oh and I have cohabited 2 females in my lidless rack for a few weeks, shoot me!

 

[tom e]

I agree. I have NEVER had an escape- Not cause I'm so cool, just because before I ever buy another snake I'm setting up a new enclosure, testing the heating etc. I get a funny thrill from it- the anticipation, but more importantly, it's enclosure is NOT an afterthought.

Now that said, I'm more supportive of those who had an escape because I know the damage has been done, where as with a cohab, hopefully it can still be prevented.

But I agree 100% with what you are saying. An escaped snake is always a consequence of irresponsibility, sorry to say, and while looking for the escapee, hopefully the owner is reexamining their housing.. Cornsnakes are as crafty as they've ever been and we have to assume that if there is a way, it will find it.

 

[diamondlil]

Yes I've been inept enough to let my snakes escape, on one occasion I managed the monumentally stupid feeding day escape of 4 snakes.
I didn't find it at all funny except as relief when I found them all.
I think the reason it's dealt with sympathetically is because it's a mistake of omission, rather than a deliberate choice. As in most people don't preface an escape thread with 'I knew my lid was dodgy but I kept my snake in that tank anyway', but there are quite a few 'I've read about co-habbing problems but I choose to do it anyway'
Perhaps the real issue is that neither type of thread needs to be jumped on :shrugs:

 

[Nanci]

I totally agree, Dean. While we all hope the escapee is apprehended before any harm comes to it, I always think, why weren't you more careful? How could you allow this to occur? Why didn't you provide a secure environment in the first place?

I've had one snake escape ever. That was Maizey. Maizey was on his first hunger strike. I was frantic to get him to eat, plus more than a little irritated at having bought a live rat pup to tempt him with, yet seen it crawl about the feeding bin, uneaten and starving/freezing to death. When I gave Maize a second chance the next morning, thoroughly pissed, I neglected to securely latch the lid of his feeding bin. When I went to check- no snake. Panic! I used a flashlight to locate him, in the disconnected dryer exhaust hose, leading to the underside of my house. Maizey is like, What??? After plotting a SWAT operation, Maizey was recovered without incident. Since then, no snake is left in a feeding bin without securing the lid and weighting it down with a ton of bricks.

Nanci

 

[jazzgeek]

But I've always felt at odds with how escapes are responded to here.

As have I.

But I guess cohabbing is a volitional act, whereas escapes aren't - and "sins of commission" are always thought of as worse than "sins of omission" in this world, whether it's animal husbandry, accounting, or high-wire circus acrobatics.

Michael Vick gets a lot more press than the doofus down your block who has the neglected, mangy mutt......and rightfully so.

That said, c'mon people......secure your vivs and tubs. If you don't, search the FAQs before you post the usual.

regards,
jazz

 

[diamondlil]

Dale, were we separated at birth? :grin01:

 

[Roy Munson]

You forgot about Mr kingsnake that got the better of you in the kitchen Dean

Well, I've had two snakes escape from me when placing them in feeding tubs. I knew where they were and successfully waited them out. These weren't "enclosure" escapes. I SAW them escape.

 

[jazzgeek]

Dale, were we separated at birth? :grin01:

Well, that'll kill all those fantasies I had.

Nice post, btw!!!!

regards,
jazz

 

[waldo]

I have to agree with Dean on this one, Most escapes are caused by careless owners. I can understand one escape, maybe even two if its a different snake/cage but not 2,3, or even 4 by the same snake.
I can buy the black metal clamp brackets for a screen lid for $2.50, no reason other people can't.
I lost a gopher snake yrs ago, he ascaped through a hole I had in the cage for a cord to pass through. I never did find him and like to think he made his way outside (he was local caught), all my fault. I also left the lid open recently on a adult female corns cage, found her in the closet. Incidently, I don't consider a lid left open as an escape, its a whole different level of stupidity.

As far as cohabitating goes, I see no reason for it except to save space/money and if thats the case then that person doesn't need a second snake and deserves to get jumped on.

 

[tom e]

Waldo! After reading your post I realized I lied!
When I was a kid my old gopher snake used to escape at least once a month. It happened so often we knew just where to look for him. In the kitchen window sill catching some rays.
So I've gone from 0 escapes to possibly 30. I was like 5 years old though. But still my fault..

 

[Thoth]

I think most people subconsciously wonder what the keeper did wrong to allow the snake to escape, but it usually seems rather tactless to ask him/her when it's just happened because, usually, s/he's already distraught enough as it is. We don't want to kick while s/he's down.

And I'm sure part of it is Fortuna's ironic sense of humor: the second we criticize someone for allowing a snake to escape, we'll turn around and realize our own vivs are mysteriously empty.

(After typing that, I had to run and check on Eve. )

 

[susang]

This sort of sounds like true confessions: I did co-hab with my first two corns, but learned the hard way it was not a good idea, as one died from stress. I have also had escapes one was a tank with a plug in the bottom, the snake pried the plug up and got out, it lived. Second time snake got out the smallest whole, cats found it stack of quilts, it lived. I'm ashamed to say this same snake got out about two weeks ago, entirely my fault I had her out to check her and did not put lid back securely. She went down onto the floor across the room up a table across the table through the same stack of quilts and was in these crate type things I have stacked on the table with fabric in them. I was walking down the hall an thought something is wrong with this picture, when I realized a snake was looking at me from where a snake shouldn't be. The cats were all sitting looking up at her. She is snug and secure in her viv. So three times in four years I've had escapes.
The thing about all this is I put stones on top of viv covers, three stones on the tops of sterlite for hatchlings. Three of five vivs with screen top also have a wood top.
It bothers me when people say my snake has gotten out several times in the past weeks and I don't know how? It also bothers me when people say oops! my snake is pregnant. Now everytime I go past the viv the snake got out two weeks ago I check the lid. She's moving to a 20 long soon or I would change her lid completely.
I think this topic is controversial because of the people who say can I co-habit, but do it anyway. The people with repeat escapes boggle me :shrugs: susan

 

[Plissken]

I'm with Dean here.

I have never had an escape and if I ever do, it will be my fault. Snakes don't magic through walls - if they get out, it's because I carelessly left a gap open to them.

I hate the ones where people say they 'left the door open'. In my mind leaving the door of an animal's cage open and walking away is negligent. :shrugs:

 

[whippet]

I have yet to lose my snake, but I did have an escaped 4 foot iguana. How do you even lose that big a lizard? He had his own room...but I left the window open about a foot...for the fresh air. I came home later to find a small hole in the screen...and no lizard. He was gone. We searched for days...even weeks. He was gone.
I was devistated.
I guess when I hear about an escapee now, I am just more understanding.

 

[Susan]

First off...

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to diamondlil again.

Second...

Yes I've been inept enough to let my snakes escape, on one occasion I managed the monumentally stupid feeding day escape of 4 snakes.
I didn't find it at all funny except as relief when I found them all.
I think the reason it's dealt with sympathetically is because it's a mistake of omission, rather than a deliberate choice. As in most people don't preface an escape thread with 'I knew my lid was dodgy but I kept my snake in that tank anyway', but there are quite a few 'I've read about co-habbing problems but I choose to do it anyway'
Perhaps the real issue is that neither type of thread needs to be jumped on :shrugs:

I've had escapes...but I also have about 85 adults and subadults and almost 300 hatchlings right now. I've had 2 escapes this year...one I found and the other is still MIA. I'm only human and accidents happen...usually around feeding time. Is this an excuse? No. Am I a negligent corn snake owner? I don't think so. No more negligent than accidentally closing a lid on a snake's neck or a faulty UTH or incubator getting too hot and "cooking" the snake or eggs. We all know that poop happens.

Showing sympathy and support to those that have had an escape is not being hypocritical (for those that jump on cohabbers). It's acknowledging the fact that nobody is perfect. But then, I don't jump on those people that cohabitate, especially if they weren't aware of the risks involved. I will make them aware of the risks, but that's it. Many people cohabitate their snakes and are fully aware of the risks and never have a problem. That's fine. I do appreciate those cohabbers telling others about incidents they have experienced as examples of what can go wrong. If they then decide to no longer cohabitate, great. If they choose to continue, again, it is their choice. I have no sympathy or support for the people that are fully aware of the risks they take in cohabitating their snakes, but then come here all teary-eyed, whining about the fact that one snake was eaten by another or their 2 year old 150 gram female is gravid. You chose to ignore the risks for whatever reason, live with your decision.

There is alot of misinformation out there concerning different aspects of corn snake care, such as pet shops telling new owners to feed their corn snakes crickets. There are also differing views on several topics, including cohabitation. One of the main purposes of this forum is to try to educate new owners (and even the experienced pros learn new things upon occasion). If someone is being a complete moron, by all means, jump all over them, they aren't going to listen anyway. But for the rest of the people, educating them with civility will go much farther than beating them with a stick for not reading the FAQs at the top of the subforums when they got their snake a year ago but only found this website today.

 

[Roy Munson]

I don't think I clearly communicated my exact feelings on this matter, and I think this was the paragraph that requires clarification:

So why is the trend on cs.com to jump on cohabbers, but shower escape-allowers with sympathy and support? I’ve seen members post about multiple escape from the SAME snake, and everyone laughs it off and wishes good luck. Why? “I’m re-naming him Houdini!!11! LOL!11!” Give me a break. Most snakes and ALL corns are little “Houdinis”. Your snake ain’t special; you’re just an inept keeper.

Honestly, I really didn't mean to imply that a keeper who has had escapes is inept (you know I don't think you're inept, Janine and Susan). I realize that it reads that way, but I didn't mean it that way. I also didn't mean to imply that all people who have had escapes take these escapes lightly.

My comments were directed at those who DO take escapes lightly, and allow the same snake to escape multiple times from the same enclosure. For example, I recently saw a thread where people gave advice for recovering an escaped snake, but the original poster was lucky enough to find the snake. The snake had escaped one other time previously. The original poster thanked the other members for their advice and said that he/she would use these tips NEXT TIME. This didn't sit well with me. And we've all seen the "Houdini" threads where a snake gets out over and over, but the poster isn't worried because they always find li'l snake-ums behind the refrigerator, or wherever. I have no sympathy for these people, and I'm not going to participate in the lame and trite "Houdini" jokes.

And one other thing. If you have an escaped snake, I'll tell you where NOT to look for it: your computer monitor.

 

[cassandra]

Interesting read....I had never thought about the irony before.

I've had one partial escape. Partial as the snake was not all the out of his cage yet (it takes a while for a 10' python to slither 10'). COMPLETELY my fault - I hadn't put the lock on the sliding glass door.

Easily remedied; scoop the snake up and stuff the disappointed bad boy back in his cage and then ALWAYS remember to put the damn locks back on.

 

[snakewispera snr]

I've never had an escape either. mainly because I'm like others on here,I set up and test well in advance of getting any snakes.(in fact I have a number of set ups ready to rock n roll).
Perhaps it would help new herpers to study the way venomous snakes are kept, you really don't want them escaping.
at the moment I'm trying to put together a purpose built snake room. All secure Viv's. easy of access. and no nooks or cranny's.
If a snake gets out it can only get to the floor and no further. the room totally seeled and an observation window to see whats what before entering the room. all light switches on the outside.
O.k. this may be over the top, but,I would like a DWA to get a pair of Golden eyelash Vipers. so this is necessary to comply with the law.
If I never go down the hot road I still got a nice snake room so nothing lost (excuse the pun)
MIKE

 

[Blue Apple Herps]

I disagree somewhat with you Dean. I would definately call it hypocrisy if someone had a shoddy lid that they kept using out of choice and kept having escapes or had an unlocked cage around a two yr old who kept letting the snake out. That would be unacceptable and would need to be condemned.

But everyone has escapes (those of you that haven't consider yourself lucky). Escapes are accidental whereas co-habitating is deliberate. You don't accidently put two snakes in the same cage. And for new owners; they don't realize just how good of escape artists snakes are. So even they may believe they have an escape proof system they may only discover it isn't so perfect when their snake goes missing. Now if they do nothing to correct it then that's a problem. But if they get stronger clips or whatever to prevent it again then at least they're making an effort to ameliorate the problem.

Sometimes, people don't even know how their snake escaped as everything appears to be secure. My very first corn got out about 4 times before I figured out there was the smallest chip in his lid on the underside that allowed him to get through. A glance at the lid and set up and you would have thought everything was a-ok. I don't consider me to be a poor owner as I was doing everything I could at the time to try and fix the problem. Once I found out what it was I went and bought a new lid ASAP.

As I said earlier when people are told about the risks of cohabitating, do it anyways, and then have problems they should be condemned. Likewise if someone is told "Hey that lid isn't secured" or "your set up will be a recipe for an escape" and they ignore that advice and they have an escape then I have no sympathy for them either in the smae way I had for the cohabitating people.

But if they have an escape in good faith and learn from their mistake, then why not be sympathetic towards them? We've all been there and know how nerve racking it is when a snake is out.