CornSnake in the wild.... :)

[RobbiesCornField]

I was just stating my opinion. It also much colder in north fl. than s.fl. where I live..It never freezes here, and that brings the chances of survival down. At least try to keep it til the spring and let them grow up in warm weather...

Considering that the natural range of the cornsnake is all the way up to just south of New Jersey, I think they'll do fine and dandy.

 

[mynamesrick]

If those captive bred morhs could talk they would say, Please don`t release me! Give someone a chance to let me live..

I'm sure they'd have more to say than that! haha and I'm pretty sure rich wouldn't lie about finding a wild lavender motley or whatever it was on his property.. just sayin'..

 

[mynamesrick]

Considering that the natural range of the cornsnake is all the way up to just south of New Jersey, I think they'll do fine and dandy.

I haven't repped anybody in weeks, but apparently that's too often.. sorry! haha

 

[wstphal]

I'm fresh out of pandas.

Bummer! We need a panda!

 

[Shiari]

I have yet to see bfreewally1 ever post anything of use or intelligence. Apparently the trend continues.

And on the topic.... ceduke and I have decided that we need to visit you sometime in the near future and go herping on your property, Rich. I promise to only take home any charcoals I find. *giggles*

 

[scottsquatch]

I have to admit...it'd be pretty darn cool to find a motley lavender in my yard. While I am pretty sure some will succumb to predation, some will make it. At least Rich gave them a shot at survival. It is also important to note that nobody is "messing" with mother nature. Most of the mutations discovered in the cornsnake genepool were already presesnt. They just had better odds of expressing themselves in smaller populations (collections) than in the wild. Think about that....dude.

 

[wstphal]

And on the topic.... ceduke and I have decided that we need to visit you sometime in the near future and go herping on your property, Rich. I promise to only take home any charcoals I find. *giggles*

Only if I don't find them first! But I will pay for them in slave labor if I do.

 

[Rich Z]

Odds are all your released snakes will die. It`s cruel. Let the wild ones live there and stop trying to change mother nature. Sell them and make a few bucks. Morphs don`t do well in the wild. Maybe one in a million will survive..

Do you have any facts at all to substantiate a wild claim like this? Any studies you have done, or perhaps even a quote from someone who actually has done such a study?

If those captive bred morhs could talk they would say, Please don`t release me! Give someone a chance to let me live..
"The chance of them surviving are like hitting the lotto.. I think the photo is a scam anyway unless it was recently released and found again.

Yeah, right.... Open up a cage with a corn snake in it and watch what happens. And again it appears you are just pulling a statistic out of your nether regions that you most certainly can't substantiate..

As for the photo being a scam, if you ever call me a liar again, I will boot your ass out of this site so fast that it will make your head spin.

I was just stating my opinion. It also much colder in north fl. than s.fl. where I live..It never freezes here, and that brings the chances of survival down. At least try to keep it til the spring and let them grow up in warm weather...

Obviously you know absolutely nothing at all about the natural history of the corn snake. Matter of fact, so far from your postings within this thread, I'm having trouble finding anything at all that you have stated that contains any facts at all.

 

[Kevin S.]

I know I shouldn't speak my mind on this, but I just can't resist regardless of how unpopular my opinion is going to be. I frown on this practice of releasing captive snakes, especially morphs. If the property is completely isolated in such a way that these snakes can't eventually spread their genes throughout the surrounding populations (essentially an outdoor enclosure) I can live with it. I'm pretty sure that's not the case here though.

Rich, I'm not trying to be disrespectful and hopefully you won't take offense to this and ban me forever, but since you've posted it so publicly I thought a public rebuttal would be appropriate. This is a forum after all and hopefully I can express my opinion in an appropriate way whether it's in line with yours or not. This is your site and plenty of people here look up to you and try to follow your example in the realm of snake keeping. That much is obvious from this thread alone where so many members have praised your practice of releasing your snakes. I can't imagine anyone here would honestly be praising Joe Nobody if he posted that he released his trio of amel stripes and found two again behind his house years later. It's a different situation if you, Don, or Kathy make such a claim though because so many people look up to you herpetocultural celebrities and assume you must know what you're doing if snakes are involved.

I acknowledge that a large part of the way I feel is my personal opinion since I feel that natural herp populations should be as undisturbed and...well, natural as possible. I won't say that many of the morphs released will not survive, since I feel like a decent percentage would based on my personal herping experience. For a short time I cared for a wild caught albino ringneck snake that was discovered in my region. There are also many examples of albino, leucistic, etc snakes being located as adults in the wild. Sure it can hinder them in some cases (bird predation especially comes to mind since birds orient to prey visually) but not every snake that looks different is more prone to predation. If you disagree, consider how much time they spend concealed under cover and how many predators locate snakes largely without the use of vision. Kingsnakes would be an example since they follow scent trails to locate prey.

The point I'm trying to make is that some of these snakes will survive and reproduce with each other as well as the naturally occurring snakes. There's also the question of the purity of many captive corns. Creamsicle descendants would have some emoryi influence, ultra morphs may pass on gray rat influence (depending on your thoughts about the origin of this morph). There are also negative traits like stargazing to consider-these could be introduced to wild populations through release of captives. I'm fine with hybrids in captivity, but many people aren't. Where are all of these purists now? If they're so outraged that future generations of captive corns might not be completely "pure," should they not be more offended that future generations of wild corns could be tainted?

Basically, this is needless meddling in my eyes. Even if it leads to nothing other than a fair proportion of corn morphs being produced in the wild, how is it ethical to tamper with the wild stock based on what one person enjoys on his property? Unless contained somehow, these snakes can easily spread and, given enough time, perpetuate genetic anomalies over a much broader range. It could take decades or longer, but what if the entire state of Florida eventually became such a genetic hodgepodge due to the release of captive corns that only half of them appeared normal (and many of those normals would be hets) and the other half was a mix of various mutations? It may be unrealistic to expect such an outcome from one breeder releasing some snakes, but we don't know how many have been released. It could be hundreds or more. Also, imagine what it would do to the captive breeding market if anyone could go out on a collecting trip and snatch up a butter motley or a striped charcoal for free.

There's also the domino effect to consider. If ignorant breeders look at this example Rich has set and think it's such a cool idea, why wouldn't they follow suit and do the same thing in their areas (magnifying the effects of this practice)? Some here might take offense to my use of the word ignorant, but unless you have a background in ecology, you really don't know the possible effects such an action could have. Personally I have a master's in biology which I acquired in a lab focusing on herpetological natural history. I don't claim to be an expert on the possible effects of releasing these snakes, but I have enough knowledge to understand that these actions WILL affect the natural populations in the area, and potentially in a negative way.

Even if every snake released was a locality animal descended from stock collected on that property, releasing them in sufficient numbers would affect the carrying capacity of the ecosystem if nothing else. On that note, can anyone provide a single example of humans tampering with an ecosystem that was beneficial? If so, make sure it wasn't in response to a previous man-made change in the ecosystem (repopulating wolves that were extirpated by humans, etc). That's how I feel and I welcome any thoughtful, informed counterpoints.

 

[Rich Z]

Just answer a rather simple question for me Kevin. What exactly is mutation and what is it's assumed purpose within a species?

 

[Calift]

I agree with Kevin on this one.....it sets a bad example that releasing captive animals is okay....which does not reflect well on the reptile industry as a whole.

 

[Buzzard]

Seriously People, Do you really think a morph like that is going to over take the native population.

I know what it is, because corns are such an Apex predator. Or wait maybe they are a nuisance animal. Yes lets put out a hunt for all non normal corn snakes. They might eat all the squirrels oh my gosh!!!!!

What are the odds? Rich I find it neat that you found the one that made it.

 

[Chip]

There is a difference between releasing an animal where it is native and where it is not. I have only released progeny of Okeetees I collected myself, and I know when I run across one! The drab local corns are getting a splash of color, is how I see it. Is that tampering? Perhaps, but enough survive that I find them again (and I don't release many, just poor feeders and extra males). How much worse would it be to release an amel? For that particular snake, possibly worse since it is more likely to end up on a menu, but then it's out of the gene pool -problem solved. Turning iguanas and Burmese loose would be another matter, but releasing some healthy corn snakes in corn snake country doesn't sound like the worst offense in the world. And I don't think the opal stripe market is gonna crash because so many people are finding them!

 

[mynamesrick]

like somebody said before(robbie i think).. As long as its within the natural habitat of the animal why should it matter? Its not like he's releasing animals from over seas like ball pythons, retics, and burms.. They're his animals, he can do what he wants with them.

 

[Saffleur]

Mole hill ..... Mountain.

 

[Rich Z]

Nature works in strange ways. I don't think it takes a big chunk of imagination to make the conceptual link in how the pet trade is actually a symbiotic relationship. Carrying that thought a little further, it doesn't strain the brain muscles much to see that an animal that has a mutation that is attractive to humans could very well be a survival strategy at work.

 

[wstphal]

Nature works in strange ways. I don't think it takes a big chunk of imagination to make the conceptual link in how the pet trade is actually a symbiotic relationship. Carrying that thought a little further, it doesn't strain the brain muscles much to see that an animal that has a mutation that is attractive to humans could very well be a survival strategy at work.

It definitely HAS been a survival strategy for some species. It is thought that both domestic horses & domestic cattle would have become extinct except that they became domesticated because they had mutations that made them useful to humans.

At least we are now talking about this like adults!

Personally, I can't see that releasing color morphs of cornsnakes in the normal wild range of corn snakes will do any harm. If they survive, they will contribute their genetics to the local population, but most color morphs are recessive so will be invisible. Serpenco snakes certainly wouldn't be carrying any CONTAGIOUS diseases that would hurt the local wild corn snakes. So no risk of carrying infection to wild FL cornsnakes. Probably most won't survive, some will. Corn snakes in the wild are probably prolific but very few survive, and I can't see how the released snakes are going to alter that dynamic much. They aren't an invasive species, they were released where corn snakes normally occur, so it's not like reticulated pythons or kudzu.

But I think sensible adults can have different opinions & Kevin S has certainly thought his opinion out & certainly has a knowledge base to ground it in, so this is all cool. Humans certainly can & have screwed up the local environment in many areas. And the domino effect could be real & major. I can't imagine a few snakes from one breeder making any difference in an area that already has corn snakes, but if everybody that bred corns snakes did this it could well get out of hand & that's something I hadn't thought of previously.

 

[Rich Z]

Sorry, but I just can't believe that anyone can seriously think that even if everyone now producing corn snakes released most of their stock into the wild, that it would have even the slightest impact when compared to the damage that mankind has done with habitat destruction and the MANY MANY animals killed on the highways annually. Not to mention that the habitat destruction normally involves the establishment in that area of a species of mammal that will often take a shovel to any corn snake that dared try to reclaim their ancestral homestead.

And there is also the consideration that mankind has also been instrumental in the establishment of fire ants through most of Florida, which has had a devastating impact on nearly all egg laying reptiles.

Yeah, releasing corn snakes is sure going to be devastating in comparison.....

 

[Kevin S.]

Just answer a rather simple question for me Kevin. What exactly is mutation and what is it's assumed purpose within a species?

It may be a simple question, but I'm afraid it doesn't necessarily have such a simple answer. New World Encyclopedia defines mutation as "a sudden change in the base pair sequence of the genetic material of a living organism, whether the genetic material be DNA or RNA. In multicellular organisms that reproduce sexually, mutations can be subdivided into germ line mutations, which can be passed on to descendants, and somatic mutations, which cannot be transmitted to descendants in animals."

Dictionary.com provides a more simplified applicable definition and calls mutation "a sudden departure from the parent type in one or more heritable characteristics, caused by a change in a gene or a chromosome." There are other definitions that are less applicable to biology specifically, but I think we all understand what mutation is in essence (at least in this case) though we might word it differently.

As far as the assumed purpose of mutation, there is none. Mutations are random though they might be caused by triggered specific factor such as incubation temperature for example. They are merely a change resulting in an organism and can be neutral, negative, or positive (though positive mutations are relatively rare). Changes in the color and pattern of corn snakes may fall into the neutral category since they don't harm the animals themselves in most cases unless they increase the risk of predation. There are examples of negative color/pattern mutations though, such as the calico or piebald corns that developed blisters in the white areas. There are also negative physical mutations such as lack of scales, two heads, serious kinks, etc.

There is a difference between releasing an animal where it is native and where it is not. I have only released progeny of Okeetees I collected myself, and I know when I run across one! The drab local corns are getting a splash of color, is how I see it. Is that tampering? Perhaps, but enough survive that I find them again (and I don't release many, just poor feeders and extra males).

Turning iguanas and Burmese loose would be another matter, but releasing some healthy corn snakes in corn snake country doesn't sound like the worst offense in the world.

Of course there is a difference in introducing a species or releasing captive animals within their natural range. That doesn't make the latter option any more wise though, just potentially less damaging. You've helped me make my point that many of the corns you released survived and you found them again in spite of the fact that they may be more brightly colored. If poor feeding has any genetic heritability, that could negatively affect the local population. Extra males would obviously tip the sex ratio in the area where they were released and those extra males eating the extra mice and anoles might limit the prey available for females that need to yolk their eggs. These are just examples off the top of my head of negative effects which could result from this practice. While it may not be "the worse offense in the world," as I said, it doesn't make it any more wise.

Nature works in strange ways. I don't think it takes a big chunk of imagination to make the conceptual link in how the pet trade is actually a symbiotic relationship. Carrying that thought a little further, it doesn't strain the brain muscles much to see that an animal that has a mutation that is attractive to humans could very well be a survival strategy at work.

I don't think this would apply in very many cases at all. If your average uneducated snake hater sees a snake on the road, I doubt he'd be any less likely to kill it if it was yellow, striped, or lacking melanin.

Personally, I can't see that releasing color morphs of cornsnakes in the normal wild range of corn snakes will do any harm. If they survive, they will contribute their genetics to the local population, but most color morphs are recessive so will be invisible. Serpenco snakes certainly wouldn't be carrying any CONTAGIOUS diseases that would hurt the local wild corn snakes. So no risk of carrying infection to wild FL cornsnakes. Probably most won't survive, some will. Corn snakes in the wild are probably prolific but very few survive, and I can't see how the released snakes are going to alter that dynamic much. They aren't an invasive species, they were released where corn snakes normally occur, so it's not like reticulated pythons or kudzu.

OK, I'll try to address a few things here.
1. "If they survive, they will contribute their genetics to the local population, but most color morphs are recessive so will be invisible."

That would be a big part of the problem-they'd contribute their genes when/where they otherwise wouldn't. Does no one else understand there's a reason we don't have many naturally occurring corn morphs? Even if the morphs are recessive, those hets can and will produce more morphs. What if some amels hatch out and do very well, initially outcompeting other hatchlings due to their larger size and increased vigor from generations in captivity? These snakes might then be preyed upon heavily as adults due to being more visible. Those that survive would continue to pass on their genes, perpetuating the cycle and magnifying the problem (ultimately decreasing the corn population). Again, this is just hypothetical but there are so many possibilities, and I don't think any I've mentioned are especially unrealistic.

2. "Serpenco snakes certainly wouldn't be carrying any CONTAGIOUS diseases that would hurt the local wild corn snakes. So no risk of carrying infection to wild FL cornsnakes."

Sorry, but you have no data to back that up. Snakes can and do get ill. As many corns as Rich has, I'm sure some of them have had health issues. It's not necessarily any reflection on his husbandry, just statistics. If that wasn't the case, there'd be no need to quarantine any new acquisitions. The fact that Rich is an experienced big-name breeder doesn't somehow make all of his snakes flawlessly healthy.

3. "They aren't an invasive species, they were released where corn snakes normally occur, so it's not like reticulated pythons or kudzu."

Maybe not, but if there are 20 adult corns on Rich's property right now, there's a reason for that. It's balance and ecological dynamics. Here's another hypothetical scenario: If 20 new corns were released on his property when naturally there would only be 20, there would obviously be increased competition for food. This could obviously affect the corns. What about other rat snakes that are there like gray or yellow rats? They have similar diets and this influx of new hungry individuals might affect them too.

Sorry, but I just can't believe that anyone can seriously think that even if everyone now producing corn snakes released most of their stock into the wild, that it would have even the slightest impact when compared to the damage that mankind has done with habitat destruction and the MANY MANY animals killed on the highways annually. Not to mention that the habitat destruction normally involves the establishment in that area of a species of mammal that will often take a shovel to any corn snake that dared try to reclaim their ancestral homestead.

And there is also the consideration that mankind has also been instrumental in the establishment of fire ants through most of Florida, which has had a devastating impact on nearly all egg laying reptiles.

Yeah, releasing corn snakes is sure going to be devastating in comparison.....

I never said this would be the worst ecological problem ever, only that it has a very real chance of causing unforseen problems. You're absolutely right that human intervention and habitat destruction has been devastating to wild snake populations, and it's possible that your actions will not cause as much damage down the road as these have. Why cause any damage at all though? Why not allow the snakes to exist without any further meddling? You may have a large cheering section now, but if your actions did cause problems of any considerable scale down the road, would it really be worth it because you as one individual enjoy finding atypical-looking corns on your property?

Again, I'm not trying to be offensive, just to increase awareness of the possible consequences of this decision. If you really think I'm being so irrational and jumping to far-fetched conclusions, I encourage you to occasionally check this post on the issue I made on another forum: http://www.fieldherpforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=28684&sid=6ee784e44259fb89f0689ac693ceda55

I tried to word the thread in such a way as to minimize bias and protect your identity. There are no replies yet since I just posted it, so I don't know which side of the debate will be supported. That board is full of individuals from all walks of life, but includes quite a few academically trained ecologists, taxonomists, and biologists of various specialties. Hopefully there will be some very informative responses from those much more qualified than I am on this issue.

If you read nothing else in this post, note the following:

There's a reason tampering with ecosystems causes a chain of effects-it's a food chain! Maybe the consequences aren't immediately obvious, but that certainly doesn't mean there won't be any.

I assume everyone here is familiar with the ecological disaster caused by Cane Toads in Australia. I'm NOT saying this is analogous to what Rich is doing because Cane Toads are a highly unpalatable, toxic predator introduced well outside their natural range-it's just not the same thing. However, Reginald Mungomery (the man in charge of their introduction) said one year after their introduction:

"This introduction into Queensland was made only after a careful analysis of the pros and cons, and, according to the behaviour of the toad up to present, there appears to be no reason for the assumption that we have made an error in our judgement."

He was paying attention-he weighed the pros and cons and tried to put forethought into his decision with good intentions. He didn't simply do it because he thought it would be a fun idea, but look how that ended up regardless. Even a year after their introduction, the massive damage they eventually caused hadn't been observed. Like I said, show me a single example where humans tampering with an ecosystem has been beneficial when it wasn't cleaning up the mess caused by previous tampering-I honestly do not know of a single case.

These disasters aren't often caused with malicious intent, but by those who don't understand the consequences of their actions. Unless you're very familiar with corn snake ecology in wild (population densities, home range sizes, carrying capacity, regional variations in natural history), you simply can not even make an educated guess how playing with the natural order will or will not affect the future.

Finally, I've spoken my mind and backed up my claims (at least in my own mind)-I won't keep repeating my stance on this issue for the sake of making my disagreement obvious. If anyone specifically addresses me further on any part of this issue, I'll try to continue to keep up with the thread though.

 

[TandJ]

Well lets look back at what was retrieved from the wild as morph... Dr Betchel, found the original Amel that brought on the snale craze today.. We know there has been and still thrives some anery group in Florida, likely to be a natural group as well..

Heck, I wonder how many treasures a guy like Danial Parker has found... Lots of variety in Corns, and even in Upper Keys..