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cornsnake manipulating and managment in captivity

R

RIOSMA

New member
hello guys...firstly i would like to apologise for being inactive to this forum for so long.the reason why this happened is because i was working on my report that you are about to view now.as my thread is pretty big please don't get bored of reading it because i believe that my observations are intresting and should be examined.as i am from greece and i would like to apologise for my bad english..
my observation has to do with cornsnake fatal rate.i know that in a single clutch of a cornsnake the 30% of the offsprings will die.in nature this happens because predators will feed on the most of the babies or on speciments that are quite big meals.another genetic factor has to deal with fatality.this has to do with genes and how the animal will survive in nature remember that the strongest animal lives and transports the genes of the species to the next generation.i have found that in captivity the same law appears with another face.from my observations of my clutches at period 2004-5:all of the offsprings were kept in different boxes with one snake per box.the 90% of my babies got well enstablished and the other 10% couldn't get a regular feeding scedule.this year all of my offsprings were in big group of 36.the problem i had to confront was very big.in the first feed only the strongest ones did well.so i took these babies in a different container placed together.the snakes that were in the group were acting in different kind of way.they were all together in big snake ball.even with force feeding nothing changed.they couldn't eat.when one of these snakes died four of them started feeding immediately!.the other guys passed away.my opinion is that the babies in 2004-5 season did better because they were singles and they faced fear which turned into power for living and strong will.thus i strongly believe that a percentage of them could die unexpectedly because genes can deal an animal's future and life limit.this year's babies were all together having each other's security and feeling non vulnerable.the ones that started feeding when four snakes of their group died means to me that they understood that something is going wrong.i do not discuss the attitude of the snakes started feeding first because this means that they were the best feeders and the most tough snakes.so is it really possible for the snake to have a kind of intelligence to act like that?is there a suspicion that humans cannot concern or haven't the knowlege to accept something like that?am i surprised because i was too shallow?is a report which can base my observations?and finally why in the second case the element of competition didn't appeared?i could bet that all of them would readily start feeding when competition takes place...as happens with mating.a friend of mine has a gaboon viper and once told me that he had to force feed her and the first time she did like crazy with her fangs.the second time she was tame as a sheep.he told me that she understood that he had no bad intentions.today i believe that animals do have big rate of intelligence.please answer my questions and please give your comments.
 
I have a few questions for you...How did you go about feeding those that you forced to live in a community situation? Were they put in separate containers at feed time, or left to fight for the food within the group?

And last but not least, do you believe that in the wild that snakes stay together and live as a community after they are born? They do not. I feel the stress factor of the communal setting in itself is enough to cause problems within the animals, thus the high mortality rate that you experienced. If your experiment was to test natural mortality rates and strength in genes, then i feel the communal habitation of the snakes could have messed up your results from being accurate.

Best wishes
 
I know you're from Greece, but I found it really hard to read that huge block of text. My eyes got lost. Add some punctuation and I suspect more people will consider your proposals.

I did understand some of it though, and would like to throw my thoughts in to the mix...

You say that single snakes had a better success rate than the group. I would like to suggest a reason for this. Snakes do not like being forced to live together and it causes stress. Which in turn can cause feeding problems. Your snakes living together may not have eaten because they were stressed.

As to their perception of things "going wrong" - a snake doesn't know what you want from it. He doesn't know that the big walking tree wants him to feed. He isn't aware that it upsets you. He probably has no perception that his not eating is "wrong." Have you considered that, after the 4 snakes died, the other snakes did not feel so stressed because there were less animals in with them and that's why they then ate?
 
I am a amateur herpetologist. My first hand knowledge of snakes is based on a happy childhood growing up in the south eastern United States. I spent practically every day of tolerable weather poking around the "bottoms", i.e. wooded mini valleys. I had several wild caught pet snakes.

I've never had the opportunity to be involved with controlled studies of snakes in a laboratory. I do read everything I can get my hands on. I do have research background and i will tell you this. Observations of one hatch in a noncontrolled environment should not be relied upon. Animal husbandry in snakes has evolved to the level where we have some foundation information that can be considered reliable.

I believe that most professional snake breeders have exceedingly high survival rates, from what I read higher than a lot of the other species I have raised. The consensus of those breeders is hatchlings kept separate do better than those kept in large groups. Personally, I'm not willing to jeopardize the viability of my pets to satisfy my academic curiosity.
 
" Personally, I'm not willing to jeopardize the viability of my pets to satisfy my academic curiosity."

AMEN to that!
 
Having bred guineapigs, gerbils and zebra finches, I'm aware that not all animals are created equal and that some may have genetic or developmental problems that canot be overcome. So when I get to breed my corns I know that even with the best husbandry I may have fatalities.
That being said, to deliberately give conditions that others have already proved to my satisfaction to be less than optimal is beyond me. I will follow the best practice advised by established breeders and seperate hatchlings to give them the best chance to thrive and grow.
I just cannot understand your reasoning for your experiment or your conclusions at all.
 
diamondlil said:
That being said, to deliberately give conditions that others have already proved to my satisfaction to be less than optimal is beyond me. I will follow the best practice advised by established breeders and seperate hatchlings to give them the best chance to thrive and grow.
I just cannot understand your reasoning for your experiment or your conclusions at all.
Click to expand...

I would agree with this. I don't know why four snakes died - unless they all keeled over at exactly the same moment, did you not make any conclusions from the deaths of the first two, and then three?

Those snakes may have eaten and lived if they had not been kept in such stressful conditions. For me, all your experiment proves is that snakes do not like living together - something most of us already knew.
 
i have obviously no reason to improve my academic talent simoly because i am not a pro.seconldy the snakes that died were concluded in the 30% of the survival rate.do you know what sudden death in reptiles is?i believe that you know this and how this term is linked.sudden death has to do with the gene clock that every organism has.when the time expires you all know that death comes.this happens in all species moslty in fishes,incects,reptiles and amphibians as these classes produce a big number of speciments.what i have asked and would like to have your opinion has to do with the competition factor.in captivity a number of factors do not appear as in the wild.you say that i caused stress because i kept them in groups.i say that i did not caused any of streess because there was group and every speciment was feeling safe.they did not feeling vulenerable at all.you all know that anyone can make a snake eat if plece it with snakes that are already eating so as to improve cometition.
 
you say that i caused stress because i kept them in groups.i say that i did not caused any of streess because there was group and every speciment was feeling safe.they did not feeling vulenerable at all.

You can only speculate what you THINK the snakes feel. No, they do not feel "safe" in groups. They are loner animals. Have you ever gone and studied snakes in the wild??? This is how you truly learn about these creatures. They are not communal, and you never find them sleeping together in clumps. In communal captive enviroments they simply choose to be where the best hide or heat gradient is at the time and if others are there then so be it. It is all a competition for them in these group enviroments.

In captive breeding we are able to provide better conditions, thus most of us choose to do so to ensure a higher survival rate. In my opinion, your study is full of flaws and uselessness to improving any fact base in herpetology. This is not said to be mean, it is simply my opinion.
 
I agree with Bill on this subject. I also have some research experience and know that observing only two groups of snakes is not enough to prove or disprove a hypothesis. To validate any results I think u need to study many groups with the same or similar genetic backgrounds. Remember, there is alot of inbreeding involved in producing the corns that are produced in the pet trade compared to that in the wild, and like any other organism that can/will result in higher mortality rates.
 
firebreather500 said:
I agree with Bill on this subject. I also have some research experience and know that observing only two groups of snakes is not enough to prove or disprove a hypothesis. To validate any results I think u need to study many groups with the same or similar genetic backgrounds. Remember, there is alot of inbreeding involved in producing the corns that are produced in the pet trade compared to that in the wild, and like any other organism that can/will result in higher mortality rates.
Click to expand...
inbreeding will only result in higher mortality if deleterious genes are present and re-inforced in that population. Also unless comparisons of the genetics from a wild population show huge diversity due to migration into and out of the area, an isolated wild population could be possibly as closely related as a captive breeding group
 
RIOSMA said:
you all know that anyone can make a snake eat if plece it with snakes that are already eating so as to improve cometition.
Click to expand...

I personally do not know this "fact" you have stated.

In my experience, placing a "nonfeeder" with other reptiles that are feeding is a great way to get the weaker nonfeeder eaten by one of the ones who IS eating... I lost one baby gecko in exactly that way this year - the more aggressive feeders picked on it, consumed its tail, and it died.

If I had a nonfeeder of any reptile species, my first and only response would be to isolate the animal and feed completely separately.

The snakes in your 'group' experiment were stressed - they were pushed into unnatural crowding conditions and had to compete strongly for food and the areas of correct heat for their thermoregulation. This caused the weaker animals to suffer and die. The snakes you kept separately were unstressed and able to grow to their potential because they were not subjected to crowding or competition for resources.
 
RIOSMA said:
you say that i caused stress because i kept them in groups.i say that i did not caused any of streess because there was group and every speciment was feeling safe..
Click to expand...

So the snakes all leaped in together for a slumber party, did they? Given the choice snakes will NOT group together. They were in a group because you forced them to form one. Snakes do not feel 'comforted' by other snakes.

I don't mean to be rude, but you clearly have very little grasp on the requirements and behaviour of a corn snake. A shameful way to treat animals in the name of "research", and you haven't proved a thing.
 
I'm a little confused. Your first "study" states that when you housed seperately you had many animals that fed. In your second "study" communally fed animals had a higher mortality rate. This would seem to disprove your theory of it being better to house together. I had a clutch of 21 snakes. They all ate but 3. They were all housed seperately. Of the 3 non-feeders, 2 eventually ate when presented with anole scented lizard. One hatchling was euthanized after it refused all food. If I were to go by the single clutch, I would say there was less than a 30% mortality rate with my animals and I would think that you'll find that to be true of most breeders here. If you study cornsnakes in the wild, you would find that they are not communal. The only time you would see them together after hatching is when they first come out of the egg. They soon disperse. Nature would make this logical as there is no parent providing for them and an area could only support a small portion of the population at one time. A wider dispersal leads to a greater chance of an available food source. Your "study", and I use this term loosely, is terribly flawed and I find it troubling that you would put the animals thru this without at least attempting to make this more scientifically believable. This is just a sensless waste of an animal for your enjoyment I guess.
 
RIOSMA said:
i know that in a single clutch of a cornsnake the 30% of the offsprings will die.in nature this happens because predators will feed on the most of the babies or on speciments that are quite big meals.another genetic factor has to deal with fatality.this has to do with genes and how the animal will survive in nature remember that the strongest animal lives and transports the genes of the species to the next generation.
Click to expand...

Please state your reference text.

Also, you seem to loosely hint at Darwinian theory with the strongest animals live concept. It is not the 'strongest' animals live as much much as it is the fittest animals should live and pass their genes on to the next generation. The animals fitness can depend on a number of things: strength, camoflauge, speed, etc... Not necessarily strength alone.


RIOSMA said:
do you know what sudden death in reptiles is?i believe that you know this and how this term is linked.sudden death has to do with the gene clock that every organism has.when the time expires you all know that death comes.this happens in all species moslty in fishes,incects,reptiles and amphibians as these classes produce a big number of speciments.
Click to expand...

Again, please state your reference text.

The only sudden death that I have heard of is that of a shovel or car tire. This hypothesis you speak of is one I have not seen. Does not mean it does not exist...simply I have not heard/read about it and it does not make a whole lot of sense to me. When the 'time' expires? Are you saying that many animals have a programmed time clock that destroys them...whether they are healthy or not? No matter the condition of the animals it is set to die at some predetermined time? If you are talking about general life span...that is different. But a clock that goes off I find this hard to believe.
 
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