Creamsicle Corn Snake - Elaphe guttata x emoryi

[Jimmy Johnson]

One point

There were many valid points made for both sides of the discussion and everyone knows my love of creams so I won't repeat what everyone else has said .
I just want to add one more thing to think about.

One of the posts, above, speculated on the possibility that some of the established morphs may have started with emoryi or have emoryi incorporated in them.
Well, depending on who you talk to and which "line" you follow then candy cane comes to mind.
Emoryi was used in the early establishment of the candy cane by Kevin Enge. (Cornsnake Manual page 89)
So........hmmm

 

[CornCrazy]

Good point Jimmy. Kathy Love's site also mentions emoryi blood in her candy canes.

Here is the description from her site:

"CANDYCANE CORN SNAKES Bold red to red-orange blotches stand out against a light whitish background, in effect creating a highly contrasting alternating candycane pattern. My ongoing effort is to get consistently deep red blotches on the cleanest white as possible. These were created from several generations of selectively breeding Miami phase and creamsicles to get the proper effect. I produce the fewest of this strain each season, and sell-out on them among the first of my corn snake varieties. "

 

[Jimmy Johnson]

SO

How many candy canes have made it out there?
And how many of these have been bred with "pure" corns?
This does get interesting doesn't it?

of course it doesn't take that long to get more then 95% pure, which should be pure enough...lol

corn to emoryi
F1 = 50/50 corn/emoryi
each generation bred back to corn
F2 = 75/25
F3 = 87.5/12.5
F4 = 93.75/6.25
F5 = 96.875/3.125

 

[kathylove]

Yes, way back when there was no such thing as a named morph, few people seemed worried about crossing such closely related lines as corns and emorys. Some of the founding stock from Kevin had creamsicle blood, but all that seemed important was the very light background color. At this point, many of my current candycanes may have only a few drops of emory blood in them. I personally believe "A difference which makes no difference IS no difference". But for those who consider it important, as mentioned before, they should only buy from somebody who can fairly well guarantee that there is no "contamination". Rich seems to be one of the people to whom it was always important, so can probably provide more assurance of "purity" than most breeders can. Had I known back in the '80s that it would become an important issue, I probably would have kept the candycane lines separate from any creamsicles. Not because I think it is important, but because some of my customers may feel that way.

Now I have a new dilemma. I was never into crimsons, and the very first ones I got were from Frank Pinello. The female is one of the nicest I have ever seen. But Frank told me there is some emory rat somewhere in the bloodline of the pair. There is no way I am going to not breed this beautiful animal just because it has some invisible impurity somewhere in its background. This year will be the first time I put them on my list I have decided it will have to be the same deal as candycanes - most people will just want a beautiful crimson. For those who care more about a few drops of emory blood - they will just have to go to Rich or somebody who can absolutely, positively guarantee that their crimson is 100% corn. I think that those who are REALLY concerned with the issue will have to eschew casual buying at shows and classifieds, no matter how beautiful the offering is. They will have to restrict themselves to buying from breeders they feel offer safe, pure animals. Everything comes at a cost, and that may be the cost for purity.

 

[Clint Boyer]

I also have a pair of snakes from Frank that may also have some emoryi genes.
Mine are awesome! I had one clutch last year from the pair with only one survivor. It looks almost identical to the male of the pair. The female looks like a Crimson but I have refrained from calling her that just because Rich is known for the Crimson line. As hard as Rich has worked to keep pure lines, I don't want to infringe on that by calling these Crimsons when they most likely have emoryi genes.
Male:

Female:

 

[CornCrazy]

Thank you, Kathy

I appreciate you taking time to respond to this thread. I know this is a topic that causes lots of heated debates. I agree with your statement "A difference which makes no difference IS no difference."

I also believe in honesty, and I respect you because through it all, you still have it posted on your site that candy canes originally had some emoryi blood in them. You have the integrity that makes people able to purchase snakes from you...even if they want a pure corn.

Thanks again!

 

[kathylove]

Clint,

Hmmm...your point about the crimson name is well-taken, but if they basically ARE crimsons, then what will you (we) call them? (BTW - my female is almost identical to yours. Maybe they are siblings or cousins.) We could just breed the best ones back into Miamis and call them hypo Miamis, noting the small amount of emory blood. Although Don already has a hypo Miami line, it is not a coined name in the same way that crimson is.

My understanding is that Rich originally came up with the flourescent line and name to differentiate his lines from what he thought were impure lines of albino okeetee, so he probably wouldn't appreciate the crimson name being hijacked for use with hybrids.

So what do you (or anyone else) propose to call these "tainted" (but beautiful!) crimsons?

 

[Clint Boyer]

Kathy...

Well....

I'm not one to make hasty decisions, I haven't named mine anything yet (they are hypohybrids here). Frank and I had discussed this very subject after realizing what had taken place. I originally bought them when Frank posted a pic of the clutch freshly hatched. I bought those two I posted and a VERY orange amel. I thought the light coloring of the male and the high orange amel were very interesting.

At the time, there was also a discussion about Rootbeers or normals from Creamsicle projects. I suggested Creamsoda as a name for the hypo intergrades, it never stuck. Other then that, I haven't had to deal with the subject yet. I do have one lone hatchling that I put on the table listed as a hypo hybrid with 1/8 or 1/16 emoryi genes. Frank wasn't absolutely sure about the amount.

I'm going to stay away from the Crimson name basically because of the appearance of the one offspring I have to date.

This is the guy:

I am open to suggestions as I feel it would be benificial to all of us to come to a mutual agreement on the naming of these beautys!

 

[Jimmy Johnson]

This brings to mind

This brings to mind Stephen Roylance's cinnamon corns.
There were several people that were upset with Stephen for calling them cinnamon. They were adamant that there should be something in the name that suggests emoryi blood.
I don't see the problem.
Creamsicle doesn't have the word emoryi in it but everyone knows it denotes emoryi.
He could change it to cinnamon creams but there is no reason that cinnamon can't become as synonymous with emoryi as creamsicle.
As long as he lets anyone and everyone interested in the line know that there is emoryi it doesn't seem that detrimental to the trade...in my opinion.
You speculate on what to call a snake and it seems that no matter what you come up with, someone will be upset.
If Frank is the one that introduced the emoryi into the crimson line and you guys (Kathy and Clint) are working with these, maybe the three of you should just get together and come up with a name. Why not. At least it would differentiate between the two.
my 1/2 cents worth
Jimmy

 

[Rich Z]

Well, this thread does bring up some interesting concepts.

Can someone actually copyright the name of a corn snake cultivar? And even if so, how could it be proven that another animal being sold using the name was not of that line? I think this would get us right back into the Okeetee look versus locality argument.

Kathy, the comment about the Fluorescent Orange line is not exactly correct. This line originally was completely independent from any Okeetee blood. The original ancestry was from an animal I caught near Punta Gorda a long time ago.

The name change you are referring to was when I dropped the "Reverse Okeetee" name and started using "Amelanistic Okeetee" instead. I did this when I read your article (1996?) in Reptiles magazine indicating that the Reverse Okeetees actually originated from work you and Bill were doing with emoryi crosses. I just felt it was best that I clearly identify the animals I was working with as being of a different ancestry. Mine started out with an Okeetee (one that was supposedly from Okeetee Hunt Club), that I bred with an Amelanistic that came from my Blizzard line. I chose that line of Amelanism because of the extremely rich red coloration they had. I thought it would be very complimentary to the Okeetee line with the Amelanistic gene included.

Personally, although I tend to be pretty anal about the purity of my corn snakes, I believe eventually that it will be a moot point. I feel that I am on an island that is gradually getting smaller as the tide is rising around me. It appears that my animals are going out and once in other people's hands they are being bred helter skelter to anything and everything. Heck, in the photo gallery here on this site I just saw a photo of a Lavender corn being bred to a Baird's rat snake. Or at least the attempt.

So will "purity" become passe as more interesting and exciting projects arise that are from "impure" lines? I saw some really interesting animals on Mark Bell's tables at the Chicago show. I really liked them, but heck, they were Sinaloan x Corn Snake crosses.

Maybe I am just betting on a losing horse......

I mean, how many people really care that their pet dog is just a mutt? How many dogs in existence today are "pure"? What other animal lines in the pet trade are "pure"?

 

[Clint Boyer]

Interesting analogy Rich.

Most people do own mutt dogs and could care less about the breeding.

Then there are those involved in the AKC and adhere to strict breeding records and registration.

At some point, someone will have to create some form of club (ACC or ACS) American Cornsnake Club or American Cornsnake Society. NOTE: That was not intended to exclude any one, it's just that each country would have to start it's own and I happen to be American.
Unless it starts out internationally!

Until there is some governing body of some type, it's really just a free-for-all!

 

[gardenmum]

Very interesting point

you brought up, Rich, about 'pure breed' dogs. I say this because "what is a pure bred dog?" A pure breed dog is a certain conglomerate of other breeds bred together to make a specimen with specific traits for a specific purpose. Whether it be for pointing skills, flushing skills, going to ground skills, hurding skills, protecting skills, etc. And one of the 'purposes' for certain breeds is just for the sheer pleasure of the companion animal. So, 'pure bred' dogs are actually mutts bred within their own group to continue on their gene pool of specific traits and looks. And what created these breeds? People who were either curious about the mixture or looking for a specific look or type that they didn't have. You know, if we really wanted to be 'purists' in the dog world then we would have to own wolves, coyotes or dingos. So all this talk about interbreeding and hybridizing has made me take a deeper look at all domesticated 'pure bred' species.
I certainly wouldn't buy a 'pure bred' puppy from someone I questioned as having mixed in another breed but I have owned mutts and am sure I will in the future again.

To me anyone in snakes who has built a good reputation in their business and properly advertises their stock would certainly have me as a customer as I would trust their sincerity.

 

[kathylove]

Several people tried to start AKC type organizations for herps, but found it more complicated than they were willing to take on. Maybe if somebody starts one for just a single species, it might be doable. A retired herper with time on their hands needs to take on that job!

Rich, I couldn't remember the details of why you started the flourescent line, I just remember how much you have tried to keep everything purely corn, whatever it takes. But I think you are right. The tide will rise around you until there are just a few dedicated people to whom it really, really matters. I am happy that there are a few people that dedicated to nothing but pure corns, I am just not one of them. And I am also happy there are some people who will probably try to cross a cornsnake and a python, lol! Something for everyone. But I do believe in honestly representing anything you produce. And I don't believe that anyone can be responsible for what others do once it is out of your control. I think it might have been you at one time who posted that non-native corns and other snakes have been found right in the okeetee area, so that not even wildcaughts are a sure thing anymore. (probably forgot those details too!) It will be Buyers Beware! Doesn't matter if that is right or wrong, it's just the way it is, in my opinion.

On the other hand, I too have noted some of the beautiful crosses done by Mark B. and others - between even different genera! I have held back on acquiring those for several reasons. One is that I personally consider emory rats and corns pretty nearly the same (at least similar, anyway), whether taxonomists decide they are a subspecies, species, or whatever. The others (milks, kings, gophers, etc) are very different. Another reason is that I have to limit myself somehow - can't do everything. And another is that so many potential customers are against it that I don't think it would be a good business decision. I personally like to see the full range of what is possible, whether I happen to like it or not.

As far as purebred, registered cats and dogs go, new breeds are still being created by mixing certain breeds to come up with combinations of traits that are desirable to the new breed. I used to be into horses a long time ago, and I remember some stud books were kept open for awhile to certain breeds that were to make up the founding stock (I think it was paint horses, among others). After a time, only progeny from registered parents were allowed. So it was not always hundreds of years of purebred to purebred - some domestic breeds of animals are pretty recent. Lately I have heard of laberdoodles (lab and poodles). Don't know if they are registerable now, but I bet with enough time and effort, they will be.

 

[DocJess]

May I propose a name?

Kathy Love asked what the emoryi "tainted" crimsons could be called. Although I don't breed my corns (yet) I do appreciate the efforts of others, and would like to contribute in some small way.

The name "Scarlett" comes to my mind, as in Scarlett O'Hara. Could make it scarlet like the color, or Scarlett like the character. These crimsons are so beautiful and bold (remember Scarlett with her fair skin in that red dress??). The idea of being "tainted" also reminds me of the infamous Ms. O'Hara, shamelessly pursuing another woman's man. OK, so I'm getting a bit carried away here, what can I say, I'm an old movie buff!

Any other thoughts?

 

[Winter Steel 69]

Fiddle dee dee, I do declare! I have to agree.

 

[Clint Boyer]

Well..... if they were all red then I wouldn't have a problem with the Scarlet name. But I'd like to stick with a descriptive and mine seem to be variable between brown and red. I'm anxious to see how mine do this year.

I'm really interested too, Kathy, to see if you get some brown ones in your clutches.

 

[Serpwidgets]

It appears that my animals are going out and once in other people's hands they are being bred helter skelter to anything and everything.

Three quick points on this:

1- The lavender came from ProExotics who got it from VMS. I doubt this lavender was ever yours, although that is irrelevant at this point. I can understand being emotionally attached to traits you personally discovered, but the implication being made by saying "my animals ... in other people's hands" is a bit much.

2- I would call "helter skelter" an unfair characterisation. I see a great deal of value in what could be produced by Lav X Bairdi crosses, and also by Pewter X Bairdi crosses. I know that you and others won't like them, and that's fine by me. But I wouldn't ever say someone is breeding things helter skelter because they are doing "striped X anything" and I don't like the striped pattern.

3- The goal is to produce something that looks very different from cornsnakes. By the time anyone else gets their hands on any of the offspring, it would be a stupid idea to breed them back to corns.

Anyway...

Can someone actually copyright the name of a corn snake cultivar?

I'm not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. But I'm pretty sure copyright is right out. Trademark, maybe. If you can trademark a type of food, like a certain breed of lettuce or apple, then I would think it's possible.

But I'm not sure if you can do something like that with a product as homogenous and easy to duplicate as cornsnakes... especially in the eyes of a non-herper judge/jury, they'd all look the same to them.

But then, "Big Mac" is a trademark, even though anyone could make one. You could open a place and sell a burger made with two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, and onions on a sesame-seed bun. But if you tried to call it a Big Mac you'd have lawyers descending on you like nobody has ever seen.

 

[kathylove]

Bob Mailloux (sp?) actually did trademark the Sandfire name for his bearded dragons. He told me that he actually stopped people from selling them as Sandfires unless they could prove ancestry back to his lines. That was several years ago - don't know if he still pursues it anymore or not.

 

[Hurley]

Re: Sandfires

I don't know if he still does that or not, but I can tell you that at all the swaps I've been to in the last couple years everyone has "sandfires" or "insert favorite descriptor here that isn't truly a gene, but we don't have any, so there ya go x sandfire". People are throwing the name around to sell beardies and when I question them about the backgrounds on the beardies, I usually get non-answers or answers that make no sense. I've seen some that obviously don't have a shot of ever being orange, let alone flaming red like Bob's sandfires. It seems like they call them whatever buzz word they can think of that will sell them.

 

[kathylove]

He probably tried to keep up with it for awhile, but couldn't. I haven't talked to him for a long time, so don't know the situation. But back when they were quite valuable, I think he kept after imposters more than he may do now.