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cuddling corn snakes

Not all corns canablise is what i was getting at. In 20 years of keeping snake i have NEVER had 1 snake eat another in my collection.

I asked about the breeding because I only know breeders who keep their snakes seperate till breeding and was wondering if this is what you do. Because i class my snakes (and other animals) as pets i don't see why they should be solertary when they get on and live together in harmony.
 
cornman1979 said:
Not all corns canablise is what i was getting at. In 20 years of keeping snake i have NEVER had 1 snake eat another in my collection.

I asked about the breeding because I only know breeders who keep their snakes seperate till breeding and was wondering if this is what you do. Because i class my snakes (and other animals) as pets i don't see why they should be solertary when they get on and live together in harmony.
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The problem with those that state "it has NEVER happened to ME" is that it can. It is giving individuals new in the hobby the wrong idea about what is right and wrong...They are thinking..."Well, it's never happened to him in 20 years of experience...couldn't possibly happen to me!" Fact is, it CAN. I can say honestly that I did keep a pair of cornsnakes together...and a pair of ball pythons together as well (years ago). I know now the folly of this...and I don't risk my animals anymore. Not only is canabilisum an issue...STRESS is a factor. Also what needs put into consideration as well is that if one snake is ill and you keep two in the same viv...how are you going to know which is the sick reptile? How are you going to know who regurged? How are you going to know who has an abnormal bowel movement? Another item to take into account...What if your two same sex corns end up to be a sexed pair? The male breeds the female when she is too small to breed...she is at risk of dieing. Everyone makes mistakes...

They are solitary animals. The majority of reptiles are. Just because they TOLERATE eachother does not mean the ENJOY eachother.

ADDED:

Maybe the only reason why you know breeders that keep their animals seperated is because they realise the risks the animals would be put under and are educated enough in the hobby to not want to put their animals at that risk. Even if I wasn't a hobby breeder...I would keep them all seperate (grant it, I would have a hell'uva lot of tanks considering my large collection - I stick to racks for the "non-display" animals)...I've learned it's better to be safe then sorry (not that I've ever had an incident).
 
whoa-whoa-whoa...

20 years experience in keeping reptiles? if you're profile is correct...that would mean you would have been 5...I wouldn't say experience when you were a child counts. That is another argument though. I believe their was a thread on here somewhere discussing that months ago...

:)
 
blckkat said:
Not only is cannibilism an issue...STRESS is a factor. Also what needs put into consideration as well is that if one snake is ill and you keep two in the same viv...how are you going to know which is the sick reptile? How are you going to know who regurged? How are you going to know who has an abnormal bowel movement? Another item to take into account...What if your two same sex corns end up to be a sexed pair? The male breeds the female when she is too small to breed...she is at risk of dieing. Everyone makes mistakes...

They are solitary animals. The majority of reptiles are. Just because they TOLERATE eachother does not mean the ENJOY eachother.
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You hit it right on the head.
EXACTLY why they should be separated.
No other reason needs to be given.

Nearly every breeder I have ever seen houses HATCHLING corns together in groups. This is only for a short while...I even saw an account just this year...a guy had a 6 lot for sale...and edited the classified to a 5 lot because one of his HATCHLINGS ate another hatchling.
I will house hatchlings together...in small groups.
But as soon as they can be separated they WILL be.
Snakes are solitary animals. They WILL tolerate each other...just like they will tolerate being handled...but the do not have a sense of enjoyment...or companionship...or happiness. Keeping them together does not give them a "friend to play with". This is a human notion, snakes do NOT have friends.
All it does is cause stress for the animals involved.

I mean would you want to share a room with your little brother for the rest of your life? Or do you want your OWN room (much less house)?
 
I agree I didn't say it cant or won't happen, it hasent happened to me thats all.
Yeah i started with garters at age 5 and went on to own boas at age 10 and i started with corns at age 12. I have bread the snakes siince age 12 (the boa's) and the corns from age 15 (10 years breeding corns experiance).
If 20 years is not experience enough for breeding and keeping snakes then i dont know what the hell is. Yes i started at age 5 in keeping them, that means i have been handleing and feeding and doing complete clean out for 20 years. Is that not 20 years experience?????
 
You hit it right on the head.
EXACTLY why they should be separated.
No other reason needs to be given.

Nearly every breeder I have ever seen houses HATCHLING corns together in groups. This is only for a short while...I even saw an account just this year...a guy had a 6 lot for sale...and edited the classified to a 5 lot because one of his HATCHLINGS ate another hatchling.
I will house hatchlings together...in small groups.
But as soon as they can be separated they WILL be.
Snakes are solitary animals. They WILL tolerate each other...just like they will tolerate being handled...but the do not have a sense of enjoyment...or companionship...or happiness. Keeping them together does not give them a "friend to play with". This is a human notion, snakes do NOT have friends.
All it does is cause stress for the animals involved.

I mean would you want to share a room with your little brother for the rest of your life? Or do you want your OWN room (much less house)?
12-30-2004 08:22 PM
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I do share with my brother who is 23 and i have the room on a saturday and he has it on a friday.

As to the snakes they do tororate each other and they do tolorate handleing, I never mantioned a friend to play with or happines.
My snakes are happy as they eat when they need to, get 30 mins each (yes 30 mins each) handleing a day and fresh water on a daily basis. Just because your american doesn't mean you are right (look at the war on iraq? or was it for oil?) We all do things differantly and my way has worked for as long as i can remember so don't knock it.
 
cornman1979 said:
Yeah i started with garters at age 5 and went on to own boas at age 10 and i started with corns at age 12. I have bread the snakes siince age 12 (the boa's) and the corns from age 15 (10 years breeding corns experiance). If 20 years is not experience enough for breeding and keeping snakes then i dont know what the hell is. Yes i started at age 5 in keeping them, that means i have been handleing and feeding and doing complete clean out for 20 years. Is that not 20 years experience?????
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As I said...That is a debate that some people agree with, and others don't...I don't personally.

I had turtles when I was 11. I had a skink when I was 12. I do not consider myself with 9 years of experience with reptiles. I was unaware at the time what a wide world in herpetology there was. I was introduced in depth with reptiles when I turned 17, and I've been gathering more and more information ever since. At 17 I believe I was mature enough, and educated enough, to be able to "earn" experience.

A 5 year old (at least every 5 year old I've know) is incapable of taking care of a reptile properly and understanding why things need to be certain ways ON THEIR OWN. They can recite the entire Cornsnake Manual...but that does not mean they comprehend it. At a more mature age, where an individual is capable of being independent and taking the responsibilities of herp care...THEN you can consider it experience (though some older children aren't more mature then the a 2 year old...I've also learned men my age aren't either...).

When individuals read "20 years of experience" they ASSUME you were old enough and mature enough to take on the responsibilities, learn and grow from them. Certainly when I read statements such as that, I assume they are being honest that they actually have the years of experience...Not that when they were 6 they caught a baby toad and Dad helped them raise it until the next spring...

Regardless...Length of time an individual has been in herpetology does not matter. It is how they take care of the animals in their care...It is how they show others the right and wrong of caring for the animals...It is how they present themselves to others...All of this matters more then the "years" someone has experience in. I have seen a breeder who has been in the business a year present himself and his animals better then someone who has been in the business 15 years.

Anyway...Just my opinion...

:cheers:
 
cornman1979 said:
Just because your american doesn't mean you are right (look at the war on iraq? or was it for oil?)
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Those are fightin' words, my dear (even though I don't really care one way or another). I think you need to back down just a wee bit there. That was uncalled for and inappropriate.

Regardless...What was stated is FACT...if you can't accept that, I don't know what to tell you. :)

I seem to say regardless a lot, don't I? :shrugs:
 
http://amazingforums.com/forum2/SNAKEFORUM/forum.html
Have a look here blckkat and see what people think of my experience and advice!!!

As to the war maybe i was wrong to mention it but george w bush is still a wanker and so is the UK's PM.

Experience starts when you start dealing with an animal not 5 or 10 or 15 years after wards. I think if someone else had 20 years in dealling with snakes i don't expect them to tll me they have been keeping them for 25 and only have 20 years experiencs. Experience starts when you get the first snake, from day 1, from the day YOU bring it home. Just my opinion of course, but experience, good or bad starts from day 1 when you bring it home.
 
cornman1979 said:
I do share with my brother who is 23 and i have the room on a saturday and he has it on a friday.

As to the snakes they do tororate each other and they do tolorate handleing, I never mantioned a friend to play with or happines.
My snakes are happy as they eat when they need to, get 30 mins each (yes 30 mins each) handleing a day and fresh water on a daily basis. Just because your american doesn't mean you are right (look at the war on iraq? or was it for oil?) We all do things differantly and my way has worked for as long as i can remember so don't knock it.
Click to expand...

Oh...hmmm...what do I say.
If you took offense at my comments, they were in no way directed at you (or anyone, for that matter) and should not have been construed as being so. I apologize if you took personal offense to them.

The POINT of this conversation is that new keepers should not be told it is okay to keep their snakes in the same enclosure. It is absolutely IRRESPONSIBLE for ANYONE to tell them it is acceptable. I am glad you have never had a problem. Everyday you continue this behaviour is one more day you have beaten the odds. Why risk it? To be the "I have more experience since my mom shooed a garter snake out of the garden when I was in the womb" guy? Absolute irresponsiblity to your animals and to herpetology.

Now, as for the personal attack against me and my country of birth.
Why is it whenever I say something that is NOT pointed at ANYONE in particular and is based entirely in fact...someone takes personal offense and attacks me directly?
I would ask you to please refrain from making this personal.
YES...I am an American. I am tired of being persecuted on this forum for BEING an American...I don't feel it should even be brought up (I didn't...and neither should you) as it has absolutely NO relevance to the conversation other than to show you are bigoted and a racist. Bringing the Iraq war into the conversation shows you must change the subject because you have absolutely no factual or relevant information regarding the positive reasons for housing your snakes together. You don't like what I have to say...and have nothing positive to back up your position...so you attack me personally.
If you want to criticize the war...write to the President...it wasn't my decision to go in the first place. Better yet, write to your Prime Minister...I didn't see him BLINK before jumping right in with the US. So before you put every problem in the entire middle east squarely on my shoulders...take a look around...you, being from the UK are in the same boat. Whether you agree with the war or not. I have the greatest amount of respect and support for the men and women that are over there. They are doing their jobs...and doing it to the best of their ability...not their fault the US President is power hungry and the UK Prime Minister is a tool.
 
If you want to criticize the war...write to the President...it wasn't my decision to go in the first place. Better yet, write to your Prime Minister...I didn't see him BLINK before jumping right in with the US. So before you put every problem in the entire middle east squarely on my shoulders...take a look around...you, being from the UK are in the same boat. Whether you agree with the war or not. I have the greatest amount of respect and support for the men and women that are over there. They are doing their jobs...and doing it to the best of their ability...not their fault the US President is power hungry and the UK Prime Minister is a tool.
Click to expand...

I agre and am sorry if i offended you, it wasn't personal to you it was aimed at the president and everyone in the white house, now if you could provide an email address or phone number I could get in touch to save venting my anger and frustration on those not directly responsable!!

As to the 2 snakes in 1 viv i stand by my resoning If 2 snakes are in together and can "tolerate" each other they will be fine together from hatchling to death (natural, in my experience). " snakes can live happily together if they have enough hides (if people can afford an extra couple) and are fed seperatly.
 
cornman1979 said:
http://amazingforums.com/forum2/SNAKEFORUM/forum.html
Have a look here blckkat and see what people think of my experience and advice!!!

As to the war maybe i was wrong to mention it but george w bush is still a wanker and so is the UK's PM.

Experience starts when you start dealing with an animal not 5 or 10 or 15 years after wards. I think if someone else had 20 years in dealling with snakes i don't expect them to tll me they have been keeping them for 25 and only have 20 years experiencs. Experience starts when you get the first snake, from day 1, from the day YOU bring it home. Just my opinion of course, but experience, good or bad starts from day 1 when you bring it home.
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Sweetie...Opinions are like assholes...Everyone's got one! :) I am not impressed that you can pull a search up in another forum. I'm not even going to bother explaining why...I'm sure you can figure out that one for yourself. :)

It wasn't your statement about the war that bothered me (though I can't really say it even bothered me - I'd say I "noted" it)...It was the fact that you said "because you're american you think you are right." That's bull and obviously you couldn't think of anything factual to back up your OPINION.

In my opinion, EXPERIENCE starts when your are capable of INDEPENDENTLY taking care of and comprehending a given situation. Again, a 5 year old can not comprehend why the humidty needs to be at 50-60%, nor can they care for a cornsnake on their own. Like, I said my opinion. I don't consider you have "20 years experience." End of discussion. I won't talk about it anymore. :)
 
oh come on now.

Yah ok. You two SOOOOO need to break it up! Come on now! Seriously. I understand that having one snake eat the other happens, but I don’t see it as any reason to not house shakes of the same kind together. People baby their snakes WAY too much!
Honestly, the fact that they are constantly curled up together, in my mind, shows that they MAY like each other’s company! When ever I am at a pet store I always see snakes together. The baby corns are always together, the ball pythons are always together, the red tail boas are always together, the milk snakes are always together. Having two different snakes, especially if they are different sizes, is of course, stupid. But I think you are blowing this out of proportion!
So a snake may east another snake. People kill and hurt other people too, does this mean that all people need to be housed separately because they may kill another human.
Personally I wish someone would put a few non related adult corn snakes into a large vive together and see if thy curl up together.
There is new studies out now that show that, at least rattle snakes, do have social lives in some ways.
*Circe distantly crawls over my fingers to the screen and looks at it for a minute before crawling back into my sleeve) There has been new research out (true it’s about Rattle snakes, but still) that snakes are more social then we may think.

also, expirience from a young age does count!
 
blckkat, It was my parent choice to let me have a snake at that age on the understanding THAT I TOOK SOLE RESPONSABILATY FOR IT EXCEPT FOR VET'S BILLS, which i did. Snakes do eat each other but on a minoraty scale (in captivaty, and when mis matched) compared to the amount of murder commited in humans.

blckkat do you think humans should be housed independtly? What Razorblade Jinx says is true, people murder each other and go to war against each other, so should we all live solatary life, no women for men, no men for women no women for women or men for men?
 
cornman1979 said:
I agre and am sorry if i offended you, it wasn't personal to you it was aimed at the president and everyone in the white house, now if you could provide an email address or phone number I could get in touch to save venting my anger and frustration on those not directly responsable!!

As to the 2 snakes in 1 viv i stand by my resoning If 2 snakes are in together and can "tolerate" each other they will be fine together from hatchling to death (natural, in my experience). " snakes can live happily together if they have enough hides (if people can afford an extra couple) and are fed seperatly.
Click to expand...

I wasn't offended by what you said about my president...you quoted me DIRECTLY and said I think I know everything because I am American.
You are a bigot. End of story.

And all I am saying all it takes is a strong feeding response and a little leftover mouse smell and even snakes fed separately will quickly go from 2 to 1

Razorblade Jinx said:
I understand that having one snake eat the other happens, but I don’t see it as any reason to not house shakes of the same kind together. People baby their snakes WAY too much!
Honestly, the fact that they are constantly curled up together, in my mind, shows that they MAY like each other’s company! When ever I am at a pet store I always see snakes together. The baby corns are always together, the ball pythons are always together, the red tail boas are always together, the milk snakes are always together. Having two different snakes, especially if they are different sizes, is of course, stupid. But I think you are blowing this out of proportion!
So a snake may east another snake. People kill and hurt other people too, does this mean that all people need to be housed separately because they may kill another human.
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Razorblade--Show me the petstore that keeps their Milksnakes in one tank...and I bet they have more eaten than sold.

Yes..pet stores keep animals together to conserve space and provide more MERCHANDISE. That is all these animals are to them. They also get a writeoff for any animals that die. Housing snakes together is just NOT a good idea when you have the option to provide them with SEPERATE enclosure...if you don't...you shouldn't get more snakes. It sounds like you could care less if one of your snakes eats another one of your snakes...sounds like a waste of time and money if you ask me. People don't have a choice but to try to live together...the snakes have NO choice when you force together in one enclosure.

Rattlesnakes are among the very youngest and highest evolved of all snake species. They can be a social animal...at times. Cornsnakes have NEVER been shown to be a social animal as far as I have ever seen, read, or heard. If you can show me some documentation to the contrary, it would be greatly appreciated.
 
By the way i've been using that forum since it started earlier this year. Its adminastrator is Steve who runs the corn snake site and my name on their is JOHN, with my signature at the bottom of every post. Check it out for yourself if you don't believe me, i'm sure vick m, who is also a member of this forum will tell you who i am!!!!
 
cornman1979 said:
blckkat, It was my parent choice to let me have a snake at that age on the understanding THAT I TOOK SOLE RESPONSABILATY FOR IT EXCEPT FOR VET'S BILLS, which i did. Snakes do eat each other but on a minoraty scale (in captivaty, and when mis matched) compared to the amount of murder commited in humans.

blckkat do you think humans should be housed independtly? What Razorblade Jinx says is true, people murder each other and go to war against each other, so should we all live solatary life, no women for men, no men for women no women for women or men for men?
Click to expand...

Your argument makes absolutely NO logical or factual sense. You are comparing proverbial apples to oranges.

People are NOT captive pet reptiles in any way shape or form and our habits should not be compared to theirs for justifiction of your fool notions.

People RARELY kill other people for FOOD. Humans kill for emotional reasons. Snakes do not have the capacity for emotion. Snakes kill solely for food. A snake in captivity WILL eat another snake for a variety of reasons...this has been pointed out to you and backed up by factual accounts. If you choose to ignore it...that is your perogative, but please do not talk new keepers into doing the same...their experience may not be as vast as yours and they may end up being one of the stories that back up my position.
 
You are the bigot, it's your way or no way am i wrong?
Just because i have SUCSESFULLY housed snake TOGETHER for over 12 years with no canablism you think you know my experiences to the contary?
I go off experience alone, which is what has stud me in good stead when other people come to me for advice (which if you go to the forum in a previous post i get asked for by name).
 
cornman1979 said:
By the way i've been using that forum since it started earlier this year. Its adminastrator is Steve who runs the corn snake site and my name on their is JOHN, with my signature at the bottom of every post. Check it out for yourself if you don't believe me, i'm sure vick m, who is also a member of this forum will tell you who i am!!!!
Click to expand...

Your "STATUS" at another forum is of no consequence to my opinion (or, I would have to assume, Blckkats) or to the discussion at hand. How other people, that I do NOT know, and have no reference for, perceive you amounts to a hill of beans.

I swear...I am elvis...and these other people you don't know can verify that.

What a total load.
 
why does it not make logical or factual sence? People in the UK and quite a number from the us who comes to the above forum house their snakes together with no problems what so ever. Fact tell me the percentace of corn snakes that eat each other? Whilst you at it tell me how many people are murderes on a dailly basis? then tell which percentige is more.
 
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