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Dead snake, lots of questions

wildernessey

Feelin' Snakey
My son's corn died probably some time this morning. Unfortunately we didn't realize it until the smell as she was in her warm hide after feeding.

Over the past three to four feedings she's been regurging her mice. I feed frozen, and has never been a problem. I doubt that has anything to do with it....but, I'm trying to give all the info I can.
I had just recently moved her up to hoppers but the regurging had started on the last feeding of fuzzies (or whatever size it was before this one, you get the idea).
I feed every week to week and a half depending on number of mice eaten and activity level (and in her case whether she'd kept her previous meal down).
The first hopper went down great.
The next feeding it came up.
The next it didn't.
So we moved on to two hoppers. Both came up. I waited but still fed her two on the next feeding. I figured if she didn't want the second she wouldn't eat it. She ate both, but regurged them both.
By now I was starting to worry, as I figured she couldn't have been getting enough nurishment.
I knew I should have come back on here sooner and seen if anyone could've helped me then, but now it's too late.
Most recent feeding was Tuesday. Two hoppers. Went down great, seemed to be staying down great. Normally if she's gonna bring em back up the second day is the time in which she does it.
No regurge.....death instead.
I think she hemmoraged because there were a few dropplets of blood in her hide, and I could see a red area on her belly. It almost appeared she may have suffocated.
I did everything by the book. I fed in a separate container. Did not bother her during or after feeding. Provided accurate heated/non-heated areas in her tank, proper bedding, etc. etc.
So my question is: what could've caused this? If this was some kind of congenital deformity that killed her what can I look for in the next snake to prevent buying one that may have a problem?

What should I watch for as far as regurging that would give me earlier warning signs? How long/ how often is too much regurging?
Is there anything I could've done to prevent this?
I thought she was old enough and big enough to handle the hoppers, but could I have been over-feeding?

Thank you each and every person in advance for your responses. I haven't been on here in quite a while, but everyone is always so helpful and kind.
Karen
PS if you need any additional info or have any questions please ask.
 
I am so sorry for you and your son....This has been a bad two weeks for corns dying. I believe this is the third of fourth in two weeks.

Just a few questions:

1. How old and how big was the snake?

2. After the regurges, how long did you wait before trying to feed her again?
 
Thanks for your quick reply!
She was 9 months old or so and approximately 2 1/2 feet long as of her most recent shed which was about a month or more ago.
She was a solid 1 1/4 in diameter (possibly wider) at her widest point.

I usually waited a little longer than usual to feed after a regurge. Somewhere generally closer to a week and half sometimes a little longer, at the very least 7-9 days.
 
wow karen im too very sorry to hear of your loss.
there really has been one too many deaths the past couple of weeks, it breaks my heart to read about them every time i knw how hard it is to lose one.
sorry i cannot be much help here and my questions would be the same as howiet's.
:(
 
If she was 2 1/2 feet long, I am pretty sure she was older than 9 months old.

As far as her regurges...usually the time frame to wait after a regurge is 10 days. Also, with the next feeding, after a regurge, you need to feed her a much smaller prey..

IE. One of my corns regurged a whole pinky and for the next three feedings, I fed her pinky heads....Just so she would not regurge again..I know if there are multiple regurges in a row...that is a really bad sign.
 
IMO, one regurgitation is bad, 2 is deadly. I learned the hard way, just like you.

3 years ago I had a hatchling die after only 2 regurgitations. Adults or subadults can handle it better but it's still not good.

With my hatchling she regurged pinky #1. I waited the recommended 10 days, I fed her pinky #2, she digested it fine, fed pinky #3 a week later, she regurged it and refused meals from then on, dying 2 weeks later.

Regurgitation is pretty much the only thing I really fear when keeping snakes. It hits them hard and if you don't remedy the situation the first time it will most likely continue to happen and eventually lead to death.
 
howiet4702 said:
If she was 2 1/2 feet long, I am pretty sure she was older than 9 months old.

As far as her regurges...usually the time frame to wait after a regurge is 10 days. Also, with the next feeding, after a regurge, you need to feed her a much smaller prey..

IE. One of my corns regurged a whole pinky and for the next three feedings, I fed her pinky heads....Just so she would not regurge again..I know if there are multiple regurges in a row...that is a really bad sign.

Not true. Spirit's corn is only like 5 months old and it's already 25-26". We has this discussion last night. I've got a pair of '03 that are around 28", it just depends on a lot of factors.

About the regurge. Could have been a lot of things. Usually you should wait 10-14 days, I would have waited 14 seeing as your snake wasn't a hatchling it could have handled it better. They need time to have their stomach acids/bacteria get back to a normal level. Whomever said you should have gone down is size is correct too. You should have dropped from a fuzzy/hopper to a pinkie after the first regurge, and I would have tried to get her to a vet after the 2nd.

If she did fine for 9 months I doubt it was a genetic problem. Sometime things just happen and dont really make any sense.

Sorry for your loss. You could always bring her to the vet and get a necropsy done if you wanted to find out the reason why she died.
 
Joejr14 said:
Not true. Spirit's corn is only like 5 months old and it's already 25-26". We has this discussion last night. I've got a pair of '03 that are around 28", it just depends on a lot of factors.

SORRY....Never seen a corn that big at only 9 months old....
 
Wow... that's a lot of regurgitations. :(

Joe's right, regarding my snake. My boy broke through his egg around the last week of Aug '04 and is right now 25", and has been successfully eating 1 fuzzy every 7 days. When I brought him home on Sept 30th, he was 17-18".

I actually just got home from the pet store where I bought him from, and today I brought him with me (Max's big adventure!) to say hi to the people who work there. The guy who sold him to me is very well educated on snakes (mostly wild and venomous but also had bred many species of his own) and he couldn't believe how fast my snake has grown on the 1 fuzzy per week. Some just grow faster than others, I guess. I told him I think he's stopped growing in length for the time being and is now growing in girth and he laughed and said "Don't bet on it". I may have a monster on my hands! :laugh:

But I digress. My snake is 25" and there's NO WAY he could hold down 2 hoppers, let alone 1. It could be possible that the meal was just too large. Best to stick with 1.

As for your snake, I am SO SORRY to hear of this happening. I think Joe said pretty much everything I would have said, so I will leave it at that.

I'm very glad you posted here though because if this happens again, next time you'll know to feed a smaller meal at the following couple feedings, and hopefully prevent it from happening again. More than likely the regurges were caused by some sort of internal parasite (I'm completely guessing on that one), but at least now you what to do if it happens again. Seek advice immediately, wait 10 days to feed again, and offer a smaller size meal.
 
Wow! You guys are fantastic!
I remember reading way long ago that you should wait at least 10 days. That may have been mistake number 1.
As for which size she was eating....I "think" they were hoppers. I have a snow corn that is HUGE (like over 3 feet at about 1 Year old) and she's eating hoppers if not small mice....so please don't quote me on exactly which size mouse she had ( I only remember that it was a size down from my snake, the mouse place I order from keeps that info on record for me...how sad I don't know, but I just can't recall right now).
I used the method of no more than 1 1/2 times the size of the widest point on their body to determine the feeder size. The mouse was no bigger than her widest portion that was for sure.

So, based on everyone's thoughts it looks like I screwed up by feeding her too soon after regurge and obviously a much too large mouse after regurge.
God! I hate to say I had to live and learn by killing my son's snake. That makes me feel like DIRT! ugh! :cry:
What's even worse is how long she held out and how many times she regurged. I remember my panic at the third time, because I knew for sure that something was wrong.
And as for a vet, there aren't any that I'm aware of anywhere near me that would see, much less know how to treat a snake. But it may be time to do a more thorough investigation on that or ask around.

I just can't express how awful I feel for killing this snake. Next time I'll come straight here to ask questions instead of feeling like I can "handle the situation myself", that was the biggest, most foolish mistake.

Thank you all once again for offering up your suggestions and ideas, and expressing your sympathy. It makes it much harder now to know that it's a good possibility it was my fault. :cry: :cry:
 
Please don't be so hard on yourself. We've all done things that seemed right at the time but then later learned it was a mistake, often too late to correct our error. Often, the lessons in life are learned the hard way. The important thing is that we DO learn from our mistakes.

I am so sorry about the death of your son's snake. Regurgitation is something we all dread, and sometimes, even with the 10-14 days between meals and the smaller size prey item, a snake will not make it. And size and age really doesn't matter. I've had adult snakes regurg and eventually die...it just takes longer than with younger snakes.
 
The death of this snake was NOT your fault. From the sounds of your first post, you did everything you knew how to do, and now that it's happened the first thing you did was come here and try to figure out what DID happen, so you know how to react incase it happens again.

This wasn't caused by neglect, and you certainly did what you thought was best for the snake at the time. The cause of death may have nothing to do with you feeding too much food, or feeding too soon. Like i said before it could be that the snake had some sort of internal parasite and it wouldn't have mattered what you did, the regurge would have kept happening anyway.

There's no way to no what the actual cause of death was, so like Susan said, please don't be so hard on yourself. Sometimes there are no answers.
 
Jeez, I'll say it again! You guys are really fantastic. Thanks for all your warm wishes, sympathy and encouragement.
My son is handling it soooooo well!! Much better than me.
In fact, god help me, we went and got him a snow corn. Now he has a snake exactly like mom's. he he he He'd seen it a few weeks ago at a pet store we frequent. I saw the longing in his eyes then, but he never said anything except "hey! This one looks just like yours, mom!" But I could tell it was love at first sight. I'm not ready to commit to multiple snakes yet. We each have one, and that's enough....for now.
I felt like it was too soon, but kids grieve differently I think. His last snake was red, so unlike my pale pink one, and she was so friendly. He got her out at the very least every other day (except after feedings of course).
This new snake is so small. I mean REALLY small. I'm so not used to seeing a tiny snake again.
He was so happy to get her and so thrilled to hold her.
My son is nine and has done so well with snakes. I'm really amazed, but I had to remind him that getting another one was not going to replace StarFire (that's what he'd named the last one).
But I must say it's nice to not have to stare into an empty cage. (and don't worry, it's been sanitized and thoroughly cleaned)

And OH!!! I had forgotten how tiny pinkie mice are!!!! LOL!

I feel much better about the whole thing today. And I needed to hear that it was OK and you all did that. Thank you so much! It still hurts, but I'm going to forgive myself, and move on.
Now I know so much more, and in some ways worry more, but feel more prepared.
I think I'll stick around on here more after this. And not because of the tragedy, but because of the support. I feel the need to return the kidness I've received!!
Thank you all once again!
Karen
 
What a sweet thing to say! There some very supportive people here and others who are ALWAYS willing to help if you have a problem. Glad you're going to stick around!

Welcome, and NEVER fear asking the seemingly dumb questions. :laugh: You should post a pic of the new snake if you have one!
 
Ok, it's been a loooooooong time since I've done photos so bear with me please.

The first photo is my son's new snake which he's named Raven. You can see that she is VERY small even in his small hands (he's nine). I'm a little concerned that she was given up too young. But it could be that it's just been so long since I've had a baby snake that I'm not remembering the size correctly.
Dsc00120.jpg



The second photo is my snow corn, Dragon. She's in a 20 gallon long reptile tank. She's my baby and is officially a year old now. I got her just prior to Christmas '03.
Dsc00128.jpg
 
You just don't remember how small they are. ;)

I have 2 hatchlings that are smaller than that and they are about 2.5 months old, though to be fair, they hatched tiny and I've only been feeding them once a week (most people feed their babies twice a week).

Good luck with the new snake.
 
Im not tring to sound frantic :crazy02: But if you are using the same viv make sure you properly clean it just in case. You can never be to safe. :wavey: Oh and those are nice looking snakes you have there. They are so darn cute when they are that small.
Jaimee
 
Cute as bugs!! You just don't remember how small they were. I was looking at my hatchlings and I suddenly realized that my amel was as small as they were when I got her a little over a year ago. Now she's 3.5 ft. long!
Ty: She said that she had cleaned and discenfected the tank, so rest easy :)
 
Yup, tank was THOROUGHLY disinfected. In fact, that was the very first thing I did after removing the dead one. Everything got cleaned from top to bottom, new, freshly baked reptibark was set aside in anticipation of a new addition. So, by the time we got the little one everything was sparkling clean, new and ready to go.

Is it normal for snakes with RI's to recover on their own? And at this age/size? How long would that take? She's out under the heat, which I'm sure is the best thing for her right now.
I'm eagerly awaiting a shed so I can see if the noise goes away. I'm starting to have a bad feeling it's not that though.....
 
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