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Dead vs. Live Feeders Question
- Thread starter Bharmonika
- Start date
RobbiesCornField
Bring it on.
Nope, the CO2 has no bad effect on the snake, and it's a humane death for the mouse.
Win-win
I'm not really sure how "humane" gassing the mice is... I personally haven't done it, but I do know someone who used to gas all of his. He's seen them scurry about like they're choking, and can't breathe. It sounded like a slow suffocation. Sorry, but the gas tanks at Auschwitz weren't humane, and I don't think gassing mice is either. A quick snap of the neck, in my opinion, is the most humane.
starsevol
Cohabbing is cruelty...
I think it depends on how its done. If the gas is introduced slowly, the mice go to sleep before they start to sufficate and I've heard it's pretty peaceful.
I've never done it (obviously, LOL).
Snapping the neck is very quick and humane and the poor lil' things don't know what hit 'em, I'm sure!
I've never done it (obviously, LOL).
Snapping the neck is very quick and humane and the poor lil' things don't know what hit 'em, I'm sure!
Nanci
Alien Lover
Carbon dioxide (Acceptable)
Carbon dioxide has a rapid depressant, analgesic and anesthetic effect. Carbon dioxide is nonflammable, nonexplosive, and poses minimal hazard to personnel when used with properly designed equipment. Because CO2 is heavier than air, incomplete filling of a chamber may permit animals to climb or raise their heads above the higher concentrations and avoid exposure. Compressed CO2 gas in cylinders is the only recommended source of carbon dioxide because the inflow to the chamber can be regulated precisely. Carbon dioxide generated by other methods such as from dry ice, fire extinguishers, or chemical means (i.e. antacids) is unacceptable. During euthanasia, species should be separated and chambers should not be overcrowded. With an animal in the chamber, an optimal flow rate should displace at least 20% of the chamber volume per minute. Loss of consciousness may be induced more rapidly by exposing animals to a CO2 concentration of 70% or more by prefilling the chamber. Gas flow should be maintained for at least 1 minute after apparent clinical death. It is important to verify that an animal is dead when removing it from the chamber.
Source: http://www.siu.edu/~iacuc/ROD_EUTH.HTML#IH
Carbon dioxide has a rapid depressant, analgesic and anesthetic effect. Carbon dioxide is nonflammable, nonexplosive, and poses minimal hazard to personnel when used with properly designed equipment. Because CO2 is heavier than air, incomplete filling of a chamber may permit animals to climb or raise their heads above the higher concentrations and avoid exposure. Compressed CO2 gas in cylinders is the only recommended source of carbon dioxide because the inflow to the chamber can be regulated precisely. Carbon dioxide generated by other methods such as from dry ice, fire extinguishers, or chemical means (i.e. antacids) is unacceptable. During euthanasia, species should be separated and chambers should not be overcrowded. With an animal in the chamber, an optimal flow rate should displace at least 20% of the chamber volume per minute. Loss of consciousness may be induced more rapidly by exposing animals to a CO2 concentration of 70% or more by prefilling the chamber. Gas flow should be maintained for at least 1 minute after apparent clinical death. It is important to verify that an animal is dead when removing it from the chamber.
Source: http://www.siu.edu/~iacuc/ROD_EUTH.HTML#IH
danny819
New member
I used to gas the mice but would notice them jumping up for air because co2 is heavier they could get air up top till the chamber filled. I started priming it for 20-30 secs before I put them in to stop that but they still seemed to panic so i switched to the spinal dislocation method unless I have to kill a quantity ( I sometimes sell extras to friends/local stores) then i gas them and freeze them. I find the co2 seems more humane with larger prey like xxl rats,g-pigs (i dont feed them anymore), rabbits and piglets since they seem to slowly go to sleep without panic or any sort of nervousness.
I try to be as humane as possible since I usually raise the prey myself or at least keep it for a few weeks to make sure it is in good health and has a good diet before feeding to any of my snakes. In the end I am a snake guy and whats best for them will always trump whats best for the prey.
I try to be as humane as possible since I usually raise the prey myself or at least keep it for a few weeks to make sure it is in good health and has a good diet before feeding to any of my snakes. In the end I am a snake guy and whats best for them will always trump whats best for the prey.
Bharmonika
Corn Crazy!!!
I have continued feeding my snake live because for the past two years there has been no injuries,because there has been no injuries, there has been no reason to change the way I feed my snake. In fact, the possibility of injury didn't occur to me until I asked the question.This is my first and only snake and since I have been on this forum, I have learned a lot and hope to continue. If I wasn't interested in doing what is best for my snake then I wouldn't have posed the question to begin with. Snakes eat live prey, that is what they were created for so I did not think that it is strange or inhumane to continue with that.
[tamster] I do not keep live mice. I stop by the reptile store once a week and pick up a mouse so I don't deal with the smell at all.
Thank you for all of your replies. You have given me many things to consider and think about.
diamondlil
Mice! They taste so nice!
Hey! I resemble that remark!
Apart from the possibility of injury to the snake, there's also the question of being able to handle watching live feedings. I have successfully converted my 3 live-only corns through stunned to f/k to f/t. Hearing the mice squeaking and watching them die was the worst thing for me, even though I bred them myself and knew they'd had 'happy' lives up until they met the snake.
Bharmonika
Corn Crazy!!!
Yes, this is still hard for me so I put them both in a rubbermaid and walk away. Yes, yet another argument for feeding them mice that have already been killed.
diamondlil
Mice! They taste so nice!
But if you don't watch, whatever slim chance of intervening if the snake gets bitten is gone.
I'm reminded of this thread: http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75746
You might want to give it a good read. Hopefully it will open your eyes to the danger you're putting your snake in everytime you feed it live and then walk away to ease your conscience. Tell me... how would your conscience feel if you came back to the bin to find the snake dead and the mouse alive? Or the mouse dead but your snake injured badly?
I know that sounds harsh, but there are far better options for your snake. When I got my first snake my fiance had to feed her because I couldn't even stand to look at the dead mouse. Now (that was back in June) I have no problems at all, looking, touching, or smelling the dead mouse. And I know my snakes are safe.
You might want to give it a good read. Hopefully it will open your eyes to the danger you're putting your snake in everytime you feed it live and then walk away to ease your conscience. Tell me... how would your conscience feel if you came back to the bin to find the snake dead and the mouse alive? Or the mouse dead but your snake injured badly?
I know that sounds harsh, but there are far better options for your snake. When I got my first snake my fiance had to feed her because I couldn't even stand to look at the dead mouse. Now (that was back in June) I have no problems at all, looking, touching, or smelling the dead mouse. And I know my snakes are safe.
Bharmonika
Corn Crazy!!!
I posted this topic yesterday and while this may be an old topic for most of you, it is not for me. I have not once argued with anyone's logic or refuted what anyone has had to say, in fact, I think my last sentence speaks for itself. It would be nice to have responses that weren't so argumentative and condescending from some of you. I am still learning and I would prefer not to be yelled at. You don't have to be harsh or mean to get your point across, simply stated facts will do. I appreciate the majority of you who have responded with your facts, thoughts, and opinions in a polite manner, your help is greatly appreciated.
[Emwright] thank you for the link it was very informative. For the record, I feel bad everytime I feed my snake whether the mouse is dead or alive. The act of walking away in no way eases my conscience.
You shouldn't feel bad... what is there to feel bad over? It's the way of life. Do you feel bad when you eat a steak? Or scramble eggs?
To be honest... I really think that what is best for your snake should come first. It is just as easy to buy a frozen mouse once a week, as it is to buy a live one. :shrugs: Perhaps I was too harsh, perhaps I should have been nicer, but when you see the same thing over and over again, it just gets frustrating.
For people to say 'I care about my pets', but not do everything within their power to protect them just doesn't make sense to me. I've always had a habit of seeing my pets as my 'babies' and I treat them with as much care and consideration as I would my own offspring. If someone told me that I was doing something to possibly harm them I would stop immediately, even if it meant extra work for myself. Knowing that they are as happy and safe as possible is worth it.
I only keep about a two-four week supply of mice (at least for now) in my freezer. They stay in the plastic bag inside a paper bag labeled 'Mice' so nobody else in the house gets a nasty surprise. It's not so bad once you tell yourself 'it must be done, I'm doing it, and that's all there is to it'.
To be honest... I really think that what is best for your snake should come first. It is just as easy to buy a frozen mouse once a week, as it is to buy a live one. :shrugs: Perhaps I was too harsh, perhaps I should have been nicer, but when you see the same thing over and over again, it just gets frustrating.
For people to say 'I care about my pets', but not do everything within their power to protect them just doesn't make sense to me. I've always had a habit of seeing my pets as my 'babies' and I treat them with as much care and consideration as I would my own offspring. If someone told me that I was doing something to possibly harm them I would stop immediately, even if it meant extra work for myself. Knowing that they are as happy and safe as possible is worth it.
I only keep about a two-four week supply of mice (at least for now) in my freezer. They stay in the plastic bag inside a paper bag labeled 'Mice' so nobody else in the house gets a nasty surprise. It's not so bad once you tell yourself 'it must be done, I'm doing it, and that's all there is to it'.
Bharmonika
Corn Crazy!!!
No, but I honestly don't think that I could eat steak if I saw the cow or petted it before it was slaughtered. I would not do well on an animal farm LOL!
I understand your frustration, but please remember that for me, this issue was something that I had never even thought to consider. I am not sure what made me even ask the question, but I a certainly glad that I did.
Yes, and knowledge IS power. We may think that we are doing everything in our power to protect our animals, but not realize that we are harming them. One of the ways that I gain that knowledge is by asking questions.:idea:
I don't go hunting or anything like that, I have no need to hunt for survival. But I do eat meat products. Everytime you drive by a field of cows there's a great possibility that most if not all those cows will be slaughtered and end up on your table. But, I guess I have a different view, not only did I live in a part of the country where beef farms were many, I've also worked in a processing plant (I dealt with the chicken after it was dead). My grandma grows her own meat cows and has one slaughtered every year.
I often tell people how great snakes are as pets, how easy they are to care for, how they don't demand a lot of your time (depending on the numbers you keep). But the most important thing to remember is that snakes eat rodents, whole, uncooked rodents. They don't have "snake kibble" at Walmart, so if you can't handle seeing your pet consume another creature perhaps snakes aren't right for you (the individual whoever they may be).
Knowledge is only power if you use it. Just because you know stepping onto a busy freeway can get you killed doesn't mean if you actually do it you'll be safe. It's the same thing with your pets. I don't feed live just like I don't let my dogs outside unsupervised. I know if my dogs are outside alone any number of bad things might happen to them, just like I know that feeding my snake a live mouse could result in my snake getting hurt.
This is where I'm getting confused maybe...
Thanks. I totally didn't think about the damage to the snake. I guess because he is so quick, I have only seen a mice be able to bite a couple of times and he squeezed it so fast that it lasted only about 3 seconds before the mouse was unable to move. I will try a F/T kill next time to see how he does. danny819, I am totally with you on the dead rats in front of the ice cream LOL!!! Thanks!
Then you said:
So first you tell us that you've seen the mouse biting at your snake and then you state that because there are no injuries YET you aren't going to change anything. Does it really make sense to allow even the slightest possibility that your snake could get seriously injured? I don't think so. Does it hurt you to make changes that eliminate that possibilty? It shouldn't.
Now that you have the knowledge that what you're doing could be harmful, I think it'd be wise to USE that knowledge instead of standing by and continuing against it reguardless. :shrugs:
This I think is the worst part for me. You don't like the idea of watching the snake, or listening to the mouse die so you walk away. For someone that squimish it would be so much easier to get a F/T mouse. Pull the mouse out a bit before feeding time, once it's thawed put it in hot (as hot as you can get it) tap water for five minutes. Once the mouse is thawed you can pat it dry then give it to the snake and walk away knowing that you won't come back to your snake being injured.
How hard is that? What is the difference? I really just don't understand your reasoning...
ghosthousecorns
Well-known member
I think at this point enough of us have pointed it out. If Harmonica's snakes have been unhurt so far and the advice we give is taken and followed from now on, I would say leson learned, no harm, no foul, no need to beat a dead horse. It's not like this is a person saying "I'm going to keep feeding live and I just think it's cool to watch my snake kill a mouse" more a case of someone that didn't really think it through.
One nice thing about feeding frozen BTW, is you can buy in bulk and it saves money!
One nice thing about feeding frozen BTW, is you can buy in bulk and it saves money!
sober_serpents
New member
i feed all my snakes (over 100 snakes at this time) frozen/thawed. not only are they cheaper, but better for the health of the snake. i rescued a cornsnake back in 2005 whos neck was all bitten up and chewed up by a live mouse. the petshop i got him from ONLY fed live... and he was a breeze switching to f/t. personally.... i have a snake who is about 17 years old.... had f/t until she just stopped eating one day.... we tried live mice and thats all she would take for a while... and every time i put my hand in her tank she bit. around 2006 i switched her back to f/t and shes not as nippy as she used to be. I love all my critters and i have seen too many snakes die from eating live mice... they will literally eat the snake alive!!! i can not go living life all hunky dorey if i knew i had killed my own snake... a part of my family... so, thats why i use f/t...
Bharmonika
Corn Crazy!!!
Yeah, I think there is a misunderstanding here. I didn't say that WOULD continue, I said that I HAVE continued. In other words up until YESTERDAY when I posted this thread I had seen no reason to change my feeding methods. Ofcourse, since reading all of your replies there definitely seem to be more alternatives to the way that I have been doing it. My apologies for not being clear, but I was speaking in the past prior to yesterday rather than the future. I haven't even had the chance to feed my snake since this thread was started (LOL)! He gets fed on Fridays
Okay, that's where the confusion was at.
I do hope you try F/T again.... Or at the very least stun the mouse before putting it in. I'm not sure how you 'stun' the mouse... the only way I heard was to take it by the tail and whack its head against a table or wall, which seemed REALLY inhumane to me. I'm sure some of the other more experienced folks here know the best way to stun.
I do hope you try F/T again.... Or at the very least stun the mouse before putting it in. I'm not sure how you 'stun' the mouse... the only way I heard was to take it by the tail and whack its head against a table or wall, which seemed REALLY inhumane to me. I'm sure some of the other more experienced folks here know the best way to stun.