Feeding live to F/T babies ??

[alpine]

Alpine, in my opinion you started this thread just to argue your point. Sadly, its been done a million times on this forum and many other forums. Search button again is a nifty lil feature that could of avoided this. You said it yourself, You KNEW this was going to start a flame war. So instead of doing a tiny bit of research yourself you started the thread knowing full well what kind of reaction you would get... nuff said!

The whole reason I join forums is to expand my knowledge of a subject. To do this, I search threads or post my own if I have questions that aren't answered. When people join forums they are looking to get a general understanding of the subject from a community of people who partake in what I'm looking for. When I posted this thread, I had a serious question and was looking for an answer. Instead of people coming in and saying "I don't agree, but that's also another way to do it", I was confronted with "it's wrong, you're a murderer, karma goes a long way." What kind of example is this supposed to set if I was a new member? I'd sign off and never come back to this forum if I wasn't used to this crap.

From my understanding in the 20+ forums I've been a part of if you post something and people don't agree with it, you're just going to get slammed by a group of people who agree with the same thing and are going to make you feel like until you agree with them. Similar to what happened here. People are going to gang up, say what they have to say, agree with only those who agree with them, and then will soak in their accomplishments by doing giving rep or wanting rep to give. It's nice that there are people like Carinata. Might not agree 100% with the live feeding, but totally accepts it and doesn't bash because it's not what they do.

I'm really disappointed in the responses I received in this thread. I thought people could be mature and give me the answer I was looking for (which I eventually got), instead I have 3 pages of people bashing on me, ridiculing me, and me defending my own personal opinions.

 

[Naagas]

I hope you keep asking questions on this forum...
I know that some of us get very enthusiastic about some subjects... sometimes because of our history of losing an animal.

But... there is lots of good info to be had.

 

[Nanci]

Even if you could guarantee, 100%, that a snake would never suffer an injury from live feeding, live feeding is still cruel to the prey animal.

 

[starsevol]

The whole reason I join forums is to expand my knowledge of a subject. To do this, I search threads or post my own if I have questions that aren't answered. When people join forums they are looking to get a general understanding of the subject from a community of people who partake in what I'm looking for. When I posted this thread, I had a serious question and was looking for an answer. Instead of people coming in and saying "I don't agree, but that's also another way to do it", I was confronted with "it's wrong, you're a murderer, karma goes a long way." What kind of example is this supposed to set if I was a new member? I'd sign off and never come back to this forum if I wasn't used to this crap.

From my understanding in the 20+ forums I've been a part of if you post something and people don't agree with it, you're just going to get slammed by a group of people who agree with the same thing and are going to make you feel like until you agree with them. Similar to what happened here. People are going to gang up, say what they have to say, agree with only those who agree with them, and then will soak in their accomplishments by doing giving rep or wanting rep to give. It's nice that there are people like Carinata. Might not agree 100% with the live feeding, but totally accepts it and doesn't bash because it's not what they do.

I'm really disappointed in the responses I received in this thread. I thought people could be mature and give me the answer I was looking for (which I eventually got), instead I have 3 pages of people bashing on me, ridiculing me, and me defending my own personal opinions.

For one thing, Carinata works with ball pythons. Not the same thing. For another thing, you started this thread knowing full well what the folks here were going to say. We are NOT going to hold your little hand and tell you what you want to hear. Not gonna happen.

FACT your snake could lose an eye or be badly bitten. (You don't care)
FACT There are numerous ways around this issue, either f/t or humanely killing the mice first. (Again you don't care).

Not quite sure what you came here to learn.
Seems you just wanted to fling poo.

 

[Lennycorn]

Even if you could guarantee, 100%, that a snake would never suffer an injury from live feeding, live feeding is still cruel to the prey animal.

Sometime it's hard to read the simple fine print!!

 

[Outcast]

Alpine, I posted the main reasoning why I do not feed live. I understand when there is a reason to, but again. You really have no reason to. Your snakes readily take F/T, yet you feed live because someone at the vet clinic told you it was a good idea. (correct me if I am wrong.)

It has been my experience that Veterinarians and those who work in Vet clinics, do not know all there is to know about various species. Heck, Darwin spent his adult life studying many different species of animals, and he only scratched the surface of what they do, why they do it, and how they got there.

To pin all of your actions on the words of one person that you work with, instead of accepting the answers that a community of people, who not only consists of Vet techs, but some of the people who have been around since the beginning of the trade, shows that you really just came here for one of 2 things. 1, to start things. 2, to look for the one or two people who agree with what you are doing.

Having not gotten a response to my earlier post, I do not expect one to this either. I even posted a picture of Gypsy, who was injured before I got her. Because the previous owner fed live, and the picture also shows a small injury on the top of her head when I fed her live once. That happened in a split second, I could do nothing about it, but you can see the small scab on her head. If the mouse would have gotten lucky it could have killed her.

 

[alpine]

For one thing, Carinata works with ball pythons. Not the same thing. For another thing, you started this thread knowing full well what the folks here were going to say. We are NOT going to hold your little hand and tell you what you want to hear. Not gonna happen.

FACT your snake could lose an eye or be badly bitten. (You don't care)
FACT There are numerous ways around this issue, either f/t or humanely killing the mice first. (Again you don't care).

Not quite sure what you came here to learn.
Seems you just wanted to fling poo.

Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall obviously. Nothing anyone says is going to get through to you. You're so biased on you're own opinion you're not even going to try to let anyone else opinion by you so what's the point?

I still can't believe I have to defend myself over this topic. I have so much to say, but there's no point in typing it all because you're just going to tell me I'm "wrong" and just repeat the same thing you've been saying. I've typed everything I wanted to say while making this post and just deleted it all because there's no point. Shame on me for doing something millions of people do and for letting my snake kill and it's food the natural way

And as I'm typing this my Lorax just finished up with her meal today. She seems quite satisfied, but I'm starting to feel bad because if it weren't for me that mouse would have been trapped in a box with 30+ of it's brothers and sisters and been gassed to death. Sounds like a mouse holocaust to me, but I'm not knocking on it..

In case you were wondering Bethany, Lorax still has both eyes. I'll keep you updated on that in the future because you seem pretty focused on my snake getting it's eyes bit out. Almost seems like you want it to happen just so I can be "taught my lesson".

I came here to learn what I asked and thanks to maybe 2-3 people I got what I was looking for. I asked a question you didn't like so keep referring to it as poo flinging. :duck:

 

[AliCat37]

I still can't believe I have to defend myself over this topic. I have so much to say, but there's no point in typing it all because you're just going to tell me I'm "wrong" and just repeat the same thing you've been saying. I've typed everything I wanted to say while making this post and just deleted it all because there's no point. Shame on me for doing something millions of people do and for letting my snake kill and it's food the natural way

You're defending the fact that you're basically torturing mice. Tell me what is natural about putting a snake and a mouse in a box together where neither one can escape the other? (box being cage, feeding tub, room, etc) Just because millions of people do it does not make it right, and the fact that someone at a vets office told you feeding live was better just shows the ignorance that most vets have to reptiles. Vets DO NOT learn about reptiles in their courses, they have to do additional training for it, and any vet who says that feeding live is a good idea is not a credible reptile vet.

 

[starsevol]

Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall obviously. Nothing anyone says is going to get through to you. You're so biased on you're own opinion you're not even going to try to let anyone else opinion by you so what's the point?

I still can't believe I have to defend myself over this topic. I have so much to say, but there's no point in typing it all because you're just going to tell me I'm "wrong" and just repeat the same thing you've been saying. I've typed everything I wanted to say while making this post and just deleted it all because there's no point. Shame on me for doing something millions of people do and for letting my snake kill and it's food the natural way

And as I'm typing this my Lorax just finished up with her meal today. She seems quite satisfied, but I'm starting to feel bad because if it weren't for me that mouse would have been trapped in a box with 30+ of it's brothers and sisters and been gassed to death. Sounds like a mouse holocaust to me, but I'm not knocking on it..

In case you were wondering Bethany, Lorax still has both eyes. I'll keep you updated on that in the future because you seem pretty focused on my snake getting it's eyes bit out. Almost seems like you want it to happen just so I can be "taught my lesson".

I came here to learn what I asked and thanks to maybe 2-3 people I got what I was looking for. I asked a question you didn't like so keep referring to it as poo flinging. :duck:

GEEZ, you act like I am the ONLY one who thinks you are not doing what's right for your snake. Please read what EVERYBODY ELSE has to say in this thread.

 

[Lennycorn]

Alpine, your scenario with the fresh steak vs the frozen one would only be relevant if you were speaking of Pre-Killed vs. Frozen/thawed.

The scenario that you should really be looking at is, If you eat deer meat. Lets say that I place you in a cage with a live deer, generally in the wild the deer would either run off, or chase you up a tree. But, in a cage, the deer, if cornered would tear you up and possibly kill you. It is completely possible for snakes to escape if things go bad in the wild, but in a cage, no matter how close you watch, bad things can happen. Look up Murphy's Law. Eventually things go wrong.

I hope that I showed you how messed up your tired scenario was, because I have heard it used many times before. I have also hears "Its more natural", but it is not natural to cage an animal in a 1foot by 2 foot cage and throw a potentially dangerous animal in there with them, It is called Thunderdome, and they made a movie about it with Mel Gibson and Tina Turner. Two enter, One leaves. Sometimes the Champ gets killed or terribly injured.

Oh, and even in the wild, the prey sometimes kills the predator.

Also, This is why I do not feed live. This is my snake, she was fed live her whole life by a guy in the German AF in Alamogordo NM. He gave her to a friend who turned her over to one of the pet stores where I got her. This is her Live Feeding Injury, that I am surprised did not take her life. She was very lucky.

If you look at the head of my snake, The brown on the top of her nose was from the one live feeding that I did. The mouse immediately turned around and bit her. It does not take "long periods" this was in the blink of an eye. Yes the longer a live mouse is in with the animal, the more risk you are taking, but you take that risk once you put the mouse in the cage.

Alpine, I posted the main reasoning why I do not feed live. I understand when there is a reason to, but again. You really have no reason to. Your snakes readily take F/T, yet you feed live because someone at the vet clinic told you it was a good idea. (correct me if I am wrong.)

It has been my experience that Veterinarians and those who work in Vet clinics, do not know all there is to know about various species. Heck, Darwin spent his adult life studying many different species of animals, and he only scratched the surface of what they do, why they do it, and how they got there.

To pin all of your actions on the words of one person that you work with, instead of accepting the answers that a community of people, who not only consists of Vet techs, but some of the people who have been around since the beginning of the trade, shows that you really just came here for one of 2 things. 1, to start things. 2, to look for the one or two people who agree with what you are doing.

Having not gotten a response to my earlier post, I do not expect one to this either. I even posted a picture of Gypsy, who was injured before I got her. Because the previous owner fed live, and the picture also shows a small injury on the top of her head when I fed her live once. That happened in a split second, I could do nothing about it, but you can see the small scab on her head. If the mouse would have gotten lucky it could have killed her.

I tend to agree!!
Hope he doing well.

 

[Outcast]

I tend to agree!!
Hope he doing well.

She is doing very well now. She actually is due to come out of brumation soon..LOL.. I may even breed her this year, though with school I doubt it is a good idea.

 

[Sita]

Shame on me for doing something millions of people do and for letting my snake kill and it's food the natural way

You've used the argument of "it's natural" several times. Just because something is natural doesn't mean it's not cruel. Being constricted and suffocated to death is something I can only imagine is painful, terrifying, and can last for minutes. Using CO2 on the other hand takes literally SECONDS (I'm talking 5 at most) to knock out the mouse or rat. There is no pain at all.

If you are so gung-ho about keeping your pets naturally, then I suggest you immediately kill all three of your snakes. As far as I know, only normals and anerys are found in the wild. If you're unwilling to do that, then let them go, since it's also unnatural to keep snakes in a box, since in the wild they roam for miles. If you're unwilling to do THAT, then please dig up some dirt, leaf litter, bugs (make sure you include some of those ticks that are often found on wild snakes!), and maybe some live plants too, since that's kind of what they live on in the wild. Oh, and you can only feed them wild mice found outside that might have internal parasites that they can pass on to the snake. And when you feed them, make sure the mouse can escape, since that happens in the wild too. If you ever breed, make sure you destroy half the clutch right off the bat, and kill about half of the babies right after they hatch, since that's natural too.

Can you see how your argument of "it's natural" is also completely ridiculous?

 

[starsevol]

So, just to get this straight, not only me but beautifullywild,Alicat37, Sita, Lennycorn, Nanci, Outcast, Cmalchow, VickyChaiTea, ZoologyGirl and Naagas have all said the same thing. Not just me, although my choice of words was a bit strong. But allll those people must be talking out of their rear ends, right?

 

[alpine]

You've used the argument of "it's natural" several times. Just because something is natural doesn't mean it's not cruel. Being constricted and suffocated to death is something I can only imagine is painful, terrifying, and can last for minutes. Using CO2 on the other hand takes literally SECONDS (I'm talking 5 at most) to knock out the mouse or rat. There is no pain at all.

If you are so gung-ho about keeping your pets naturally, then I suggest you immediately kill all three of your snakes. As far as I know, only normals and anerys are found in the wild. If you're unwilling to do that, then let them go, since it's also unnatural to keep snakes in a box, since in the wild they roam for miles. If you're unwilling to do THAT, then please dig up some dirt, leaf litter, bugs (make sure you include some of those ticks that are often found on wild snakes!), and maybe some live plants too, since that's kind of what they live on in the wild. Oh, and you can only feed them wild mice found outside that might have internal parasites that they can pass on to the snake. And when you feed them, make sure the mouse can escape, since that happens in the wild too. If you ever breed, make sure you destroy half the clutch right off the bat, and kill about half of the babies right after they hatch, since that's natural too.

Can you see how your argument of "it's natural" is also completely ridiculous?

Lol you really care about the mice huh? Did you really tell me to kill all 3 of my snakes? How about you go **** yourself buddy. Seriously, how moronic can you be? Talking about being humane to animals and then suggest I kill my snakes?

^^That last post pretty much sums up the ignorance I'm being fed on this forum. I'm done with this conversation, I'm sorry you all don't agree with me or the way I feed my snakes and I know you guys were trying to help but a lot of you could have handled the situation better.

 

[starsevol]

Lol you really care about the mice huh? Did you really tell me to kill all 3 of my snakes? How about you go **** yourself buddy. Seriously, how moronic can you be? Talking about being humane to animals and then suggest I kill my snakes?

^^That last post pretty much sums up the ignorance I'm being fed on this forum. I'm done with this conversation, I'm sorry you all don't agree with me or the way I feed my snakes and I know you guys were trying to help but a lot of you could have handled the situation better.

Her point was not only is keeping a snake unnatural, but morphs are too, so if it is "natural" you are aiming for, then kill your snakes if your argument is all about "naturalness".

 

[Sai_Keths]

Yes, There are dangers to feeding live.
No, A PINKY will not cause that danger
Yes, Live and fresh-killed have more nutrients
Yes, Feeding live may be cruel
No, Mice are not killed humanely in the wild

My advice, since you have the live mice, do what I do, Kill them first to be safe

 

[Lennycorn]

Nice good bye tour!! We see them come and seen them go!!! :laugh:

The door to the left.

No need to reply if you want us to take you seriously!!

 

[beautifullywild77]

Lol you really care about the mice huh? Did you really tell me to kill all 3 of my snakes? How about you go **** yourself buddy. Seriously, how moronic can you be? Talking about being humane to animals and then suggest I kill my snakes?

^^That last post pretty much sums up the ignorance I'm being fed on this forum. I'm done with this conversation, I'm sorry you all don't agree with me or the way I feed my snakes and I know you guys were trying to help but a lot of you could have handled the situation better.

wow, she was just giving an example about how they are naturally in the wild. Keeping corns in capitivity is totally different than wild corn snakes. But I'd be careful about what you implied Sita go to do. Just saying. In no way is that a threat, I have just seen where talking like that can go.
I haven't been rude nor called you names. I pointed out facts to your argument. maybe I jumped the gun when I said you were just trying to start a flame war but thats what it seems like to me and others.

 

[Sai_Keths]

Oh, and to everyone else, Keep your opinions to yourself.
This would have gone much better if you people had acted your age and replied to Alpines original post by saying something like this:

There are some risks to feeding live, such as the prey biting or scratching the snake.
Also it is a bit inhumane.
I suggest feeding all of your snake Fresh Killed or Frozen/Thawed

 

[starsevol]

Oh, and to everyone else, Keep your opinions to yourself.
This would have gone much better if you people had acted your age and replied to Alpines original post by saying something like this:

There are some risks to feeding live, such as the prey biting or scratching the snake.
Also it is a bit inhumane.
I suggest feeding all of your snake Fresh Killed or Frozen/Thawed

Um sorry kid. You don't make the rules here. No one muzzles me except the people in charge here.