Ghost question...

[Cruxite]

So I have a little Ghost corn snake and there's something kind of curious about his eyes. They're a bluish color with dark red pupils. I'm quite sure that ghosts have black pupils and I was wondering if him being het for amel would perhaps have anything to do with his eyes? Not that it's bad or anything, it's just kind of curious.
My camera is kinda cruddy but here's a picture:
http://i42.tinypic.com/8z42kl.jpg

 

[Susan]

It's actually pretty normal to see hypos and ghosts with ruby pupils like your ghost is showing. Unfortunately, they tend to get dark as they age.

 

[DMong]

It's actually pretty normal to see hypos and ghosts with ruby pupils like your ghost is showing. Unfortunately, they tend to get dark as they age.

Yeah, but don't forget there are also many thought to be "ghosts" out there that are actually utramel anerys that have a very similar look to the higher expression ghosts.


~Doug

 

[Susan]

Yeah, but don't forget there are also many thought to be "ghosts" out there that are actually utramel anerys that have a very similar look to the higher expression ghosts.


~Doug

I was unaware that there are that many presumed ghosts that are actually ultramel anerys out there. Where did your hear this, just out of curiosity? I'm basing my statement solely on personal experience. I know my ghosts and hypos have no ultra in them and I still see plenty of ruby eyes in both morphs. Lavenders also often have ruby eyes.

 

[DMong]

I was unaware that there are that many presumed ghosts that are actually ultramel anerys out there. Where did your hear this, just out of curiosity? I'm basing my statement solely on personal experience. I know my ghosts and hypos have no ultra in them and I still see plenty of ruby eyes in both morphs. Lavenders also often have ruby eyes.

Yes, it's certainly true that plenty of ghosts, hypos and especially lavenders can (and do) have ruby-red eyes, and I am certainly not saying that yours or many other nice ghosts with ruby-red eyes are either. But I know for an absolute fact that just one breeder alone bred and sold countless what he thought were exceptional "ghosts" throughout the country for six years until one year he accidentally discovered (and 100% verified)that these were actually ultramel anery's from a very particular breeding he did years after the fact. I can only assume using common logic that many of those offspring, and so on and so on went on to be bred to produce many more of these as well. Also, I would have to also logically assume that out of all the many countless unknown snakes that are bought and sold around the country every year from the plethora of different sources like classifieds and pet stores for example, there would have to be many exceptional ghost phenotypes that were actually ultramel anerys as well.

I am certainly not trying to toss a wrench into the gears with any of this, but I am very much a realist that definitely understands how the true dynamics of this hobby works with folks going solely by what a snake appears to be. I think that if people test-bred alot of the exceptionally light ghosts with ruby-red eyes they have out there, a substantial number would be surprised with what they found.

The way I see it, if this happened to this one particularly knowledgeable and responsible breeder, it could happen to virtually anyone at all, and probably has many times over.


~Doug

 

[Tom Tuttle]

Yeah, but don't forget there are also many thought to be "ghosts" out there that are actually utramel anerys that have a very similar look to the higher expression ghosts.


~Doug

This is news to me too Susan.

Yes, it's certainly true that plenty of ghosts, hypos and especially lavenders can (and do) have ruby-red eyes, and I am certainly not saying that yours or many other nice ghosts with ruby-red eyes are either. But I know for an absolute fact that just one breeder alone bred and sold countless what he thought were exceptional "ghosts" throughout the country for six years until one year he accidentally discovered (and 100% verified)that these were actually ultramel anery's from a very particular breeding he did years after the fact. I can only assume using common logic that many of those offspring, and so on and so on went on to be bred to produce many more of these as well. Also, I would have to also logically assume that out of all the many countless unknown snakes that are bought and sold around the country every year from the plethora of different sources like classifieds and pet stores for example, there would have to be many exceptional ghost phenotypes that were actually ultramel anerys as well.

I am certainly not trying to toss a wrench into the gears with any of this, but I am very much a realist that definitely understands how the true dynamics of this hobby works with folks going solely by what a snake appears to be. I think that if people test-bred alot of the exceptionally light ghosts with ruby-red eyes they have out there, a substantial number would be surprised with what they found.

The way I see it, if this happened to this one particularly knowledgeable and responsible breeder, it could happen to virtually anyone at all, and probably has many times over.


~Doug

Please PM me some contact information of this responsible breeder??:shrugs: I'd like to hear some of the facts directly from the scource.

 

[Susan]

Interesting! Of course, now I'm curious who that breeder is! I have 1 ultramel anery motley in my collection and she does look quite different than my other ghosts/ghost motleys which have been bred to each other as well as numerous other morphs from other sources and the offspring never indicated there was anything else involved but anery and hypo. Yes, some are het amel and I've gotten both amels and snows in some clutches, but the expected percentages of each morph always were pretty close and when bred to amel or het amels known not het hypo, the offspring came out as expected there as well. I just consider ultramel anerys to be a fairly newer morph combo so thinking there are that many corns out there in general carrying the ultra gene just didn't come to mind, especially when the first ultra/ultramels came out, the business about them being hybrids kept many breeders from reproducing them or even having them in their collection. But along those lines, since there are more corns out there that are more likely ultras and not hypos, the less of a leg those screaming "hybrid" have to stand on, IMO!

 

[Tom Tuttle]

more holes than swiss cheese

Yes, it's certainly true that plenty of ghosts, hypos and especially lavenders can (and do) have ruby-red eyes, and I am certainly not saying that yours or many other nice ghosts with ruby-red eyes are either. But I know for an absolute fact that just one breeder alone bred and sold countless what he thought were exceptional "ghosts" throughout the country for six years until one year he accidentally discovered (and 100% verified)that these were actually ultramel anery's from a very particular breeding he did years after the fact. I can only assume using common logic that many of those offspring, and so on and so on went on to be bred to produce many more of these as well. Also, I would have to also logically assume that out of all the many countless unknown snakes that are bought and sold around the country every year from the plethora of different sources like classifieds and pet stores for example, there would have to be many exceptional ghost phenotypes that were actually ultramel anerys as well.

I am certainly not trying to toss a wrench into the gears with any of this, but I am very much a realist that definitely understands how the true dynamics of this hobby works with folks going solely by what a snake appears to be. I think that if people test-bred alot of the exceptionally light ghosts with ruby-red eyes they have out there, a substantial number would be surprised with what they found.

The way I see it, if this happened to this one particularly knowledgeable and responsible breeder, it could happen to virtually anyone at all, and probably has many times over.


~Doug

What is perhaps the most puzzling aspect to me is:
How do you produce a ghost from an ultramel anery? :shrugs:
How were there not any snows in the clutch assuming it was ultramel anery x same.
If the breeding was ultramel anery x ghost the results would produce only anery/ hets.

 

[Shiari]

Yeah, that gets me too. If he thought he had a line of exceptional ghosts, when breeding these together he should have realised fairly quickly they weren't. I doubt he could have produced all that many animals if he was only breeding a single pair. And did he never cross the male to his female ghosts... which would have then produced aneries, proving it wasn't a ghost after all?

 

[DMong]

What is perhaps the most puzzling aspect to me is:
How do you produce a ghost from an ultramel anery? :shrugs:
How were there not any snows in the clutch assuming it was ultramel anery x same.
If the breeding was ultramel anery x ghost the results would produce only anery/ hets.

I am not going to be any part of a "witch hunt" regarding this whatsoever, I am ONLY stating what he personally posted about what he found. Here is what he personally posted regarding them and what his findings were back in October of 2008 when he discovered what had happened........it sure as hell isn't like this is the first time this sort of thing has happened to a breeder or buyer. There are countless hundreds of thousands of snakes out there that nobody has the slightest clue about what is really in there genetic lineage for crying out loud, and this was no different. Only difference being that he acknowledged it and publicly apologized.

Below is his post as I copied and pasted it directly word for word........

********

I've been making a mistake for the last six years.

I'm posting this all over the net because now that I realize that I goofed I have to come clean about it. I'm just glad that I caught it before anyone else did.

My Ghost line is actually an Anery Ultramel line.

I know this now because when I bred one of my 'Ghosts' to a Butter Motley expecting phenotypical Normals and Amels, I got Amels and Ultramels instead.

I thought that I had proven that my line was Hypo A when I bred to a non related Anery het Hypo and got 'Ghosts' what I have figured out that happened is that that Anery was het Amel and what I saw was the effects of an Ultramel X Amel pairing, not a Hypo X Hypo like I thought.

The matriarch of this whole line is a snake that looks like a Hypo and I bought as a Hypo. The Patriarch is a Snow which after producing hatchlings I mistakingly believed was het Hypo. Now I know that Grandma is a straight up Ultra (Hypo type D) and what I observed was the effects of an Amel X Ultra pairing.

Over the years I have sold a LOT of these snakes as Hypos and Ghosts and I honestly thought that is what they were. For those of you that bought these snakes, I guess you got Ultramels and Anery Ultramels at reduced prices. If anyone has an issue with this, please contact me in private and I'll do what I can to make it right.

This also means that unfortunately that Coral Snow Mot from a Ghost het Amel and Motley pairing is actually just a Snow Mot from an Anery Ultramel het Motley pairing.

Big time egg on the face for that one!!!!! But it was a mistake easily made. Now I've got to correct it.

This means also that my Caramel Ghost Motley project is no more.....until I realized that the only two hatchlings from my Butter mot X Silverqueen Ghost pairing are a male and female pair......I can still do that one, just from another angle.

Now I'm thinking up what to do with a bunch of Ultramels and Amels het Caramel and Anery.


Basically, I goofed.The Ultra trait is running rampant in my collection and I have to redo a LOT of nametags and records.

Thankfully I have not sold any 'Ghosts' this season yet.

I'm really embarassed by this mistake. The only consolation I have is that I was able to identify it.

 

[DMong]

Ooops!,...correction on the date though. I was looking at his "join date" on the forum, not the date he posted it. It was posted on 8/26/10.


~Doug

 

[Tom Tuttle]

I am not going to be any part of a "witch hunt" regarding this whatsoever, I am ONLY stating what he personally posted about what he found. Here is what he personally posted regarding them and what his findings were back in October of 2008 when he discovered what had happened........it sure as hell isn't like this is the first time this sort of thing has happened to a breeder or buyer. There are countless hundreds of thousands of snakes out there that nobody has the slightest clue about what is really in there genetic lineage for crying out loud, and this was no different. Only difference being that he acknowledged it and publicly apologized.

Below is his post as I copied and pasted it directly word for word........

********

I've been making a mistake for the last six years.

I'm posting this all over the net because now that I realize that I goofed I have to come clean about it. I'm just glad that I caught it before anyone else did.

My Ghost line is actually an Anery Ultramel line.

I know this now because when I bred one of my 'Ghosts' to a Butter Motley expecting phenotypical Normals and Amels, I got Amels and Ultramels instead.

I thought that I had proven that my line was Hypo A when I bred to a non related Anery het Hypo and got 'Ghosts' what I have figured out that happened is that that Anery was het Amel and what I saw was the effects of an Ultramel X Amel pairing, not a Hypo X Hypo like I thought.
The matriarch of this whole line is a snake that looks like a Hypo and I bought as a Hypo. The Patriarch is a Snow which after producing hatchlings I mistakingly believed was het Hypo. Now I know that Grandma is a straight up Ultra (Hypo type D) and what I observed was the effects of an Amel X Ultra pairing.

Over the years I have sold a LOT of these snakes as Hypos and Ghosts and I honestly thought that is what they were. For those of you that bought these snakes, I guess you got Ultramels and Anery Ultramels at reduced prices. If anyone has an issue with this, please contact me in private and I'll do what I can to make it right.

This also means that unfortunately that Coral Snow Mot from a Ghost het Amel and Motley pairing is actually just a Snow Mot from an Anery Ultramel het Motley pairing.

Big time egg on the face for that one!!!!! But it was a mistake easily made. Now I've got to correct it.

This means also that my Caramel Ghost Motley project is no more.....until I realized that the only two hatchlings from my Butter mot X Silverqueen Ghost pairing are a male and female pair......I can still do that one, just from another angle.

Now I'm thinking up what to do with a bunch of Ultramels and Amels het Caramel and Anery.


Basically, I goofed.The Ultra trait is running rampant in my collection and I have to redo a LOT of nametags and records.

Thankfully I have not sold any 'Ghosts' this season yet.

I'm really embarassed by this mistake. The only consolation I have is that I was able to identify it.

Since this is already posted somewhere on the site a link to the thread would be more appropriate. The results from the highlighted part don't make sense. If one parent was anery/het amel ultramels, & snows in addition to ultramel anery would have been produced.

 

[Kevin S.]

I thought I'd go on record as saying that I purchased a "ghost" that turned out to be an ultramel anery as confirmed by breeding results. It happens (and honestly I'm glad it did in my case). She didn't come from the breeder Doug's talking about, but she's an 07. So apparently ultramel aneries have been produced for the last 5 years or so that were sold as ghosts by more than one breeder.

 

[DMong]

Since this is already posted somewhere on the site a link to the thread would be more appropriate. The results from the highlighted part don't make sense. If one parent was anery/het amel ultramels, & snows in addition to ultramel anery would have been produced.

And they very well might have been produced and assumed as something else, I don't know anything about it other than what he posted. I am not going to get in the middle of any of it..........none! I simply copied and pasted his post directly from the original source.

Kevin S. can certainly attest to some of this from his previously un-known altramel/anery post. I am NOT going to get any new fires started under the guys feet...period!. If nobody thinks it happened the way he said, that's fine, if they do, that's fine too. I have ZERO to do with any of it whatsoever besides the physical copying and pasting of the post. Like I mentioned before, I very much understand how the real-world" dynamics of this hobby works, and there are literally MILLIONS of individual facets to the big wheel that drives it. This was just an example of one tiny facet of it.



~Doug

 

[chris68]

Sean of VMS Herps "Tequila Sunrise" female was for a few years thought to be a weird, frosted anery A with hets to throw ghosts and snows also when crossed to the "pastel" ghost het amel he bred her to. It was pot luck (or a real good eye) back then to pick out the ghosts that turned out to be ultramel anery A's, as she was proven out to be an ultramel anery A het hypo, motley

 

[Tom Tuttle]

And they very well might have been produced and assumed as something else, I don't know anything about it other than what he posted. I am not going to get in the middle of any of it..........none! I simply copied and pasted his post directly from the original source.

Kevin S. can certainly attest to some of this from his previously un-known altramel/anery post. I am NOT going to get any new fires started under the guys feet...period!. If nobody thinks it happened the way he said, that's fine, if they do, that's fine too. I have ZERO to do with any of it whatsoever besides the physical copying and pasting of the post. Like I mentioned before, I very much understand how the real-world" dynamics of this hobby works, and there are literally MILLIONS of individual facets to the big wheel that drives it. This was just an example of one tiny facet of it.



~Doug

Since your scource has already posted it on a public forum, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't object to a link to the thread.

 

[DMong]

Sean of VMS Herps "Tequila Sunrise" female was for a few years thought to be a weird, frosted anery A with hets to throw ghosts and snows also when crossed to the "pastel" ghost het amel he bred her to. It was pot luck (or a real good eye) back then to pick out the ghosts that turned out to be ultramel anery A's, as she was proven out to be an ultramel anery A het hypo, motley

I hear ya Chris..LOL!, and I guarantee LOTS of the offspring in the process were sold as whatever they "best" represented at that particular given time too. It's true reality, nothing more, nothing less...

You should try getting really heavy into the king and milksnake hobby like I have been for a few decades and tell me what you have found out there..LOL!

Speaking of which,........here are a pair of genuinely AUTHENTIC central Guatemalan milksnakes (L.t.abnorma) that I am in the middle of acquiring. Thes two SMOKING representations are from a group of actual import animals obtained from the higher elevations of central Guatemala where the other Latin subspecies have zero influence. These are now the ONLY known authentic bloodline in this entire country or Europe. All other authentic abnorma that were ever here in this country have long since vanished into the "hobby Hondo" melting pot hodge-podge, including the pair I had in the early 90's. It is simply because almost nobody in this country is familiar with the precise differences and key characteristics set these apart from the other subspecies, as well as understand what their specific ranges actually are (or even care to know..LOL!). All others that are "claimed" to be true L.t.abnorma are totally bogus, and are either genuine polyzona or crosses consisting of polyzona, abnorma, hondurensis, stuarti and whatever else.

I won't even say what this pair is worth or will actually cost me, but lets just say these are going to run me a bit more than a pair of typical pet "Hondos" on Craigs List..HAHAHA!!

Even better still, I am getting the absolute best pair with the absolute highest triad counts, which is actually what the subspecific name "abnorma" literally refers to....

~Doug

Here is the incredible 31 RBR (red body rings) female abnorma........

Here is the insane 33 RBR male abnorma...........

Most all folks in this hobby would simply assume that these are nothing more than high ring-count "Hondos", and these people will also never get any of these from me either..LOL!. See, that is the very reason they completely vanished from the hobby many years ago in the first place. Not to mention these are typically confused with very different looking bi-colored L.t.polyzona from further north and west in the lowland elevations of Guatemala, Tobasco, Veracruz, Chiapas, part of northern Belize and the southern Yucatan peninsula....

 

[Tom Tuttle]

I hear ya Chris..LOL!, and I guarantee LOTS of the offspring in the process were sold as whatever they "best" represented at that particular given time too. It's true reality, nothing more, nothing less...

You should try getting really heavy into the king and milksnake hobby like I have been for a few decades and tell me what you have found out there..LOL!

Speaking of which,........here are a pair of genuinely AUTHENTIC central Guatemalan milksnakes (L.t.abnorma) that I am in the middle of acquiring. Thes two SMOKING representations are from a group of actual import animals obtained from the higher elevations of central Guatemala where the other Latin subspecies have zero influence. These are now the ONLY known authentic bloodline in this entire country or Europe. All other authentic abnorma that were ever here in this country have long since vanished into the "hobby Hondo" melting pot hodge-podge, including the pair I had in the early 90's. It is simply because almost nobody in this country is familiar with the precise differences and key characteristics set these apart from the other subspecies, as well as understand what their specific ranges actually are (or even care to know..LOL!). All others that are "claimed" to be true L.t.abnorma are totally bogus, and are either genuine polyzona or crosses consisting of polyzona, abnorma, hondurensis, stuarti and whatever else.

I won't even say what this pair is worth or will actually cost me, but lets just say these are going to run me a bit more than a pair of typical pet "Hondos" on Craigs List..HAHAHA!!

Even better still, I am getting the absolute best pair with the absolute highest triad counts, which is actually what the subspecific name "abnorma" literally refers to....

~Doug

Here is the incredible 31 RBR (red body rings) female abnorma........

Here is the insane 33 RBR male abnorma...........

Most all folks in this hobby would simply assume that these are nothing more than high ring-count "Hondos", and these people will also never get any of these from me either..LOL!. See, that is the very reason they completely vanished from the hobby many years ago in the first place. Not to mention these are typically confused with very different looking bi-colored L.t.polyzona from further north and west in the lowland elevations of Guatemala, Tobasco, Veracruz, Chiapas, part of northern Belize and the southern Yucatan peninsula....

Nobody will ever confuse those with a ghost! Let alone a corn.

 

[DMong]

Since your scource has already posted it on a public forum, I'm pretty sure he wouldn't object to a link to the thread.

But Tom,....since he posted this way back on 8/26/10, I seriously doubt he would love to re-hash the very same things all over again....I seriously doubt that he is a "masochist" and would welcome it,... but I could be wrong...HAHA!!


~Doug

 

[DMong]

Nobody will ever confuse those with a ghost! Let alone a corn.

LOL!!,.......very true Tom... :roflmao:

I sort of slipped those in there to display how things often aren't what they seem sometimes. .........Oh!, and also to show them off a bit....


~Doug