Green "bruise" on dead snake? ;_; Help?

[incandescent]

Trinket, my 7-month-old golddust motley female, was dead when I went to check on her this evening, and I don't know what happened. I haven't handled her excessively (>5 minutes out of viv total -- 2 minutes to get pictures, and about 30 seconds to move her from the tank she was sharing overnight with Pierce to her own new viv). She's been drinking, thermo-regulating and hasn't seemed to be in any sort of distress. I don't know if she's been off her feed, since I just got her Sunday, but she hasn't shown any other signs of agitation.

I found her dead a few minutes ago. Moved her around a little bit to make sure she wasn't just being very sedentary, and I noticed a small greenish discoloration on the lower half of her body (somewhere between half and 2/3 of the way down her body). It's grass-green and looks kind of like a bruise -- it isn't a leaking fluid, but the coloration is very visible against her creamy underbelly. Does anyone know what this is? Is it contagious to other snakes, or some terrible fault in my husbandry, or just bad luck...?

Sent an email to the breeder, who seems like a genuinely good guy (he's been staying in contact and answering questions for me), but I thought I'd go ahead and post here to see if anyone else knew what was going on.

And for the record, I thought I saw a discoloration on the stomach a day or two ago, but I couldn't remember if it was her or my amel, Kismet. I didn't want to disturb them again to check, so I don't know which it actually was. When I asked the breeder, he said it was probably that I could faintly see the organs in my amel, since they're so lightly colored. But this bruise-ish thing is in roughly the same spot, though it didn't appear green last time I saw it. I also thought it might be something undigested in the snake, but he said the two I bought from him should have passed anything in their system by now.

Sorry if I'm not being as accurate or articulate as I ought to be. I'm just really worried that I've somehow managed to kill my snake, and I don't want Kismet and Pierce to get sick from the same thing if it's an illness (or, for that matter, if I'm somehow neglecting their care).

Do you know what this is? Is it likely to harm my other snakes, or just the stress from moving to a new home..?

I can post pictures of the discoloration if necessary.

 

[jlindp]

I'm sorry to hear of your loss. Sometimes we lose babies and there seems to be no good reason. Almost all of us have been there, including myself.

Sadly, the bruise-like spot you're seeing is the gall bladder and is just something that happens when a snake dies, and usually has nothing to do with the actual death.

Again, very sorry about your baby.

 

[Sweetseraph]

I'm sorry about your loss. If you've only had her such a short time, it's not likely anything you did wrong that caused it.

But I think it's important to note that you should not put a newly acquired snake in with another one. If the new snake was sick, yours could catch something. The new snake should be quarantined from any snakes you already have. Also, it is stressful for both snakes to share a cage.

 

[incandescent]

-nod- I've heard all the issues with cohabitation, and it wasn't a long-term thing. They were together overnight Sunday night -- went to a show intending to get two snakes, and couldn't pass up the third, but only had two tanks of acceptable size. Trinket and Pierce were in the same 10-gallon tank for approximately ten hours before separation (was waiting for the store to open). And when I knew I had to put two together overnight, I made sure that it was the two from the same breeder. I didn't want to worry about cross-contamination, since Kismet was from a different (seemingly less reputable) breeder. They've all been in their own individual vivs since midday Monday, though. If it was stress from living with Pierce for that handful of hours, wouldn't it have happened sooner?

 

[SquamishSerpents]

personally, i don't think cohabitation for ANY amount of hours is acceptable, UNLESS the snakes are copulating. snakes of less than adult size are way more likely to cannibalize each other, regardless of weather they came from the same clutch, let alone the same breeder.

 

[incandescent]

I understand that, Katia, and I'm not arguing. Cohabitation isn't something I support, particularly after seeing so many pictures of cannibalized babies. My third tank (which was tiny anyway) had a hole in it of questionable size, and I didn't want to risk an escaped corn. I thought it was safer to leave them together for ten hours until WalMart opened. If they'd escaped, my dogs would have eaten them, period. It wasn't a good situation no matter how you spin it, but it was the best I could do.

The reason being from the same breeder was mentioned was because of contagious illness, not cannibalization. I knew I was going to have to stow two of them together overnight, and I chose the two from the same breeder in case there was an infectious illness. If one of them was ill, the other was likely to be ill with the same thing; if one was well, the other from the same clutch was likely also well. The third snake was from a different breeder who didn't seem as involved with his snakes as the former, and I decided it was the bigger risk for illness, so I chose it to be the one that stayed alone. Again, not saying it's The Way To Go, but it was the best educated choice I could make at the time. The broken cage put a hitch in my plans, and I quarantined the one that I thought most likely to be at risk.

I've read enough to know how vehement people get on the cohabitation subject, and I'll be extremely irritated if that becomes the topic of this thread. I've said that it was for ten hours, unintentional, necessary due to a broken cage lid, and that it was remedied literally as soon as the nearest store with snake-habitable containers was open in the morning. I'd like to believe that we're rational people who understand that everything doesn't always function perfectly according to plan, and that objects do break, et cetera. The other option was to leave one of them in the deli cup without water overnight, after it had already been in that condition all day at the reptile show. I don't know how often a snake needs water, but I assumed it was at least once per day, which would make leaving it in the deli cup deprivation of a necessary resource. I thought this was the more humane way to go. Burn me at the stake if you have to, but I did what I thought was best for my snakes.

 

[Candachan]

No offense, but it's a bit foolish to buy two snakes when you already knew you only had one viv. She would have been fine in the deli-cup overnight with a soda cap of water.

Sorry about your loss.

 

[Candachan]

I might have misread that and thought you knew about the hole in the Viv when you bought them, but I see I'm probably mistaken. Still, the deli-cup would have been alright.

 

[incandescent]

They wouldn't knock over a soda cap? Everything I read said to make sure it was something with a heavy bottom so the snake wouldn't accidentally tip the water container. I actually thought about that when I discovered the hole, but I was sure they'd tip it over.

 

[Sweetseraph]

If it was stress from living with Pierce for that handful of hours, wouldn't it have happened sooner?

Personally I wouldn't think it would have been the problem, but I don't consider myself an expert of any sort. I just wanted to mention it in case you didn't know and for the benefit of anyone else who didn't know reading the thread. You did what you thought was the best thing to do, given the circumstances.

Not that I am advocating keeping 2 corns together, but maybe it will ease your mind to know that I have a customer (I work at a pet store) who refuses to listen and has kept his corns together for years. I don't think the stress of corns living together would kill them directly, especially in such a short time. I think it is indirect, for instance, not eating, regurging, etc. Those things can be a direct result of cohabbing corns, but cohabbing doesn't kill them directly (unless of course one eats the other).

 

[incandescent]

Oh, the joys of working in a pet store! Don't even get me started x_X I love the customers who come in and wail "Help! Save me! Answer my questions!" and then proceed to completely ignore every piece of advice you give them. (I'm a dog trainer at the local PetSmart, and there's one in every class. They usually also worship Cesar Milan and pray to the god of choke chains and alpha rolls). My own parents are two of those customers, and they still refuse to admit that I know more about dogs than they do.

I'm not intending to be that customer here. I've been reading through this forum pretty much since I decided to get my snakes, and I feel like I've learned a lot from you guys. You're certainly more informative than the majority of what I found on the web, and it's easier to pick up new information when it's presented in a dialogue style. (Guess that's the bookworm in me -- "show, don't tell" applies to critter care, too?) I learn very poorly from Instruction Guides, but very quickly from listening to experts bicker about nitpicky details. I've certainly gotten my share of that here, and I feel like it's helped me.

I knew cohabitating was bad, but it really seemed like the only choice I had. I wasn't aware that I'd be able to get the snake water in the deli cup, and I didn't want it to escape. My dogs have a tendency to "play" other animals to death/injury, and I didn't want to risk that. The breeder said he knew a few people who had had success with cohabitating, so I didn't think it'd kill them overnight. After reading so many horror stories, I'd already decided not to risk it in the long run. I know it's possible to keep them together, but it's not something I'd choose to do. I don't really have a reason to keep them together in the long run, you know? I can afford separate enclosures for them, and I understand that they wouldn't be comfortable sharing -- what reasons do I need beyond that?

I know I'm coming across as defensive on the cohabitating thing, and I'm sorry to get so prickly about it. I was reading the post with Jemma-(somenumber) which ended up being a six-page dog fight over a relatively harmless comment, and I'm not inclined to offer myself as bait for the same treatment. I thought she made a poor choice with her snakes, yes, but attacking her to the point that she'd hate/resent the whole forum doesn't help to educate her in the long run if she never comes back to learn more. I'm trying to remind you that I am listening to your advice, because I'm fully cognizant of the fact that I don't know everything I need to know about keepin' corns. I need this resource, and I'm trying to get what knowledge I can about what could have killed my pet. Browbeating me for doing the best I could in a pinch doesn't really serve a purpose, as I see it, especially since it's unlikely to have been the cause of death. It just makes me feel like a poor keeper after already burying a pet.

Now I'm ranting. This isn't directed at you -- it's a broad thing, partially in response to this thread and partially to the thread with Jemma-whatever-her-name-was. It's 6am, and if I had any sense, I'd have been asleep for hours now. I'm irritable and confused as to why my snake died, hoping it's nothing spontaneously contagious that can spread through brief contact to Pierce or through the air to Kismet's viv, and probably not coherent/awake enough to be posting on a public forum. Oh, and add in a nice dollop of guilt, too. The breeder must think I'm some irresponsible child, to so quickly manage to kill a snake that's been perfectly healthy until now.

From ranting to self-pitying. Oh, that's an improvement, Natalie! [/sarcasm]

I'm going to bed. I think it's the only way to stop making an ass of myself at this point. Maybe I'll have developed tact and social skills by the time the sun rises.

 

[Feuerhak]

Personally, I think you're articulating yourself very well, and speaking like an intelligent person trying to come with an answer to what is likely an unanswerable question. As a "new guy" and also one who looks for EVERY bit of nitpicky information I can find, my guess is that there was something fundamentally wrong with the little guy. That's not to say those 10 hours didn't exacerbate the problem, but my guess would be that it wasn't the root cause or the only cause

Hope you got some good sleep!

 

[ssssinful-1]

I know I'm coming across as defensive on the cohabitating thing, and I'm sorry to get so prickly about it. I was reading the post with Jemma-(somenumber) which ended up being a six-page dog fight over a relatively harmless comment, and I'm not inclined to offer myself as bait for the same treatment. I thought she made a poor choice with her snakes, yes, but attacking her to the point that she'd hate/resent the whole forum doesn't help to educate her in the long run if she never comes back to learn more.

I'm trying to remind you that I am listening to your advice, because I'm fully cognizant of the fact that I don't know everything I need to know about keepin' corns. I need this resource, and I'm trying to get what knowledge I can about what could have killed my pet. Browbeating me for doing the best I could in a pinch doesn't really serve a purpose, as I see it, especially since it's unlikely to have been the cause of death. It just makes me feel like a poor keeper after already burying a pet.

Incandescent...I am so very sorry to hear about the loss of your little corn.

I, for one, am so glad that you took the initiative to speak up about how you felt attacked on your thread. Your thread is not the first, but I genuinely hope would be the last for those members to feel inclined to criticize.

I was told about this forum from a breeder who highly recommended it as a wealth of information. After being on this forum for a few months, I couldn't agree more. There are some very respectable and reputable breeders/owners on here that offer great advice in based on their years of experience with corns.

I have read your thread- and many other threads where a member shares their story or asks a question looking for education and a better understanding- and at times some closure to an unfortunate loss. There are several on the forum that tend to put in their two cents and be a critic by picking apart what was done wrong instead of an educate. Some tend to forget that everyone was a noobs to corns at one point or another. Of course with a wide range of personalities, there are a few who lack tact. That being said, maybe we read a post or a thread and maybe read too much into?

Again, I am sorry to hear about your loss. Don't give up on the forum. There is sound advise and many answers to questions here.

Best of luck to you!

 

[Kaminoke]

I seriously do not believe the brief cohabbing is what ultimately led to your corn's ultimate demise. I'm sure it was stressed, if nothing else from the move, but if it had that much of an effect on it I would not expect it to die a week later. Yes, cohabbing is generally accepted as bad, and I am a strong advocate against it. But it's not like you're sticking random snakes together on purpose, you just had to do the best you could with the situation you were given, and you remedied the situation asap. I see no reason to berate you for it given the circumstances.

Unfortunately sometimes these things just happen. The little guys don't always make it, and there is a plethora of possible causes, many of which are completely out of our control. If your setup was right and the temps were good, he had water, etc., then I'm sure that it's nothing you did. It just happens, and hopefully the breeder will work with you on getting a refund or a replacement. And like Jessica said earlier, the green spot is a common sight on a dead snake and is due to the gall bladder staining everything around it green post-mortem.

 

[arrowhd]

I'm trying to remind you that I am listening to your advice, because I'm fully cognizant of the fact that I don't know everything I need to know about keepin' corns. I need this resource, and I'm trying to get what knowledge I can about what could have killed my pet. Browbeating me for doing the best I could in a pinch doesn't really serve a purpose, as I see it, especially since it's unlikely to have been the cause of death. It just makes me feel like a poor keeper after already burying a pet.

Very good point. Sorry about your loss.

 

[ArpeggioAngel]

Thank you for being patient with us and being willing to stick around to learn.
I know some people on this forum come across a little...harsh sometimes. It seems that we all forget from time to time that we were all newbies once. Everyone just becomes so passionate about their reptiles that we often lay things bare without regards to an individuals feelings. In some cases, it almost seems like the only way to get a point across (some people are just too stubborn and do not want to listen to good advice given in a respectful manner), but in your case I believe it is completely unwarranted. You have already exhibited your willingness to learn more about these animals and the correct way to care for them.

I do agree that leaving them together for that short of a time period should not have lead to ones demise. More than likely there was something else wrong with it before you purchased it. Sometimes unfortunately we just never know - some are just not meant to make it. When you bought the snake, did you question the breeder as to previous health? Eating well, no regurges? Shedding ok etc? I know if I purchase a snake at a show from a breeder I do not know I always ask at least some basic questions to get an idea of the health of the snake. Hopefully, the person giving you the info actually knows and is honest about it - although there are on occasion some unscrupulous people who will just tell you what you want to hear to make the sale.

I apologize if I missed this - but what morph was it that passed? With some of my lighter colored snakes (snows, blizzards etc), sometimes you can see the gall bladder which is a darker color against their outer skin. When they die, I believe (IIRC) that is the internal organ that you might see turn really green. It is natural.

 

[wade]

Natalie, hang in there. As said above, I don’t think you did anything that would cause the death of the snake. I am impressed with you determination to learn here. Don’t get discouraged by people who tend to be a little to quick to criticize. You’ll do fine. There is a wealth of information to be had here if you will stick around long enough.

I’m sorry you lost the snake. I hope you enjoy the other two for a long time.

 

[Candachan]

Even if they knocked over the water, one night without it wouldn't have hurt them, babies go through 24 hour shipping without water just fine, so I think you'd be alright since it was an emergency. Just something to keep in mind for the future.

I know that I come down hard on people that cohab but I will admit that I don't think it caused the death of your baby. Sometimes hatchlings just up and die and it can be really heartbreaking.

 

[BloodyBaroness]

I honestly do not think a few hours of co-habbing played a big role in this snake's death. There could have been a number of things working against the baby. I'm very sorry for your loss.

Please do stick around and try to let the comments roll off your back. People jump the gun and forget we all have to start somewhere.

 

[incandescent]

I spoke with the breeder through email this morning, and he said it was likely that overheating caused the death. Apparently that has something to do with the post-mortem rupture of a gall-bladder? I'll admit that I didn't follow the entire rationale, but it's possible that she was too warm. I bought the heating pad that I was told was the best for my purposes (ReptiTherm UTH, approximately 2 feet long and 8 inches wide, running underneath all three tanks), but there didn't seem to be any way to set a temperature on it. I'd been turning it on and off every hour or so because it felt warm to the touch and there was a bit of condensation on the plastic from (I'm assuming) the water bowl. I don't have a light dimmer yet (I've heard that's the best option?), so I was trying to do it manually. I also gave them wooden dowels propped up against the side of the container at a gentle slope so they could get off the floor if it was too hot, but only the amelanistic Kismet seems to enjoy it (she's up there right now, actually). I'm going to try to find a light dimmer this evening after class. I didn't see anything that would serve that function at PetSmart, but I imagine WalMart would have it in the hardware department. I'll check there. I know we sell a day/night power strip at PetSmart, but I think that's more for aquarium lights, etc -- I don't think you can individually adjust each plug, just say when the whole thing goes on and off.

I've moved the heater so it's under less of the tank now (~1/3 rather than a full half). They're both still snuggled on the hot side, though, so I guess it can't be too bad.

@ArpeggioAngel: She was a golddust motley, and her stomach was a light cream color. I actually think it might have been Kismet, the amel, who had the "dark spot" the day before. She just ate last night, so I don't want to disturb her to check (though she's doing a great job of "disturbing" herself -- I swear this snake does aerobics). My biology-major boyfriend thinks I probably saw the outline of the amel's liver. It was in roughly the same spot as the gall bladder, but it looked dark, not green -- purple-ish black, maybe.

Thanks to everyone for being understanding. I didn't mean to snap at you all last night. I guess I was just a little tense. No one wants to hear that they may have killed a pet, particularly when they don't know enough to be certain that they haven't. I didn't intend to leave the forum, even if you had tried to make a spectacle of me -- I know a source of information when I see it. I probably would have sulked for a while and lurked without posting while trying to figure out answers to my questions through Search-Bar Yoga (the process of entering almost-identical-but-slightly-different-from-last-time criteria and hoping the gods of Google will produce a relevant article for once).